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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

markathome said:
Are these talking about the same Harvest?
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YEs.
The time of the harvest is His second coming.
THe wheat and tares will be separated, the wheat gathered into the barn and the tares burnt in the fire.
Compare that to Mat 25 where the "harvest" is separated into sheep and goats. The sheep inherit the kingdom; the goats so to hell.
 
reba said:
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
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Daniel 12:1-4
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
 
Jim Parker said:
The writer of Hebrews was talking about resting FROM WORKS OF THE LAW and entering into God's promised salvation (symbolized by the promised land) by faith and obedience.
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Isaiah 30:15
For thus saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel;
In returning and rest shall ye be saved;
in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength:
and ye would not.
 
Per Matthew the Harvest is Reverse compared to Revelation 14
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Let both grow together until the harvest:
and in the time of harvest
I(Jesus) will say to the reapers, (Jesus is not the Reaper here)
Gather ye together first the tares, Comes last in Revelation 14:19
and bind them in bundles to burn them:
but gather the wheat into my barn. Comes first in Revelation 14:14

Revelation 14 Harvest as described by John given to him from a dream
**************************************************************************************
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion with the army of 144,000
Revelation 14:6 everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth
Revelation 14:8 Babylon is fallen
Revelation 14:9-10 Warning for those who receives the 666

Revelation 14:13 "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth"

1st Harvest by the "like unto the son of man"
Revelation 14:14 one sat on a cloud like unto the son of man having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

2nd Harvest by an "angel"
Revelation 14:17-18 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:19
And the angel <- Not Jesus
thrust in his sickle
into the earth,
and gathered the vine of the earth,
and cast it into the great winepress
of the wrath of God.
Revelation 14:20
And the winepress
was trodden without the city,
and blood came out of the winepress,
even unto the horse bridles,
by the space of a thousand
and six hundred furlongs.




A 1000 years​

Revelation 20:1
And I saw an angel
come down from heaven,
having the key of the bottomless pit
and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon,
that old serpent,
which is the Devil,
and Satan,
and bound him a 1000 years, <-- Keyword

Revelation 20:3
And cast him into the bottomless pit,
and shut him up,
and set a seal upon him,
that he should deceive the nations no more,
till the 1000 years <-- Keyword
should be fulfilled:
and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands;
and they lived
and reigned
with Christ
a 1000 years. <-- Keyword

The 1st Resurrection​

The 1st Resurrection of it's kind?
The First Resurrection <-- Keyword
************************
Revelation 20:5 : This is the first resurrection.
But the rest of the dead
lived not again until the 1000 years <-- Keyword
were finished.
This is the first resurrection. <-- Keyword

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: <-- Keyword
on such the second death <-- Keyword
hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with him a 1000 years. <-- Keyword

Revelation 20:7
And when the 1000 years <-- Keyword
are expired,
Satan
shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations
which are in the four quarters of the earth,
Gog and Magog,
to gather them together to battle:
the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth,
and compassed the camp of the saints about,
and the beloved city:
and Fire came down from God out of heaven, <- Total Destruction of the Earth Revelation 21:1
and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10 <- After the 1000 years Revelation 20:3
And the devil
that deceived them
was cast into the lake of fire
and brimstone,
where the beast
and the false prophet are,
and shall be tormented
day and night
for ever and ever.


Revelation 20:11 <- Great White Throne Judgement Day
And I saw a great white throne,
and him that sat on it,
from whose face the earth
and the heaven
fled away;
and there was found no place for them.


Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead,
small and great,
stand before God;
and the books were opened:
and another book was opened,
which is the book of life:
and the dead
were judged
out of those things which were written in the books,
according to their works

Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works.

Revelation 20:14 <- The Second Death
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death. <-- Keyword

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life
was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1 <- Total Destruction of the Earth Revelation 20:9
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 <- New Jerusalem
And I John saw the holy city,
new Jerusalem,
coming down from God
out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 
Douglas Summers said:
If you study the warning of Christ about the rich man and Lazarus, You will notice that the rich man was a religious Jew.( Luke 16:27-31)
Here is the answer to your question above (Matt. 7:21-23)
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How does either one of those scriptures give an answer to a rich man not being allowed to be saved or that Abraham goes on to say certain things. It's a parable like all the other parables Jesus gave for us to gain a deeper understanding of what He is teaching us. If you believe it is not a parable, but literal then that makes John 3:13 a lie.
 
