Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[for_his_glory]

No.
You are confusing the "virtual" with the "real."
Chatting on the internet is not anything even remotely related to communion with the actual body of Christ no matter how comfortable and safe it is from being challenged by sound doctrine.

I see no difference with virtual or real when it comes to sharing scripture with each other unless one avoids studying that which another one gives. Virtual or real we are still the body of Christ and need to be reflecting that when we are in forums.

 

[Jim Parker]

I see no difference with virtual or real

Yes that was my point.
That's the problem; you don't see any difference.

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation, while Israel is receiving the results of trusting the nations, and not trusting God's and His warning. anoints a Jewish remnant who have not bowed down to the heathen nations (gentiles) and this Jewish remnant will be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom and salvation in Jesus Christ to all the world (Matt. 24: 13-14) (Revelation chapter 7) where a multitude that you can not count will be saved of ALL nations (Jew and Gentile). So Revelation is a warning to the Gentile also in how God will deal with the Gentile nations on how they treated Israel. Imagine, the world will have the book of current events foretold beforehand, knowing what will happen, yet many still will not believe God.

OK, thank you. In part I agree. One last question. Can you explain Galatians 3:22-29? Bare with me as I will get to my point after this last question.

 

[for_his_glory]

Dan 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.
Dan 7:14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. (ESV)

Notice that this is the exact same wording as in Rev. 1:13: "and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest." And in Dan. 7 we see that it is this One that receives a kingdom that will last forever.


Yes, Jesus sent this angel but the angel is the medium through which the visions are given to John. The angel does not appear to be a part of the revelation itself.


No, that does not at all fit the flow of the passage.


There is no indication that this is the angel speaking. It is something that John wrote down but it is God speaking. This is not part of the revelation but rather could be just a word from God that John received.


No, it just means "a great voice." We know nothing more at this point. We certainly cannot say that it means "the great power and authority given to the angel to speak Gods words," as that would be making the text say something it does not.

John is here simply describing the surroundings. I'm not sure what your point is here.

"Son of man" not "Son of God." I've explained this above and it certainly is not an angel.


It is Jesus described and it is Jesus speaking.


It makes no difference.

There is a difference between the "a" as in one like a Son of man, Daniel 7:13, and "unto" as in one like unto the Son of man, Rev 1:13. Daniel is giving prophecy about the end of days as God being the Ancient of Days and one like a Son of man being Jesus that will return and make an end to all abominations as He takes back Gods Kingdom starting with the seventh trumpet, Rev 11:15.

The angel was like unto the Son of God for it was by Gods authority and power He spoke to Jesus who then spoke those words to the angel that He sent to His servant John to show John these revelations to write to the seven churches.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

I never said the angel was part of the revelations, but only the messenger that was sent to John.

It all flows as what the angel speaks to John are the very words of God to the letter.

I stand firm on those four points and yes it is Son of man in vs. 13 thank you for that correction.

 

[for_his_glory]

There will be NO CHANGE as the "end time" presents for any of us until very certain events transpire, IF we happen to even be here at thee end.

Technically we all come to an end regardless of the greater end time sights. So individually there is an end time as well. But there is a promise of a collective end time.

In a very long time of studies on these postures there are only two things I'm really convinced of about end times. Once anyone grasps these two very simple observations all the rest of the details are rather secondary events but if any do understand them they will see more in Revelation.

The events are this.

God in Christ will be revealed in us, here on earth, for those who are still alive in fleshly bodies.

The devil and his messengers will be destroyed. And these also are our own current issue in the flesh. We all sin, we have sin as a present tense occupation of our flesh and sin is of the devil or demonic in nature.

In order for the Promise we are looking for, the revealing of Christ in us to happen (technically the Spirit of Christ is ALREADY in us, but not FULLY revealed), the second event listed above has to transpire FIRST.

Fairly simple.

Are we going to be rocketing off into the atmosphere? Very.funny.joke

One very important point you left out is that upon Christ return, as it will be on the last day, we who are alive or asleep in the grave that are in Christ will be gathered together. Then we will be changed into our new glorified bodies as this corruptible puts on the incorruptible, the mortal puts on immortal in order to be in the presence of Christ then we will be with the Lord forever.

