Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Douglas Summers]

Four variations:

nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within them.”
nor will you say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
nor will you say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within them.”​

Choose carefully, but I'm pretty sure Jesus said exactly what He wanted to say, even if it's not what you/they want to hear. What I find ironic is how the futurist won't be satisfied until he can ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’.

Your Kingdom of God? If the Kingdom of God is within us? We have shown nothing that would draw one to rejoice or have comfort as Christ did, with the pride that we know so much, but are only prideful in our so called knowledge. If the Kingdom of God is within them? They have made a miserable ungodly kingdom of continual decay (look around you)! (The evil and disgusting Popes that ruled with heinous acts, The Puritans who burned women that they decided were a witch, The religious Southern States that saw nothing wrong with owning and dehumanizing men, women and children as nothing more than a commodity. Just to name a few.
When Christ said, "The Kingdom of God was within you", Do you think the self righteous, prideful and damning Israeli religious leaders standing there rejecting Christ had the Kingdom of God within them? If you do, then that would make us just like the Israeli religious leaders (rejected by God!) (Luke 17:20-22) The Kingdom of Heaven was not within them! It was within the midst of them, The Christ who stood before them! For where ever Christ is, therefore is the Kingdom (Luke 17:22) (22-37). The Kingdom of God is not visible by material vision, but by the rule of Christ. And this will be the constitution and rule of the Kingdom of God (Matthews chapters 4, 5, 6, and 7) Please take the time to study them. This is the Kingdom by Christ, The Son of David, as promised(Gen. 12:1-3) (Rom. 15:8-13) The Lord tells us to pray for the Kingdom to come, therefore it is not here yet. Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God, therefore we have not inherited yet. So what kingdom are we sharing with people? Your idea of the Kingdom of God? All of these so called Christian that are running our government hinder the Gospel, a counterfeit gospel of man. The pastors, preachers, priest who's gospel is to build church buildings of monumental extravagant architectural wonders and to prosper financially and famously as somebody, but not to be like Christ, but to make themselves as above Christ (pride) Just like Satan. We need to be humbled ourselves before and as Christ instead of selling our idea of the Scriptures and denominations, thinking they are at favor with God. (Hebrews Chapter 12) Read it.

 

[for_his_glory]

I was in agreement with you until this part, about a second and third stage and two "appearances" of Christ.

No such scripture as two "more" appearances of Christ, as there are two total.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

The parousia, "coming" of the Lord is when all those who are His will be resurrected from the dead.

His coming is after the tribulation.

The resurrection and rapture are one event that takes place at His coming.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4;15-17


This is describing the coming of the Lord.

The only and final coming of the Lord, which is called the Day of the Lord or the Day of christ.

The rapture of those who are alive and remain is at the coming of the Lord, just a moment after the resurrection of all the dead in Christ.

This event at the coming of the Lord is known as the gathering, because he gathers all His people together, both those who are alive and remain, as well as the dead in Christ.


This is what Christ taught.
This is what the Apostles taught.


Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Caught up together with then refers to all of Christ's people; Both the living and the dead in Christ.

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:20-24


JLB

For some reason I could not find this post from Rondmon as it must be buried somewhere so I will tag your post that he can read my reply as you and I stand in agreement with each other on this.

Like you JLB, I too was with him until he started describing all these different stages. So many, like myself at one time, are caught up in all those Pretrib books, websites and TV shows that are out there as they believe everything that comes from the pulpit as their ears are being tickled, but their hearts deprived from truth. This is why I started this thread to show what scripture actually says about the second coming of Christ. I use to believe, but when so many gave Rev Chapter 4 as proof scripture I found nothing there that spoke of any pretrib rapture so I started questioning the whole teaching on this and started to do my own digging into scripture for the past 18 years and here is my nutshell version of the second coming of Christ and hope that Rondmon sees this.

