Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Rondmon]

Mormons support their beliefs in a similar way.

Good, are you saying you are a Mormon ? No of course not, you have to come with a snide remark, to try and denigrate someone else. That is not my game, you or anyone else can believe as you please, more power to you, I have been a Christian over 30 years and a preacher for almost 25 years. I am not into arguing or belittling, that's not my bag.

If you understand what the Holy Spirit is, and I guess you do, then you would understand my statement. The Holy Spirit doesn't lead us wrong, some people are just not led by the Holy Spirit, like maybe those Mormons.

 

[Sinthesis]

Good, are you saying you are a Mormon ? No of course not, you have to come with a snide remark, to try and denigrate someone else. That is not my game, you or anyone else can believe as you please, more power to you, I have been a Christian over 30 years and a preacher for almost 25 years. I am not into arguing or belittling, that's not my bag.

If you understand what the Holy Spirit is, and I guess you do, then you would understand my statement. The Holy Spirit doesn't lead us wrong, some people are just not led by the Holy Spirit, like maybe those Mormons.

I'm not trying to denigrate you, but when you say you 'know in your knower', I am reminded of Mormons appealing to a 'burning in their bosom'. It doesn't come across as an effective way to support any belief.

Christians have a tendency to appeal to the authority of the Holy Spirit for confirmation of certain non-essential beliefs. However, this is problematic when various well meaning Christians each appeal to the Holy Spirit for confirmation of certain conflicting non-essential beliefs.

 

[Endtime_Survivors]

However, He also said... Pray thy kingdom come...

Hi JLB.
I have a slightly different view of this verse. He goes on to say, "thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven". I think the phrase which says, "thy kingdom come" is in the context of his followers showing the kingdom of Heaven through their behavior as they act on God's will. In Luke 8:1 Jesus is described as travelling from place to place with his disciples, preaching the gospel and showing the Kingdom of Heaven.

I don't think God's kingdom is yet established on the Earth in the sense that he has taken authority away from Satan, but I do believe that, insofar as we act on the values of Heaven, we are like little bubbles of the Kingdom moving around the earth. I think this is why Jesus told the discilples to say, "the Kingdom of Heaven has come near to you" when rebuking people for rejecting the message.

 

[JLB]

I don't think God's kingdom is yet established on the Earth in the sense that he has taken authority away from Satan, but I do believe that, insofar as we act on the values of Heaven, we are like little bubbles of the Kingdom moving around the earth. I think this is why Jesus told the discilples to say, "the Kingdom of Heaven has come near to you" when rebuking people for rejecting the message.

Yes I agree.

The kingdom of God is reality, yet is invisible to us now, though we see it's influence in our lives everyday.

The Day will come when the kingdom of God will have fully manifested in this natural realm on earth, whereby we will see Him, in whom we have believed and have faith in.

His physical return and kingdom will consume and remove all the kingdoms of "this world", just the way it is in Heaven, having complete dominion and rule.

For now we are in the process of subduing and having dominion, in part, whereas on that Day the subduing and complete dominion will have taken place over the whole earth.

IOW the kingdom of God is still coming.

When it has fully come, then there will not be one square inch of planet earth that will be shared with the devil or his wicked people.

Not one inch!


JLB

 

[reba]

. . .

I don't think God's kingdom is yet established on the Earth in the sense that he has taken authority away from Satan, but I do believe that, insofar as we act on the values of Heaven, we are like little bubbles of the Kingdom moving around the earth. I think this is why Jesus told the discilples to say, "the Kingdom of Heaven has come near to you" when rebuking people for rejecting the message.

You say the above Jesus said this

Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 

[JLB]

You say the above Jesus said this

Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:18-20


The way His kingdom advances is by preaching the Gospel, saying The kingdom of God is at hand [near].


The Day will come [future] when this Gospel of the kingdom will not be preached because the kingdom of God will have subdued all the kingdoms of this world.


Amen.


JLB

 

[reba]

Sad words coming for some one who says "plain words " often

 

[JLB]

Sad words coming for some one who says "plain words " often

I'm sorry you think it's sad that God's Kingdom is still coming, and still subduing, and still overthrowing the kingdoms of this world.

To me that is good news.

Very bad news would be to think that the world we are living in presently is the way it will be in the future.


Very bad indeed.


