Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Douglas Summers]

///e

OK
You said he did. In your post 951 you said "Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable. No matter how many times you say it is. Christ knew their names. "
Now you're saying He did not know the rich man.
If Jesus is God (and He is) He knows everybody's name.
The only way He would not know the rich man's name is if the rich man were fictional and the story a parable.

Jim, nothing is hidden from God. Even when He did speak in parables, most of them were prophetic and true. It was to confound the wise man in his own conceit who thought he was above being informed of Spiritual things. Much like the professors in the so called elite ivy league colleges....they know nothing and turn out a copy of what the nothing they are teaching. They are a legend in their own minds. The rich man's name was rich man, and it was not just any rich man, but a "certain" rich man. You are going to have to figure it out for yourself. Christ only knew the man as a rich man, there was never any fellowship. Christ also knew he had the Scriptures of that time, in which had he not, his judgment might have been different.

 

[Jim Parker]

Guess that's your problem,you don't believe Christ rules from earth,yet scripture proves you wrong

Christ will rule from earth at the second coming and his kingdom will have no end. (Nicaean creed)

Thus says the Lord: ‘I will return to Zion, and dwell in the midst of Jerusalem.

Yeah. Jesus already did that 2000 years ago. That verse says nothing about any millennial rule of Christ.

“Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the Lord.

Jesus already did that 2000 years ago. That verse says nothing about any millennial rule of Christ.

“Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you. And the Lord will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem.” (Zechariah 2:10-12)
“… and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, where My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” (Ezekiel 37:26-27)

That will happen according to Rev 21-22

“The Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the Lord filled the temple. Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever.

"Forever" is not the "1000 years" of the millennial reign of Christ. Forever doesn't end after 1000 years.

“To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (Revelation 3:21)

That's already been partially accomplished and will be fully accomplished at the end of the age.
Believers are the body of Christ and Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father right now.
Eph 2:4-6 (RSV) But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

iakov the fool

 

[reba]

He does rule and His kingdom has no end.. is a lot different then He will rule... Jesus is the king he has a kingdom He rules...

 

[Jim Parker]

• Jesus Christ will literally come from Heaven to Earth, with His saints and literally destroy the wicked.
• There will be a literal resurrection of the dead in Christ.
• Those who were literally beheaded for their witness to Christ and the word of God, will sit on literal thrones and reign with the literal Christ for 1000 literal years, which is known as the Day of Rest.

1000 literal years, in which we all will rest with Him on the Seventh [prophetic] Day.

JLB

I am familiar with that view of what Revelation tells us and the application of "1000 years is as a day" and all the rest of that....stuff. It's the kind of "stuff" that gave us the New Advent movement of the early 19th century when they were expecting Jesus to return in 1843 and then 1844. It was widely popular in both England and the USA but Jesus didn't show up according to the predictions of prominent Bible scholars. We got he 7th Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses out of that movement.
Another innovation in pop Christianity from that era was the dispensationalism of John Darby in the UK and popularized by people like Cyrus Scofield in the USA. Like the Unitarianism of the 18th century, it has been received by several denominations as their official understanding of scripture.
Since NOBODY, ANYWHERE in the church taught that in the 1700 years before the 1830's, I don't buy it.
But it "preaches good" and fills the pews. (Particularly if you bring your charts!)

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Much like the professors in the so called elite ivy league colleges....they know nothing and turn out a copy of what the nothing they are teaching.

I have a friend who is an associate pastor at a Nazarene Church. He's studying toward a doctorate and is taking a philosophy course right now. He is constantly disgusted with the pure garbage that the philosophy professor spouts.

The rich man's name was rich man, and it was not just any rich man, but a "certain" rich man.

That identifies the passage a parable.

 

[JLB]

I am familiar with that view of what Revelation tells us and the application of "1000 years is as a day" and all the rest of that....stuff. It's the kind of "stuff" that gave us the New Advent movement of the early 19th century when they were expecting Jesus to return in 1843 and then 1844. It was widely popular in both England and the USA but Jesus didn't show up according to the predictions of prominent Bible scholars. We got he 7th Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses out of that movement.
Another innovation in pop Christianity from that era was the dispensationalism of John Darby in the UK and popularized by people like Cyrus Scofield in the USA. Like the Unitarianism of the 18th century, it has been received by several denominations as their official understanding of scripture.
Since NOBODY, ANYWHERE in the church taught that in the 1700 years before the 1830's, I don't buy it.
But it "preaches good" and fills the pews. (Particularly if you bring your charts!)

iakov the fool

Just point out which of the bullet point statements that I made which you feel is not biblical, and we will discuss them.