Rev Chapter 20 is not a literal thousand years and has nothing to do with a thousand year reign of Christ here on earth. It never mentions the second coming of Christ or even him being on earth at this time of Satan being bound and then set loose for a little while. It never mentions Christ's reign on earth, a bodily resurrection or even any that are still alive at this time that are in Christ and He in them as it says in vs. 4 "they" (used in past tense) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, meaning the souls of them who were beheaded for their testimony of Jesus that never took the mark of the beast or worshiped the beast. These are the fellow servants and brethren mention in Rev 6:9-11 as being the fulfillment of those who are under the altar that they have now had their blood avenged by God.

The word thousand is not literal in scripture, but symbolic for a large number or a long period of time as in these scriptures:

Psalms 50:10, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills."
Ecclesiastes 7:28, "...one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found."
Daniel 5:1, "Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand."
Daniel 7:10, "...thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him."
Deuteronomy 7:9, "…which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that…keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"
1 Chronicles 16:15, "Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;"
Psalms 90:4, "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past,"
Psalms 105:8, "He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."
Ecclesiastes 6:6, "Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?"
2 Peter 3:8, "...one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Many look for a physical kingdom and read into Rev 20 that Christ will reign for a thousand years, but truth is that Christ has always reigned with God from the foundation of the world and for eternity even though Satan's pride caused the nations to sin against God, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17, but yet they have always been Gods kingdoms. In Rev 11:14-19 the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Everything from Chapter 11:14 that starts the third woe with the seventh trumpet sounding and continues through Rev 20:15 comes quickly in Gods timing, even though man tries to put a certain timing to the beginning and end of Gods great wrath.

We inherit the kingdoms of God from the day of our Spiritual rebirth as they have been prepared for us from the foundation of the world, Matthew 25:34. We reign with Christ here on this present earth as Gods grace gives us all power and authority through that of Christ Jesus for it is not our power and authority, but is Christ's that works through us as a faithful servant.

Rev 20:6 talks about two resurrections. John is given a vision, vs. 4, as he sees thrones and those who sat on them as judgment has already been given them. They who sit on the thrones and have already been judged are those souls who have died a martyr's death fulfilling that of Rev 6:9-11 as they were faithful and victorious unto good works as they are given power to judge angels, 1Corinthians 6:3. They are part of the first resurrection of the dead and will not stand in Gods great white throne judgement for they have already been judged faithful and live and reign with Christ. The rest of the dead lived not again until the last day, vs. 5; John 6:37-40, as they are part of the second resurrection, (not to be confused with the second death in vs.14), and are not as victorious as the martyr's of the first resurrection as they lacked in some areas as some of their works were burned up, but yet they will be saved by the refining fire of Jesus as they will be saved, 1Corinthians 3:15. They are like the seven Churches where Jesus had some issues with them, but yet there were brought through the refiners fire and saved on the last day, but have no power like that of the martyr's, but are priest of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him on the last day.
 
Revelation 19:2-3
For true and righteous are his judgments:
for he hath judged the great whore, <-- Revelation 14:8 Babylon is fallen
which did corrupt the earth with her fornication,
and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Revelation 19:7-9 Marriage of the Lamb <-- Keyword
Revelation 19:9 Note:"Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb"
Revelation 19:10 John confused again, falling to his knees worshipping anything he sees lol
Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened,
and behold a white horse;
and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True,
and in righteousness
he doth judge
and make war.

Mini Question?
Who is this figure?

Mini Answer?
Rider on a White Horse appears at 1st Seal?
Pre-trib says this Rider on the White Horse at the 1st Seal Rider are the same.

Revelation 19:12
His eyes were as a flame of fire,
and on his head were many crowns;
and he had a name written,
that no man knew,
but he himself.

Mini Question?
Who is this figure on a white horse?

Mini Answer?
"he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself."

Revelation 19:13
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood:
and his name is called
The Word of God.

Mini Question?
Who is this figure on a white horse?