JLB

 

[Free]

I am well versed on the bible, we just believe differently. God's kingdom is not yet over this world. The bible never contradicts itself, Paul stated the god of this world is Satan. You say Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is "Coming" to you. Coming is a verb. Shows that it is in motion, or on the way. Jesus was here, so the King was at hand.

That is not what I said. What I said, and the verse I gave to support it, is that Jesus clearly states, "the kingdom of God has come upon you." Not "coming upon" but "come upon". The kingdom of God had arrived, it was there.

I don't really get into the minute verbiage of lingo for many reasons. 1. We do not know the exact words Christ uttered, this is truth, these writers wrote from memory, or wrote in approximation what Jesus said, I am sure they did not copy him word for word exactly, else the bible would have 20 feet wide. God showed me a long time ago, the Holy Spirit has to be relied upon to gather the deep truths. 2. The Translations are nowhere near perfect. We have to use the Holy Spirit to guide us unto the truths, and we have to put everything together, like a mosaic, if there are any parts that don't fit, something is wrong, anytime we have verses tat contradict, we have to go back to work, because God never contradicts Himself. Man just has an understanding problem.

To be honest, I know in my knower, that the Kingdom of God is not yet come unto us, so I am not going to study on it too hard, like I said, we just disagree, something I know via just the Holy Spirit, I can't explain why, somethings I just know in my knower.

I will not say you are wrong, I just don't get into that line of back and forth. I will just say that God has led me in a different direction.

God Bless.

Much of what you say here is highly, highly problematic. Your first point completely undermines the Gospels and ignores what Luke and John say in theirs:

Luk 1:1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us,
Luk 1:2 just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us,
Luk 1:3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
Luk 1:4 that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught. (ESV)

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (ESV)

Joh 21:24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true.
Joh 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. (ESV)

So we can be sure that what we have is accurate but we also know that it isn't all that Jesus did and said.

As to your second point, while we do ask the Holy Spirit to bring to light things in Scripture, to help us discern truth and error, this does not mean that we can't come to the truth of a matter through prayerful study and the use of reason. The problem with people believing as you do is that any number of such people can, and do, disagree on a number of things, but each believe the Holy Spirit led them to that conclusion. So either we have to accept that the Holy Spirit leads people to contradictory "truths" or realize that there is more to it than that.

It is quite significant that you don't want to study too hard because you just "know in [your] knower." The Bible commands us to study but you are essentially pitting following the Holy Spirit against studying. But it not either/or, it is both/and.

 

[Free]

I'm sorry you think it's sad that God's Kingdom is still coming, and still subduing, and still overthrowing the kingdoms of this world.

To me that is good news.

Very bad news would be to think that the world we are living in presently is the way it will be in the future.


Very bad indeed.


JLB

Of course, no one, including reba is saying either of those things.

 

[Free]

What does these scriptures have to do with the rapture and second coming, when Jesus will return and put an end to all rule and authority, in which the kingdoms of this world will become the kingdoms of our Lord.

The passages reba gave clearly show Jesus teaching that the kingdom of God had come, it had started.

This scripture from Daniel makes this crystal clear.

34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. Daniel 2:34-35

All the kingdoms of this world were crushed and completely removed and no trace of them was to be found.

In the days whereby 10 kings will rule the 10 "regions" or kingdoms that the earth is becoming divided up into, which is taking place right now, and is typified by the ten toes on the image, in which is struck by the stone that is cut out without hands.

And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”
Daniel 2:44-45

In the days of these kings... The stone that is cut out without hands, Jesus, will strike the ten toes, then the stone that was cut out without hands will become a great kingdom that will consume all the others and it will fill the earth.

You say that this scripture is crystal clear and yet there are a couple of very important points you are missing. First is that there already have been four kingdoms: the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, and the Roman Empire. All these were consecutive empires, each taking over from the previous. Second, the stone becomes a mountain; it is not a mountain that crushes. Third, it is during the Roman Empire that Jesus lived, speaking of the kingdom of God having come upon his listeners. Fourth, it is quite interesting that in Matt. 21:44 and Luke 20:18, Jesus speaks of himself as a stone that will crush those on whom it falls.

He will put an end to all rule and authority.

Of course he will. No one is saying he won't.

For now the kingdom of God is within us.

Please post Scripture to support this.