• Jesus Christ will literally come from Heaven to Earth, with His saints and literally destroy the wicked.
• There will be a literal resurrection of the dead in Christ.
• Those who were literally beheaded for their witness to Christ and the word of God, will sit on literal thrones and reign with the literal Christ for 1000 literal years, which is known as the Day of Rest.

JLB

 

[JLB]

He does rule and His kingdom has no end.. is a lot different then He will rule... Jesus is the king he has a kingdom He rules...

When He returns, He will remove all rule and authority and He will rule from Jerusalem with all the world under submission to Him and His law.

Something we all are looking forward to.

 

[for_his_glory]

Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable. No matter how many times you say it is. Christ knew their names. People who's theology that does not fit Christ's teaching have to make it irrelevant to their own teachings with explanations like you gave. Of course their body does not go to be with the Lord, it is our Spirit. A new BODY is what we wait for or our HOPE, it is for, a NEW BODY. When Christ comes for The Church, we will be raised with a new body, and those who are alive, their bodies will change in an instant. (Rom. 8:22-25) (1 Cor. 15:51-53) (2 Cor. 5:1-10) We do not yet know what we would be, but when we see Him, we will be like Him. Some day, standing before the Lord He will ask, Did you not know? Did no one tell you? Did you not believe? No man is an island, and no man stands alone in Christ.

Sorry, but it is a parable of the rich man and Lazarus just like all of the parables Jesus taught. How could the rich man literally see Abraham holding and comforting Lazarus while they are in the grave if it's not a parable. You have even given scriptures to that fact and I will also add 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. I am not an island and I do not stand alone nor would I want to in any theology other than what I study in the written word of God and not what is taught in all the universities, seminaries and schools of divinity.

 

[for_his_glory]

///e
Christ also knew he had the Scriptures of that time, in which had he not, his judgment might have been different.

Could you explain this as there were no scriptures at the time of Christ other than what was written in the Torah.

 

[for_his_glory]

When rich men stand at their judgment, The Lord will get out The Book, and their name will not be in it, and He will not know their name except that he was a rich man. Away from me, I do not know you.

God knows the beggars, poor, and downtrodden, They are the meek and the mild, and He knows their names written in the Book of life. They are a nuisance, a bother and an eyesore to the rich. They were Lazarus and the rich man. God knew Lazarus, He did not know the rich man.

Do you really think that a rich man can not be spiritually born again because he is rich or that God does not now every persons name!!!

 

[Douglas Summers]

Sorry, but it is a parable of the rich man and Lazarus just like all of the parables Jesus taught. How could the rich man literally see Abraham holding and comforting Lazarus while they are in the grave if it's not a parable. You have even given scriptures to that fact and I will also add 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. I am not an island and I do not stand alone nor would I want to in any theology other than what I study in the written word of God and not what is taught in all the universities, seminaries and schools of divinity.[/QUOTte
I believe what the Lord has taught me, that's not changing.

 

[Jim Parker]

Just point out which of the bullet point statements that I made which you feel is not biblical, and we will discuss them.

What you have posted are interpretations. Interpretations may or may not be accurate.

Jesus Christ will literally come from Heaven to Earth,

At the end of the age aka: second coming.

with His saints and literally destroy the wicked.

We'll have to wait and see how vision that works out in space-time.

There will be a literal resurrection of the dead in Christ.

There will be a literal resurrection of everyone.

Those who were literally beheaded for their witness to Christ and the word of God, will sit on literal thrones

Rev 20:4 (RSV) Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed.
Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Note the word "also." It separates those who are to judge and those who were beheaded.
Those are two different visions: (1) thrones with judges seated on them and (2) the souls of those who had been beheaded.
The judges on the thrones and the souls appear to be two different groups.

Those who were literally beheaded for their witness to Christ and the word of God, will ... reign with the literal Christ for 1000 literal years

There is only one Christ so it has to be the "literal" Christ.
Christ has already been reigning for literally 2000 years.
Those who are "in Christ Jesus" and have gone before are seated with Christ and reign with Him. (Eph 2:6)

1000 literal years, which is known as the Day of Rest.

Says who? I don't see "the Day of Rest" in the scriptures except with specific reference to the literal Sabbath.

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you really think that a rich man can not be spiritually born again because he is rich or that God does not now every persons name!!!

The conversation is about the specific rich man in the parable, not the general "a rich man."
You are confusing the specific with the general.

