Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Jim Parker]

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. Hebrews 4:1

Oi veh! You have GOT to be kidding!
Just because the word "rest" appears in a passage, it doesn't prove the nowhere-to-be-found-in-scripture "1000 year day of rest" you imagine to be reality based in the inventions and innovations of the Dispensational wind of doctrine..
Hebrews 3 & 4ff is not talking about any 1000 year "day of rest."
The writer of Hebrews was talking about resting FROM WORKS OF THE LAW and entering into God's promised salvation (symbolized by the promised land) by faith and obedience.
Heb 4:2-3a For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers. For we who have believed enter that rest,
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. (As those under Moses)

 

[n2thelight]

This is why I spend very little time in Revelation. It's too open to interpretation and to exploitation by charlatans who want to use the imprecise language of apocalyptic literature to astound and amaze rubes with their "deep knowledge."

The very name means to reveal,meaning it should'nt be a problem especially when the book is explained as you read

 

[Jim Parker]

The very name means to reveal,meaning it should'nt be a problem especially when the book is explained as you read

If it shouldn't be a problem then why do you think there are so many different interpretations?
Do you understand what apocalyptic literature is?
ANd, no, it isn't "explained" as you read.
sigh

 

[n2thelight]

If it shouldn't be a problem then why do you think there are so many different interpretations?
Do you understand what apocalyptic literature is?
ANd, no, it isn't "explained" as you read.
sigh

Maybe not for you,but it is to me..Remember there's a reason why some are in darkness,it's for their own good...

 

[JLB]

Oi veh! You have GOT to be kidding!
Just because the word "rest" appears in a passage, it doesn't prove the nowhere-to-be-found-in-scripture "1000 year day of rest" you imagine to be reality based in the inventions and innovations of the Dispensational wind of doctrine..
Hebrews 3 & 4ff is not talking about any 1000 year "day of rest."
The writer of Hebrews was talking about resting FROM WORKS OF THE LAW and entering into God's promised salvation (symbolized by the promised land) by faith and obedience.
Heb 4:2-3a For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers. For we who have believed enter that rest,
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. (As those under Moses)

Your the one who said you didn't see the Day of rest in the scriptures, except "with specific reference to the literal Sabbath".

Here is your quote from that post.

I don't see "the Day of Rest" in the scriptures except with specific reference to the literal Sabbath.

So I quoted for you a scripture, that plainly says... a promise remains of entering His rest.

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. Hebrews 4:1

..therefore it remains that some must enter it

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

...if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.


9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. Hebrews 4:9

Why does there remain a rest for the people of God, if the literal Sabbath was that rest?

We have a rest that we all are looking forward to.

A Seventh Day that is typified by the Sabbath each week.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus spoke of the end of the age to his disciples in plain language.
You're conflating apocalyptic visions with plain, non-symbolic, language at Mat 25:31ff.

So you agree that the return of Jesus Christ, with His saints is literal?

Yes or No?

Don't be absurd.
Now you're confusing your interpretations of scripture with actual scripture.
The question is not whether what Jesus said is true. The question is whether what you THINK He said is true.
We'll have to wait and see which of the various interpretations of the highly-symbolic, apocalyptic language of the apocalyptic portions of scripture is closest to correct.
You do realize that your interpretation is not the only interpretation, right?
You understand that your belief is not the same as God's word, right?

You going to have to do better than stating more opinion in the face of scripture that teaches us Jesus will return with His saints and destroy the wicked.

Frankly, I don't know why you would try to deny this foundational truth that stated over and over throughout the scriptures.

I believe He will come with His saints and gather all His people at the resurrection, and destroy the wicked... based on these scriptures and the what these scriptures teach.

These are scriptures, not my interpretations, you do know the difference, right?

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16


and again

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.Revelation 19:19-21


and again

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are aliveand remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3


For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!”then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

If you don't believe Jesus will return with His saints, and destroy the wicked, then please provide the scriptures that teach us He won't.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

If God knows the very number of hairs on our head would you not think He would know our names? All who have died so far are in their grave asleep until the coming of the Lord. Some will be raised in the first resurrection to meet Jesus in the air and come back with Him and others will be a part of the second resurrection that has no power as they are raised to stand in Gods judgement and cast into the lake of fire. Rev 19, 20.