Jesus rose from the grave, appeared to His disciples and many others and then ascended up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God, Mark 16:1-20. This was the first time, or first coming of Jesus as He appeared to many including His disciples after He rose from the grave. The second coming of Christ can be found in Rev 19 where He descends down from the third heaven, where God sits on the throne, to the first heaven that is air (Earth's atmosphere). We who are in Christ and He in us who are alive and those who sleep in the grave are then caught up to the clouds in the first resurrection, Rev 20:6, and transformed into our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air as the marriage of the Lamb has come and we have made ourselves ready to join our Groom, 1Corinthians 15:50-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:7-9. We then return back down to earth with Jesus as His army that are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white, Rev 19:7-9, as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives and makes an end to all abominations here on earth just by speaking the words that go forth like a sharp sword. God then purifies this old heaven and earth as it will pass away and become new again and New Jerusalem will be established here on Earth.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Here is my question to all those who believe in a Pretrib Rapture. According to this scripture no one will ascend up to heaven where God sits on His throne so is man wrong or is God wrong in saying this? When Jesus returns in the air and takes us up to heaven this would make three comings of Christ with the first one when He rose from the grave and came back as He appeared to the disciples after being resurrected, the second coming in the air and then a third coming to plant His feet here on earth to make an end of all abominations. It's not scriptural.

 

[JLB]

For some reason I could not find this post from Rondmon as it must be buried somewhere so I will tag your post that he can read my reply as you and I stand in agreement with each other on this.

Like you JLB, I too was with him until he started describing all these different stages. So many, like myself at one time, are caught up in all those Pretrib books, websites and TV shows that are out there as they believe everything that comes from the pulpit as their ears are being tickled, but their hearts deprived from truth. This is why I started this thread to show what scripture actually says about the second coming of Christ. I use to believe, but when so many gave Rev Chapter 4 as proof scripture I found nothing there that spoke of any pretrib rapture so I started questioning the whole teaching on this and started to do my own digging into scripture for the past 18 years and here is my nutshell version of the second coming of Christ and hope that Rondmon sees this.

Jesus rose from the grave, appeared to His disciples and many others and then ascended up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God, Mark 16:1-20. This was the first time, or first coming of Jesus as He appeared to many including His disciples after He rose from the grave. The second coming of Christ can be found in Rev 19 where He descends down from the third heaven, where God sits on the throne, to the first heaven that is air (Earth's atmosphere). We who are in Christ and He in us who are alive and those who sleep in the grave are then caught up to the clouds in the first resurrection, Rev 20:6, and transformed into our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air as the marriage of the Lamb has come and we have made ourselves ready to join our Groom, 1Corinthians 15:50-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:7-9. We then return back down to earth with Jesus as His army that are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white, Rev 19:7-9, as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives and makes an end to all abominations here on earth just by speaking the words that go forth like a sharp sword. God then purifies this old heaven and earth as it will pass away and become new again and New Jerusalem will be established here on Earth.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Here is my question to all those who believe in a Pretrib Rapture. According to this scripture no one will ascend up to heaven where God sits on His throne so is man wrong or is God wrong in saying this? When Jesus returns in the air and takes us up to heaven this would make three comings of Christ with the first one when He rose from the grave and came back as He appeared to the disciples after being resurrected, the second coming in the air and then a third coming to plant His feet here on earth to make an end of all abominations. It's not scriptural.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

In verse 17, we see that all of Christ's people, both living and dead, meaning both those who are in heaven (Rev 19) and those who are on earth (alive and remain) are gathered together, at His coming.

This is the second coming.

Everywhere you see this word associated with the resurrection, it is the second coming, which is called the Day of the Lord, or the Day of Christ.

He appeared once and He will appear a second time.., there is no such thing as a third coming.

The resurrection of the dead takes place at the second coming.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27


Read it...

and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

That the resurrection and rapture.

The gathering.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

In verse 17, we see that all of Christ's people, both living and dead, meaning both those who are in heaven (Rev 19) and those who are on earth (alive and remain) are gathered together, at His coming.

This is the second coming.

Everywhere you see this word associated with the resurrection, it is the second coming, which is called the Day of the Lord, or the Day of Christ.

He appeared once and He will appear a second time.., there is no such thing as a third coming.

The resurrection of the dead takes place at the second coming.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Mark 13:24-27


Read it...

and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

That the resurrection and rapture.

The gathering.


JLB

I just said there is no third coming of Jesus, but only replying as an agreement with your post and responding to what Rondmon had said about the different stages that would make Jesus come back three different times as what he said about the different stages is taking scripture out of context to make it what one wants it to say.

 

[JLB]

I just said there is no third coming of Jesus, but only replying as an agreement with your post and responding to what Rondmon had said about the different stages that would make Jesus come back three different times as what he said about the different stages is taking scripture out of context to make it what one wants it to say.

Ok. Sorry.

 

[for_his_glory]

Ok. Sorry.