 

[Free]

I don't think God's kingdom is yet established on the Earth in the sense that he has taken authority away from Satan, but I do believe that, insofar as we act on the values of Heaven, we are like little bubbles of the Kingdom moving around the earth.

And yet just prior to his death Jesus said that:

Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. (ESV)

Joh 16:11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. (ESV)

And then after his death:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (ESV)

Then there are the numerous times that he states the kingdom of God had come upon his listeners. This was seen in the signs he was doing; it was tangible. He also states in a couple of parables that it would be a growing kingdom--starting very small but becoming very large.

God's kingdom will one day be fully established on the earth, without a doubt, but we can see from Scripture that it has been inaugurated, it has begun. In the meantime we are to be about kingdom business, doing the things God wants us to do to spread his kingdom, to help it grow until that time Christ returns to bring it to completion.

 

[williamt]

Thanks for sharing, and welcome to CF.Net.

Here's my two cents, and it comes with scripture.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

...we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The resurrection/rapture is one event, whereby both are caught up together to meet the Lord in the clouds at His coming.


His coming to gather His people, also destroys the antichrist.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8

His coming is with His saints in heaven, and for his saints on earth, to gather them together at the resurrection/rapture, on His way back to Jerusalem, to take His place on earth as King and destroy the antichrist.

We shall forever be with Him.



JLB

Let us look at the events Paul described. First he noted: “The Lord Himself will descend from heaven.… And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:16–17). Here we see that the purpose of the dead rising and our being caught up into the sky is not to go away but to meet Jesus as He is returning. He will not be taking us out of the world to stay. He will be lifting us up to participate with Him in His triumphal return.

When the Roman legions were dispatched to go into a foreign country on a military campaign, their standards bore the letters SPQR, an abbreviation for Senatus Populus Que Romanus, which means “the Senate and the people of Rome.” It was understood in Rome that the conquests of the military were not simply for the politicians who governed, but for all the citizens of the city.

The army might be gone for a campaign of two or three years. Finally, the soldiers would return, leading captives in chains. They would camp outside the city and send in a messenger to alert the Senate and the people that the legions had returned. When that news arrived, the people began to prepare to receive the conquering heroes. When everything was ready, a trumpet was sounded. With that, the citizens of the city went out to where the army was camped and joined the soldiers in marching into the city. The idea was that they had participated in the triumph of their conquering army.

This is exactly the language that Paul used here. He was saying that when Jesus comes back in conquering power, believers, both dead and alive, will be caught up in the air to meet Him, not to stay up there, but to join His return in triumph, to participate in His exaltation.

Source: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/what-is-the-rapture/

 

[reba]

I'm sorry you think it's sad that God's Kingdom is still coming, and still subduing, and still overthrowing the kingdoms of this world.

To me that is good news.

Very bad news would be to think that the world we are living in presently is the way it will be in the future.


Very bad indeed.


JLB

Really JLB that is a lame attempt to twist my words.. Tell ya what i have a brother that would agree with ya...

 

[Sinthesis]

Let us look at the events Paul described. First he noted: “The Lord Himself will descend from heaven.… And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:16–17). Here we see that the purpose of the dead rising and our being caught up into the sky is not to go away but to meet Jesus as He is returning. He will not be taking us out of the world to stay. He will be lifting us up to participate with Him in His triumphal return.

When the Roman legions were dispatched to go into a foreign country on a military campaign, their standards bore the letters SPQR, an abbreviation for Senatus Populus Que Romanus, which means “the Senate and the people of Rome.” It was understood in Rome that the conquests of the military were not simply for the politicians who governed, but for all the citizens of the city.

The army might be gone for a campaign of two or three years. Finally, the soldiers would return, leading captives in chains. They would camp outside the city and send in a messenger to alert the Senate and the people that the legions had returned. When that news arrived, the people began to prepare to receive the conquering heroes. When everything was ready, a trumpet was sounded. With that, the citizens of the city went out to where the army was camped and joined the soldiers in marching into the city. The idea was that they had participated in the triumph of their conquering army.

This is exactly the language that Paul used here. He was saying that when Jesus comes back in conquering power, believers, both dead and alive, will be caught up in the air to meet Him, not to stay up there, but to join His return in triumph, to participate in His exaltation.