Mini Answer?
"The Word of God"

Revelation 19:14
And the armies
which were in heaven
followed him
upon white horses,
clothed in fine linen,
white and clean.


Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth
goeth a sharp sword,
that with it
he should smite the nations:
and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress <- keyword Revelation 14:20
of the fierceness
and wrath
of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16
And he hath on his vesture
and on his thigh
a name written,
KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Mini Question?
Who is this figure?

Mini Answer?
The Rider on the White Horse is Jesus!

Revelation 19:17
And I saw an angel
standing in the sun;
and he cried with a loud voice,
saying to all the fowls
that fly in the midst of heaven,
Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;


Mini Question?
Supper, Some claim this is the "marriage supper of the Lamb"

Mini Answer?


Revelation 19:18
That ye may eat the flesh <- symbolic imagery that offends some
of kings,
and the flesh of captains,
and the flesh of mighty men,
and the flesh of horses,
and of them that sit on them,
and the flesh of all men,
both free and bond,
both small and great.

Revelation 19:19
And I saw the beast, <- 666 Bad Guy
and the kings of the earth,
and their armies,
gathered together
to make war <-- 1st Battle of Armageddon?
against him that sat on the horse,
and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 The Beast & the False Prophet cast into Hell
And the beast was taken,
and with him the false prophet
that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast,
and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Revelation 19:21
And the remnant were slain
with the sword
of him that sat upon the horse,
which sword proceeded out of his mouth:
and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

So here is Revelation 19 to be butchered. Have fun!
 
Jim Parker said:
I'll stop right there because those words are a very strong indication suggesting that you have no idea how to approach apocalyptic literature.
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I think you
Free said:
First, are they mutually exclusive? Second, Peter tell us in 1 Pet. 2 that there already is a royal priesthood.


Where did Jesus say and do this?


Most of the language in Rev. isn't clear, not to mention that it is part of a larger whole which we must consider as context. Notice how you have appealed to things outside of Rev. to make a point about what you think Rev. is saying? We simply cannot interpret Rev. apart from what the rest of Scripture states.

As was stated, it's a confusing book and difficult to interpret, hence the numerous differing interpretations.


That's what you think but where does Rev. say this?
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Don't agree -"Most of the language in Rev. isn't clear" I find Rev consistent with the teachings of one Shepard.

Children of the King or God.
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?”he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?”

26 “From others,” Peter answered.

“Then the children are exempt,” Jesus said to him. 27 “But so that we may not cause offense,go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.”
 
On that day HOLY TO THE LORD will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanitec in the house of the Lord Almighty.
(c)or [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]merchant

Zech 14
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Randy said:
On that day HOLY TO THE LORD will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the Lord Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanitec in the house of the Lord Almighty.
(c)or [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]merchant

Zech 14
[/FONT]
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I love Zechariah 14 as it is prophecy proclaimed to that which will happen in the Revelations before the return of Christ and after He returns. There is nothing hard to understand in Revelations when it is unveiled to those who read it word for word, comparing OT with NT scriptures and studying the history of Israel in whom we as Gentiles are graphed into.
 
There is nothing hard to understand in the Revelations when words are removed at the whim of the false prophets who make up their fables!

Remove Words at your own Peril
Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy,
God shall take away his part out of the book of life,
and out of the holy city,
and from the things which are written in this book.
 
ezrider said:
Isaiah 30:15
For thus saith the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel;
In returning and rest shall ye be saved;
in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength:
and ye would not.
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Please don't just post a scripture without saying what your point is. I have no way of knowing what you are thinking.
 
Randy said:
I think you

Don't agree -"Most of the language in Rev. isn't clear" I find Rev consistent with the teachings of one Shepard.

Children of the King or God.
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?”he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?”

26 “From others,” Peter answered.

“Then the children are exempt,” Jesus said to him. 27 “But so that we may not cause offense,go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.”
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You post is very fragmented and scattered without focus or coherence.
 
Jim Parker said:
Please don't just post a scripture without saying what your point is. I have no way of knowing what you are thinking.
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Why would you need to know his thought as sometimes it is good to just give what has already been written so others can go read it and understand its meaning.
 
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