 

[Randy]

If it shouldn't be a problem then why do you think there are so many different interpretations?
Do you understand what apocalyptic literature is?
ANd, no, it isn't "explained" as you read.
sigh

Are we merchants or a Royal Priesthood in the 1000 years.? We are a people belonging to God. And Jesus explained Kings don't tax their own children. Jesus paid the tax not to offend. The point is because of the clear language in Rev (scripture) I would state there is a 1000 year period between the 1st and 2nd resurrection. Because of the clear language in Rev 11 I would state the two witnesses will testify for 1260 days. Their bodies killed, refused burial, and God breaths life back into their bodies and takes them up to heaven in full view of all the world. A sign that can't be mistaken. So while there are metaphors the book is not as confusing as some make it to be. I mean Jesus gave that testimony. Is Jesus really that bad at it? I think not. And I don't think we will be working for a living (merchants) during that 1000 year period.
Rev states the bowl judgments are the last of Gods judgments and the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. Rev 16:15 is clear to all as a coming of the Lord to destroy the beast and his armies (visible and invisible) Rev states the beast is released at the sounding of the 5th trump and at the sounding of the 7th trump the kingdom of this world shall become the kingdom of God and His Christ. Even the beast is defined by God. An angel who once was. Currently imprisoned awaiting the appointed time of release. In the days of Rev 11. I got all that be reading Rev.

So as I read there is no pretrib rapture found.

He not confusing!
rev 22
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

 

[JLB]

So while there are metaphors the book is not as confusing as some make it to be.

And I don't think we will be working for a living (merchants) during that 1000 year period.

A time of rest, as all our enemies will have been removed, and we will have new bodies that will never die and shine like the sun.

A body that does not have a sin nature embedded in it, in which it will no longer strive against the Spirit within, which will truly be a rest.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Maybe not for you,but it is to me..Remember there's a reason why some are in darkness,it's for their own good...

Right. You're a minister of light.

 

[Free]

A time of rest,

Where does Revelation state this? What would we be resting from? Is this all believers or only some? If all the wicked have been destroyed, as you state, then what are we reigning over?

as all our enemies will have been removed,

What do you mean by this? What about those who gather for battle after the millennium, those whose "number is like the sand of the sea"?

 

[Free]

Are we merchants or a Royal Priesthood in the 1000 years.?

First, are they mutually exclusive? Second, Peter tell us in 1 Pet. 2 that there already is a royal priesthood.

And Jesus explained Kings don't tax their own children. Jesus paid the tax not to offend.

Where did Jesus say and do this?

The point is because of the clear language in Rev (scripture) I would state there is a 1000 year period between the 1st and 2nd resurrection.

Most of the language in Rev. isn't clear, not to mention that it is part of a larger whole which we must consider as context. Notice how you have appealed to things outside of Rev. to make a point about what you think Rev. is saying? We simply cannot interpret Rev. apart from what the rest of Scripture states.

As was stated, it's a confusing book and difficult to interpret, hence the numerous differing interpretations.

And I don't think we will be working for a living (merchants) during that 1000 year period.

That's what you think but where does Rev. say this?

 

[Jim Parker]

Your the one who said you didn't see the Day of rest in the scriptures, except "with specific reference to the literal Sabbath".

So I quoted for you a scripture, that plainly says... a promise remains of entering His rest.

Please compare the following two phrases:
(1) "Day of rest"
(2) "entering His rest"
Are those two phrases exactly the same?
NOTE: having one word common to both phrases DOES NOT make then "exactly the same."
It is amazing to me that you don't seem to understand that.

So, no, they are not exactly the same. Calling the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ "the day of rest" does NOT make it have anything to do with what the passage in Hebrews addresses just because the non-Biblical term (1000 year "day of rest") and the passage in Hebrews both use the word rest.

Using your method of "exegesis" one could easily make an advertisement for a mattress "biblical proof" of a literal understanding of the millennial reign.

The term "Day of rest" is found only with reference to the Sabbath which the Jews were required to keep by doing no work on that day.

Aside from that specific usage, which refers only to the Sabbath which God commanded the Jews to keep, there is absolutely not one single use of the term "day of rest" to refer to a 1000 year reign of Christ.