Source: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/what-is-the-rapture/

That Roman tradition reflects one of Israel's:

1Sa 30:21 ¶ And David came to the two hundred men, which were so faint that they could not follow David, whom they had made also to abide at the brook Besor: and they went forth to meet David, and to meet the people that were with him: and when David came near to the people, he saluted them.
1Sa 30:22 - Then answered all the wicked men and men of Belial, of those that went with David, and said, Because they went not with us, we will not give them ought of the spoil that we have recovered, save to every man his wife and his children, that they may lead them away, and depart.
1Sa 30:23 - Then said David, Ye shall not do so, my brethren, with that which the LORD hath given us, who hath preserved us, and delivered the company that came against us into our hand.
1Sa 30:24 - For who will hearken unto you in this matter? but as his part isthat goeth down to the battle, so shall his part be that tarrieth by the stuff: they shall part alike.
1Sa 30:25 - And it was so from that day forward, that he made it a statute and an ordinance for Israel unto this day.​

 

[JLB]

Really JLB that is a lame attempt to twist my words.. Tell ya what i have a brother that would agree with ya...

Reba, I think your a good sister in the Lord, it's just a shame what Preterism has done to damage the Church.


JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

I don't like to argue about this with Brothers so I will put my 2 cents with in and move on. But Rev. 19, is happening at the same time as the Seals/Trumps/Vial judgments. We are in Heaven marrying the Lamb, put on white linen, which is the righteousness of the Saints, ride White Horses back to earth with Jesus, where the Anti-Christ/Beast his Kings and their Armies await us ON EARTH.....STILL.

It is true, Jesus does come back Immediately After the Tribulation, but with the Raptured Saints. And the Anti-Christ is revealed before the Second Coming, but not before the Rapture. Also, after we are Raptured to marry the Lamb, there will be people who refuse the mark of the beast, and become Christians/Saints. These are the Saints that the Beast is given the power to overcome, because they must endure until the end, because like the five foolish virgins, their Lamps were not lit ( they were not filled with the Holy Spirit when the bridegroom came, thus they were in the dark). The KEY, imho, is the 70th Week. We understand this week to be 7 years. And a Jewish Marriage Feast is traditionally one week.

God Bless, that's my take, but I will not argue about it. It is just my belief. AMEN

Hi Rondmon,
It is mine too as the Scriptures teach. If anyone is paying attention to the world and the United States scraping our Constitution, The war against Christians, but allowing strange fire to takes it's place. Where evil is well spoken of and applauded, but righteousness is evil spoken of and discouraged...and even made as committing a criminal act (displaying the Ten Commandment for instance) (praying in schools, not allowed to mention Our Lord and Savior) But being taught from the Koran, Teaching homosexuality as normal, promoting and teaching children (in grade school) how to have sex!!!) A government that are habitual liars and self serving and stealing from the working class. The list goes on and will continue to get worse. When the body of Christ is complete, Called the fullness of the Gentiles, Then shall the Lord gather us up as we meet Him in the air that we should not go through the Test or temptation (7 year tribulation) that shall come upon all the world. (Rev. 3:10-13) I wonder what those who teach no rapture will explain the event then?

 

[JLB]

Let us look at the events Paul described. First he noted: “The Lord Himself will descend from heaven.… And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:16–17). Here we see that the purpose of the dead rising and our being caught up into the sky is not to go away but to meet Jesus as He is returning. He will not be taking us out of the world to stay. He will be lifting us up to participate with Him in His triumphal return.

Yes, agreed.

Both the resurrected ones and the raptured ones will be caught up together, at His coming.

All His people will be with Him, as He descends to take His place as the rightful King in Jerusalem, over all the earth.


That is what Paul is describing.

Where people came up with the idea, that the Rapture is before the Resurrection, and separated by 7 years, I will never know, because this is not found in scripture.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The passages reba gave clearly show Jesus teaching that the kingdom of God had come, it had started.

Ok, please show where the kingdom of God is on earth so we can go there.

The kingdom is within us, and is invisible, not being of this world.

However, the Day will come when the kingdom of God, and it's King will be plainly visible, in which every eye will see Him.

He will physically come and put an end all rule and authority.

If all rule and authority has not yet come to an end, then they are still governing this earth.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Please post Scripture to support this.

...nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” Luke 17:21