No problem as it can be confusing at times

 

[Douglas Summers]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Here is my question to all those who believe in a Pretrib Rapture. According to this scripture no one will ascend up to heaven where God sits on His throne so is man wrong or is God wrong in saying this? When Jesus returns in the air and takes us up to heaven this would make three comings of Christ with the first one when He rose from the grave and came back as He appeared to the disciples after being resurrected, the second coming in the air and then a third coming to plant His feet here on earth to make an end of all abominations. It's not scriptural.

No man HAS ever ascend to heaven. This means flesh and blood, But Enoch and Elijah ascended to heaven, but they never descended like Christ, for no man needs to ascend to heaven in the flesh and then descend to speak for God, for Christ is the one who is the Son of God to represent God on the earth to man. So therefore when He speaks, He speaks of Heavenly things that He knows. (John 5:17-47) ..He is the exact representation of the Father, and if you do not believe what Christ says about heavenly things, then believe Christ by His works if you want proof (John 14:10-12) So there is only ONE that speaks of heavenly things that you can believe for sure.....that ascended and descended Lord Jesus Christ. Make no mistake about it, once His body is complete (the fullness of the Gentiles) (Rom. 11:13-31) ( Acts 1513-18) He will call out His body before hand. If you know God, or rather known by God.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[Sinthesis]

For where ever Christ is, therefore is the Kingdom (Luke 17:22) (22-37). The Kingdom of God is not visible by material vision, but by the rule of Christ. And this will be the constitution and rule of the Kingdom of God (Matthews chapters 4, 5, 6, and 7)

Don't you have Jesus in your heart? Don't you let Him rule your life?

Mat 18:20 - For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.​

 

[for_his_glory]

No man HAS ever ascend to heaven. This means flesh and blood, But Enoch and Elijah ascended to heaven, but they never descended like Christ, for no man needs to ascend to heaven in the flesh and then descend to speak for God, for Christ is the one who is the Son of God to represent God on the earth to man. So therefore when He speaks, He speaks of Heavenly things that He knows. (John 5:17-47) ..He is the exact representation of the Father, and if you do not believe what Christ says about heavenly things, then believe Christ by His works if you want proof (John 14:10-12) So there is only ONE that speaks of heavenly things that you can believe for sure.....that ascended and descended Lord Jesus Christ. Make no mistake about it, once His body is complete (the fullness of the Gentiles) (Rom. 11:13-31) ( Acts 1513-18) He will call out His body before hand. If you know God, or rather known by God.

In Christ
Douglas Summers

If Enoch and Elijah ascended to the third heaven were God sits on His throne then this makes what is said in John 3:13 a lie as flesh and blood can not enter into the third heaven where God sits on His throne.

Enoch, Moses and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach that when they were seen (not Enoch) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 says we who have died are only asleep unto the coming of the Lord in the clouds and those who are asleep before us who are still alive will be taken up first and we who are alive will meet them in the clouds.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
(Does not say where God took him)

Heb 11:5 by faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Deu 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Don't you have Jesus in your heart? Don't you let Him rule your life?

Mat 18:20 - For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.​

[/QU Of course, I was born again, I received His Spirit when God drew me to Him. I was 16 then. Rule is not what I would call it, it is Christ's Spirit working in me, not I. Christ does not give the flesh ability, but Christ works through you by the new man. We (the flesh) have a tendency to run ahead of the Lord. Many think by THEIR knowledge and work that they are doing Christ's work. Christ is the head of the Church, we are the body. The body reacts to the decisions of the mind. They should see Christ not you. They should be praising Christ as many did in the NT by the works of God through the Apostles. Study the Acts of the Apostles , most of what the Apostles did, the people praised the Lord for, and rightly so....Christ in you Amen.

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you believe Jesus is the King of Afghanistan, and Governs that nation, whereby everyone obeys the law of Christ in Afghanistan?
Does everyone in Saudi Arabia worship Jesus Christ, and confess Him as their Lord and King?

That there are those who are in open rebellion against the king is not evidence that he is not the King whether the country is Afghanistan or the USA (porn capital of the world where we murder 3000 infants a day for fun and profit.)
Jesus is the king of heaven and earth, right now, according to Mat 28:18.
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."
That the king is patient with his enemies simply reveals his mercy.
2Pe 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

There is an explanation as to why so much of the world does not follow Jesus; it's found at Mat 28:19-20.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."

We have not done that.

In the USA, where there's churches "on every corner", we haven't even done that in our own neighborhoods.