 

[Jim Parker]

I believe He will come with His saints and gather all His people at the resurrection, and destroy the wicked... based on these scriptures and the what these scriptures teach.

So you believe Christ will return at the resurrection and destroy the wicked.
What does "destroy the wicked" mean?
Kill them?
For what? So He can resurrect them and send them to hell?
That makes no sense.

Frankly, I don't know why you would try to deny this foundational truth that stated over and over throughout the scriptures.[?QUOTE]
So, what YOU think an ecstatic vision means you also imagine is stated over and over throughout the scriptures.

You don't seem to grasp the concept that what you believe does not mean your belief is exactly and only what the scripture means in spite of how clearly YOU think you see everything.

And you simply refuse to grasp the fact that apocalyptic literature was never intended to be understood literally.

And, finally, you are unable to accept the FACT that there are real interpretations of the Bible which don't agree with what you believe.

And what makes you think that what YOU believe is what everyone else has to believe as well?

Who made YOU the final authority on the only valid meaning of the ecstatic visions of the Apocalypse?

 

[Jim Parker]

Because of the clear language in Rev 11... I

I'll stop right there because those words are a very strong indication suggesting that you have no idea how to approach apocalyptic literature.

 

[markathome]

one appeared like unto the son of man:
"the son of man" appears 107 times in the Hebrew Bible, the majority (93 times) in the Book of Ezekiel

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion with the 144,000
Revelation 14:6 everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth
Revelation 14:8 Babylon is fallen
Revelation 14:9-10 Warning for those who receives the 666

Revelation 14:13 "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth"

1st Harvest by the "like unto the son of man"
Revelation 14:14 one sat on a cloud like unto the Son of man having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

2nd Harvest by an "angel"
Revelation 14:17-18 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.



Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered
every one that shall be found written in the book.
and one appeared like unto the son of man? Daniel 7:13 Revelation 14:13-15 Daniel 8:17
Revelation 15-16 the seven last plagues/vials

 

[Jim Parker]

one appeared like unto the son of man:
"the son of man" appears 107 times in the Hebrew Bible, the majority (93 times) in the Book of Ezekiel
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion with the 144,000
Revelation 14:6 everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth
Revelation 14:8 Babylon is fallen
Revelation 14:9-10 Warning for those who receives the 666
Revelation 14:13 "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth"
1st Harvest by the "like unto the son of man"
Revelation 14:14 one sat on a cloud like unto the Son of man having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
2nd Harvest by an "angel"
Revelation 14:17-18 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered
every one that shall be found written in the book.
and one appeared like unto the son of man? Daniel 7:13 Revelation 14:13-15 Daniel 8:17
Revelation 15-16 the seven last plagues/vials

And what is it that you would like us to understand from all this?

 

[markathome]

Im sure there will be no understanding of it, even after 50+ pages of post.
Matthew 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Per Jesus in Matthew the Harvest is in Reverse compared to Revelation 14
Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Let both grow together until the harvest:
and in the time of harvest
I(Jesus) will say to the reapers, (Jesus is not the Reaper here)
Gather ye together first the tares, 2nd Harvest by an "angel"
and bind them in bundles to burn them:
but gather the wheat into my barn. 1st Harvest by the "like unto the son of man"

Are these talking about the same Harvest?

 

[Douglas Summers]

Do you really think that a rich man can not be spiritually born again because he is rich or that God does not now every persons name!!![/

If God knows the very number of hairs on our head would you not think He would know our names? All who have died so far are in their grave asleep until the coming of the Lord. Some will be raised in the first resurrection to meet Jesus in the air and come back with Him and others will be a part of the second resurrection that has no power as they are raised to stand in Gods judgement and cast into the lake of fire. Rev 19, 20.

If you study the warning of Christ about the rich man and Lazarus, You will notice that the rich man was a religious Jew.( Luke 16:27-31)
Here is the answer to your question above (Matt. 7:21-23)

 

[reba]

So you believe Christ will return at the resurrection and destroy the wicked.
What does "destroy the wicked" mean?
Kill them?
For what? So He can resurrect them and send them to hell?
That makes no sense.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.