BTW, no one is rocketing off anywhere before "The Great Tribulation", which is found nowhere in scripture, like those "Left Behind" series depict, but only being caught up and gathered together as we meet Jesus in the air and return with Him as He destroys the beast, false prophet and Satan casting them into the lake of fire and all those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

[for_his_glory]

Uh, no. There will be no individual man as thee anti-Christ. The anti-Christ is an adverse evil spirit that occupies the flesh of many people. The New Testament Gospels are filled with examples of this. The actual culprit(s) are openly revealed. Why believers are looking for ANOTHER culprit is the only strange part when they can't seem to grasp the significance of the culprits we already have been show.

The devil and his messengers are those culprits. Man is not our enemy. That's really all there is to it.

Were there some 'individual man' as the anti-Christ, the scriptures would have to be rewritten or they would not be true. For example the command to love our neighbors as ourselves (too many citings to list) would not and could not apply to "that man." The dictate to speak evil of NO MAN in Titus 3:2 would not and could not possibly be true and apply to "that man." The dictate given to Peter in Acts 10, to call no man common or unclean would not and could not apply to "that man." These are just a few examples.

Believers looking for an individual man as thee anti-Christ are simply wasting their time. Millions of believers have already been disappointed and WRONG about this matter, and went to their graves completely IGNORANT on this subject. And many more will also.

Yes, there are many antichrist and who do you think it is that works through them making them an antichrist other than the spirit we call Satan. Just as Christ works through us so is the same with Satan who counterfeits everything of Christ as he does the opposite to destroy man.

There is always a first and a last and in this case Satan being the first antichrist and the last one to emerge before Christ returns is that antichrist being the son of perdition who is the last false prophet that will cause a major falling away as Satan, who is a spirit and not a man, will work through this false prophet for the last time who will deceive even the very elect of God if possible. The is no one Antichrist, but many as their leader is Satan that works in them and through them.

 

[for_his_glory]

Glory, As I have said before and as you have given the Scripture proof. What you call "the" falling away, as an event that will happen to the Church had already begun.(1 John 2:18-19) (1 Thes. 2:7) That is why we were told to test the spirits to see if they are of God, for already, many false prophets have separated them self from Christ's Apostles (or falling away as you claim it means). And the "we know it is the last days" is the last days of the Church. The Lord has been at hand for 2000 years in time of man, but there is no time with God. A 1000 years of man is as one day to God. God is ageless. So, if the "falling away" was a future event to happen as you teach, then we would already have been translated. For the world wide church is totally corrupt. And it had already started in John and Paul's day. And while I agree that many use Christ name in preaching, but deceiving their followers with a false Gospel and doctrine. Matthew 24:4 Does not mean that. It means that in the last days during great tribulation, many will claim that they them self are the Christ (and there are men that will believe them,even as the anti Christ sets himself upon the throne in Jerusalem to be worshiped as God.)(Jim Jones would be a good example) And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Do not be deceived, that day will not come till "the removal first" (of the Church) Please do not reply until you study the posted Scriptures.

I was with you up until your last sentence about the removal of the Church. I have studied these scriptures and what you posted with Matthew 24:5,6 has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture, but all of Matthew 24 is an outline of what we are to watch for that we are not deceived before Christ returns as when the end comes on the last day, John 6:40, then that of 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 will occur and we will be with the Lord forever in eternity.

When Christ returns in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, 1Corinthans 15 ;51,52, for we know not Gods timing, he then destroys the beast, false prophet and Satan casting them into the lake of fire and then those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of life are are also cast into the lake of fire. I don't believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ where Satan is literally bound for a 1000 years, but can only keep it withing Gods timing. I truly believe everything from the sounding of the seventh trumpet to the opening of the books will come quickly, possibly in a course of 3 1/2 years.

 

[smaller]

Yes, there are many antichrist and who do you think it is that works through them making them an antichrist other than the spirit we call Satan. Just as Christ works through us so is the same with Satan who counterfeits everything of Christ as he does the opposite to destroy man.