So the fact that the people of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are not submitted to the king is not evidence that Jesus is not the king right now. Rather, it is evidence that those who call themselves by His Name have not "Let our light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Mat 5:16 We probably shouldn't blame our neighbors if our witness has been less than convincing. Much of the world has been distinctly underwhelmed by our "Christian witness."

just my 2 kopecks

iakov the fool

 

[reba]

 

[Douglas Summers]

That there are those who are in open rebellion against the king is not evidence that he is not the King whether the country is Afghanistan or the USA (porn capital of the world where we murder 3000 infants a day for fun and profit.)
Jesus is the king of heaven and earth, right now, according to Mat 28:18.
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."
That the king is patient with his enemies simply reveals his mercy.
2Pe 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

There is an explanation as to why so much of the world does not follow Jesus; it's found at Mat 28:19-20.
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."

We have not done that.

In the USA, where there's churches "on every corner", we haven't even done that in our own neighborhoods.

So the fact that the people of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are not submitted to the king is not evidence that Jesus is not the king right now. Rather, it is evidence that those who call themselves by His Name have not "Let our light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Mat 5:16 We probably shouldn't blame our neighbors if our witness has been less than convincing. Much of the world has been distinctly underwhelmed by our "Christian witness."

just my 2 kopecks

iakov the fool

Amen.

 

[n2thelight]

The argument could be made for anytime between the baptism of Jesus and his resurrection.


Thought that would be your proof.

2Pe_3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (ESV)

First, notice that this is a simile--the "as" tells us this--which means that Peter is not saying that a thousand years is a day. Second, as God is timeless, Peter could just have easily said that "with the Lord one day is as a billion years, and a billion years as one day." The number there is irrelevant as a literal length of time. Third, it ignores the usage of such numbers in Scripture:

Psa_50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. (ESV)

That is God speaking. Do you think that God only owns "the cattle on a thousand hills" and not the rest of the cattle on thousands of other hills? That is what your argument leads us to. But we know that God owns all the cattle on earth, those on a million hills and all those not on hills at all. The point here is that the number 1000 is just a large, round number signifying that God owns everything.

Similarly, when Peter uses it and when John uses it in Revelation, we have clear biblical justification for understanding one thousand years as being an indeterminate period of time, probably much longer than one thousand years.


I have just given good reasons as to why this is not the case.

Beg to differ so,can you please tell me when the millennium started....

 

[Free]

Beg to differ so,can you please tell me when the millennium started....

Likely with the resurrection of Jesus which inaugurated his kingdom.

 

[Jim Parker]

Similarly, when Peter uses it and when John uses it in Revelation, we have clear biblical justification for understanding one thousand years as being an indeterminate period of time, probably much longer than one thousand years.

People consistently overlook the fact that Jesus, in person, after the resurrection and before the ascension, said "All authority in heaven and earth have been given to me." (Mat 28:18) That is a clear statement that He was, from at least that moment until now, the ruler of heaven and earth.

As for the thousand years being "as a day",
Psa 90:4 (NKJV)
For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it is past,
And like a watch in the night.

A watch is four hours.

So much for proof-texting how long 1000 years will be when found in apocalyptic literature.
I believe the best understanding of 1000 years is "a long time."

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

To be honest, I know in my knower, that the Kingdom of God is not yet come unto us, so I am not going to study on it too hard,

The kingdom has not yet come in its fullness but it is present in the church. We are His body.
And you don't have a "knower." (sorry )

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Mormons support their beliefs in a similar way.

That is unfortunately true.

 

[Free]

People consistently overlook the fact that Jesus, in person, after the resurrection and before the ascension, said "All authority in heaven and earth have been given to me." (Mat 28:18) That is a clear statement that He was, from at least that moment until now, the ruler of heaven and earth.

As for the thousand years being "as a day",
Psa 90:4 (NKJV)
For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it is past,
And like a watch in the night.

A watch is four hours.

So much for proof-texting how long 1000 years will be when found in apocalyptic literature.
I believe the best understanding of 1000 years is "a long time."

iakov the fool

Exactly. As to Christ, I have pointed out that he also said "now the ruler of this world is cast out," just prior to his death. Put that all together and we have Satan's authority being removed and Jesus being given all authority, and it centres around his death and resurrection.

 

[n2thelight]

Likely with the resurrection of Jesus which inaugurated his kingdom.

Should'nt satan be bound at this time,with no influence on the nations?