 

[JLB]

Rev 20:4 (RSV) Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed.
Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Note the word "also." It separates those who are to judge and those who were beheaded.
Those are two different visions: (1) thrones with judges seated on them and (2) the souls of those who had been beheaded.
The judges on the thrones and the souls appear to be two different groups.

So what's your point.

What does this have to do with the literal return of Jesus Christ, the literal resurrection from the dead, and the literal 1000 years of reigning with Christ?

The are are those literal events mentioned, yet you seem to take it upon yourself to somehow decide that in the midst of the very literal things being mentioned, the 1000 years, which would equal a prophectic Day, the 7th Day of rest, is somehow not literal.

Futhermore you have tried to say, that claiming these vents are literal is likened to the doctrine of Cults such as Jehovah Witnesses.


Here's your post -

I am familiar with that view of what Revelation tells us and the application of "1000 years is as a day" and all the rest of that....stuff. It's the kind of "stuff" that gave us the New Advent movement of the early 19th century when they were expecting Jesus to return in 1843 and then 1844. It was widely popular in both England and the USA but Jesus didn't show up according to the predictions of prominent Bible scholars. We got he 7th Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses out of that movement.
Another innovation in pop Christianity from that era was the dispensationalism of John Darby in the UK and popularized by people like Cyrus Scofield in the USA. Like the Unitarianism of the 18th century, it has been received by several denominations as their official understanding of scripture.
Since NOBODY, ANYWHERE in the church taught that in the 1700 years before the 1830's, I don't buy it.
But it "preaches good" and fills the pews. (Particularly if you bring your charts!)

Here's some "stuff" from Peter, what he taught about the timing of the Lord.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:8-9


Claiming that all of Revelation is just all apocalyptic language and is not literal, is simple a false statement.


Since Jesus will indeed literally return from heaven with His saints and destroy the wicked, and there will be literal resurrection of the literal dead, and the literal devil will be literally bound at that time.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

The are are those literal events mentioned,

They aren't "events." They're "visions."
Until you understand the difference, I see no reason to continue.

 

[JLB]

At the end of the age aka: second coming.

Will this literally happen, or is this just some apocalyptic language?

We'll have to wait and see how vision that works out in space-time.

We'll have to wait and see?

What and see if what Jesus promised us is true or not. I don't don't need to wait and see, I believe He will come with His saints and gather all His people at the resurrection, and destroy the wicked.

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16


and again

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. Revelation 19:19-21


and again

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are aliveand remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3


Jesus returns with His saints and destroys the wicked.


For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.


No wait and see to it, Jesus returns with His saints, and destroys the wicked.


JLB

 

[JLB]

They aren't "events." They're "visions."
Until you understand the difference, I see no reason to continue.

The vision was about what will take place in the future... Literally.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Says who? I don't see "the Day of Rest" in the scriptures except with specific reference to the literal Sabbath.

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. Hebrews 4:1

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. Hebrews 4:6-9


JLB

 

[n2thelight]

He does rule and His kingdom has no end.. is a lot different then He will rule... Jesus is the king he has a kingdom He rules...

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

The above verse means what to you?Are you saying the 7th trump has sounded?

 

[Jim Parker]

Will this literally happen, or is this just some apocalyptic language?

Jesus spoke of the end of the age to his disciples in plain language.
You're conflating apocalyptic visions with plain, non-symbolic, language at Mat 25:31ff.

What and see if what Jesus promised us is true or not.

Don't be absurd.
Now you're confusing your interpretations of scripture with actual scripture.
The question is not whether what Jesus said is true. The question is whether what you THINK He said is true.
We'll have to wait and see which of the various interpretations of the highly-symbolic, apocalyptic language of the apocalyptic portions of scripture is closest to correct.
You do realize that your interpretation is not the only interpretation, right?
You understand that your belief is not the same as God's word, right?

I don't don't need to wait and see, I believe He will come with His saints and gather all His people at the resurrection, and destroy the wicked.

What you believe is not necessarily what was meant by the scriptures on which you base your personal beliefs.

No wait and see to it, Jesus returns with His saints, and destroys the wicked.

We'll see when we see.

This is why I spend very little time in Revelation. It's too open to interpretation and to exploitation by charlatans who want to use the imprecise language of apocalyptic literature to astound and amaze rubes with their "deep knowledge." (You're not doing that.)
When and what and where and how the visions of the Apocalypse unfold will make absolutely no difference to the believer.
The only thing on which Christ explicitly and clearly stated He would base His judgment of mankind is whether or not each of us was merciful.
The merciful inherit the kingdom; the others go to hell.

He won't ask us about whether we understood the visions of the Apocalypse.