There is always a first and a last and in this case Satan being the first antichrist and the last one to emerge before Christ returns is that antichrist being the son of perdition who is the last false prophet that will cause a major falling away as Satan, who is a spirit and not a man, will work through this false prophet for the last time who will deceive even the very elect of God if possible. The is no one Antichrist, but many as their leader is Satan that works in them and through them.

John gave very applicable advice on this subject to all of us:

2 John 1:
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves,

I'm not wasting another minute of my life waiting for some "flesh man" anti-Christ and consider it a ridiculous waste of time. I'll leave that arena to the fear mongers who try to bilk money out of gullible believers over the sensationalism of it. I already know the anti-Christ is a spirit, not a flesh man.

The anti-Christ is Satan. We have no need to be looking for what we already know.

 

[smaller]

BTW, no one is rocketing off anywhere before "The Great Tribulation", which is found nowhere in scripture, like those "Left Behind" series depict, but only being caught up and gathered together as we meet Jesus in the air and return with Him as He destroys the beast, false prophet and Satan casting them into the lake of fire and all those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

A ridiculous notion without knowing what the "air" means scripturally. It is NOT the physical atmosphere. So, no rocketing off as the dime store novelists think they see.

Study "air" from Mark 4 in conjunction with Eph. 2:2 and you should be able to see what the "air" really means. It's an internal matter. We will be meeting Jesus INTERNALLY. He will be with us, IN US, IN FULL and in His Perfection. And it will be a surprise because you see, He's already within us all and has been all along.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are the false matters about crucial or frivolous subjects? Arguing about one's hopes and dreams for their endtimes is frivolous.

Everything is crucial to our learning so we will not be deceived. Many say "Well we'll wait til the end and see who is right or wrong". Sorry, it will be to late in the end when Christ comes back. This is why it is so important to not put off Salvation till later for no one knows when Christ will return other then it will be on the last day.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes that was my point.
That's the problem; you don't see any difference.

There you go again, cutting off part of my sentence to make your point. I asked you to please quit doing that.

I said: I see no difference with virtual or real when it comes to sharing scripture with each other unless one avoids studying that which another one gives.

 

[JLB]

A ridiculous notion without knowing what the "air" means scripturally. It is NOT the physical atmosphere. So, no rocketing off as the dime store novelists think they see.

Study "air" from Mark 4 in conjunction with Eph. 2:2 and you should be able to see what the "air" really means. It's an internal matter. We will be meeting Jesus INTERNALLY. He will be with us, IN US, IN FULL and in His Perfection. And it will be a surprise because you see, He's already within us all and has been all along.

We will meet Jesus externally and everyone will see Him.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

The resurrection and rapture occurs at His coming, in which both will be caught up into the air, into the clouds to be with the Lord.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


Every eye will see him. Those who claim otherwise are deceivers, in which the Lord warned us about those who would deceive.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matthew 24:23-27

Deceivers will try to convince you the coming of the Lord is secret, and hidden, whereby people will have to inform you that Jesus has returned, when Jesus says, not so... For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2



JLB

 

[smaller]

We will meet Jesus externally and everyone will see Him.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

The resurrection and rapture occurs at His coming, in which both will be caught up into the air, into the clouds to be with the Lord.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


Every eye will see him. Those who claim otherwise are deceivers, in which the Lord warned us about those who would deceive.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matthew 24:23-27

Deceivers will try to convince you the coming of the Lord is secret, and hidden, whereby people will have to inform you that Jesus has returned, when Jesus says, not so... For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2
JLB

We'll be a part of His Body, in full. I'd probably more expect to see Him as portrayed in Rev. 1 or Rev. 5:6. Do I think Jesus in any of those sights is going to be a flesh man holding a literal sealed book with paper pages sitting on a literal gilded throne?

Uh, no.

 

[JLB]

We'll be a part of His Body, in full. I'd probably more expect to see Him as portrayed in Rev. 1 or Rev. 5:6. Do I think Jesus in any of those sights is going to be a flesh man holding a literal sealed book with paper pages sitting on a literal gilded throne?

Uh, no.

Makes no sense, nor does it address my post.

We will meet Jesus externally, in the air and everyone will see Him, not "internally" as you have claimed.

Here are the scriptures that teach us this very thing.

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:9-11

The resurrection and rapture occurs at His coming, in which both will be caught up into the air, into the clouds to be with the Lord.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17


Every eye will see him. Those who claim otherwise are deceivers, in which the Lord warned us about those who would deceive.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matthew 24:23-27

Deceivers will try to convince you the coming of the Lord is secret, and hidden, whereby people will have to inform you that Jesus has returned, when Jesus says, not so... For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

John gave very applicable advice on this subject to all of us:

2 John 1:
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves,

I'm not wasting another minute of my life waiting for some "flesh man" anti-Christ and consider it a ridiculous waste of time. I'll leave that arena to the fear mongers who try to bilk money out of gullible believers over the sensationalism of it. I already know the anti-Christ is a spirit, not a flesh man.

The anti-Christ is Satan. We have no need to be looking for what we already know.

I'm not talking about those famous false prophets who bilk money out of you by peddling their end time teachings. I'm talking about what God has already said about the beast out of the sea who gives power to the beast out of the earth who is the son of perdition that Satan works through. These are the things we are told to watch out for so we are not deceived by their lies and the great signs and wonders they will perform to deceive even the very elect if possible.

 

[for_his_glory]

A ridiculous notion without knowing what the "air" means scripturally. It is NOT the physical atmosphere. So, no rocketing off as the dime store novelists think they see.

Study "air" from Mark 4 in conjunction with Eph. 2:2 and you should be able to see what the "air" really means. It's an internal matter. We will be meeting Jesus INTERNALLY. He will be with us, IN US, IN FULL and in His Perfection. And it will be a surprise because you see, He's already within us all and has been all along.

Um, no, Jesus has always been with us from the timing of our Spiritual rebirth of John 3:3-6. Jesus is in us as we are indwelled with His Holy Spirit, Colossians 3:1-4; John 14:26. We will see the full perfection of Jesus when we are gathered together, living and those who are asleep in the grave that wait until His coming as we are then changed into our new glorified bodies not knowing what we will look like, but will be as Christ in all His glory and this is done in a twinkling of an eye, 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Tessalonians 4:13-18. He will raise us up to Him on the last day, John 6:40 then we will be with the Lord in the new Jerusalem forever. I do believe we will meet him in the air meaning the literal atmosphere as we are all raised and changed before we see Him in the air or clouds for that is the way He ascended and the way He will return as we are gathered to Him. Acts 1:11 and Rev 19.

 

[smaller]

Um, no, Jesus has always been with us from the timing of our Spiritual rebirth of John 3:3-6. Jesus is in us as we are indwelled with His Holy Spirit, Colossians 3:1-4; John 14:26.

Never said otherwise. We already know where Jesus will be revealed.

IN US.

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

He will raise us up to Him on the last day, John 6:40 then we will be with the Lord in the new Jerusalem forever. I do believe we will meet him in the air meaning the literal atmosphere as we are all raised and changed before we see Him in the air or clouds for that is the way He ascended and the way He will return as we are gathered to Him. Acts 1:11 and Rev 19.

Obviously you have no interest in seeing what scripture has to say about 'air' from the previous scriptures provided and prefer a fairy tale in their stead.

 

[smaller]

I'm not talking about those famous false prophets who bilk money out of you by peddling their end time teachings. I'm talking about what God has already said about the beast out of the sea who gives power to the beast out of the earth who is the son of perdition that Satan works through. These are the things we are told to watch out for so we are not deceived by their lies and the great signs and wonders they will perform to deceive even the very elect if possible.

Well, here's news. We are not going to be seeing a sea monster with ten heads and a woman riding on it either.

 

[smaller]

Makes no sense, nor does it address my post.

We will meet Jesus externally, in the air and everyone will see Him, not "internally" as you have claimed.

I read the fine print.

Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, here's news. We are not going to be seeing a sea monster with ten heads and a woman riding on it either.

Wow, of course it's not a sea monster or a literal women riding on it, but if you do not know who the beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth are then you could possibly be deceived by them.