Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[reba]

What does the verse say ?

 

[smaller]

Those who pierced Him were the Jews.
The Jews will see Him and mourn.

Oh, so you want to toss aside the literal flesh people who pierced Him now and switch to "allegorically speaking it was all the Jews?" heh heh. Pretty funny. I'd wager you don't have clue one about WHO the 'kindreds of the earth' are referring to.

I personally believe that every eye will see Him, those on earth, those under the earth and those in heaven.The will see Him externally, not internally within, for those in the heart of the earth do not have Him within.

I seem to recall that you are a "multiple ressurection" proponent as well. Yeah.

All will see Him when He comes in all His glory.
JLB

Those kinds of statements from the scriptures are entirely dependent on what "all" we should be seeing. I might say for example that ALL devils on earth are part of the statements of fact. I might even say that every last one of the men who pierced Jesus had sin, that their sin was of the devil and that those devils, the very same ones who blinded those men who pierced Him are still roaming the earth, IN FLESH, to this day.

edited reba

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't reject any scripture. I do reject notions that can't harmonize them. And that problem is particularly rife about being caught up in the physical atmosphere when it has absolutely zero to do with same and we are shown otherwise by scripture.

Are you saying there is no physical return of Christ, but that He is only revealed in us?

 

[for_his_glory]

What "eyes" are being spoken of here?

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Fairly certain that the physical eyes of the physical persons who pierced him turned to dust quite some time ago.


Apparently "heaven" to you is the air/atmosphere above our heads. We can look up and see it. Or perhaps it is on the planet Kolub if we go far enough "up?"

Apparently you have never heard or read about the three heavens in scripture.

There are three heavens:

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).
The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).

 

[smaller]

Are you saying there is no physical return of Christ, but that He is only revealed in us?

God in Christ is PERSONALLY within every person who has called upon Him to save us.

The only thing that stands in the way of our greater perceptions of Him is our VILE FLESH, which at some point in time, either upon our departure from this vile flesh ala Romans 6:7, we go to be with our Lord permanently, OR upon the REVEALING of Christ in us in FULL by the change that is promised in Phil. 3:21 when the vile flesh is CHANGED.

As it stands, until one or the other transpires, we simply do not yet see what it is that we shall be. Technically speaking, we are dead, and our life is HID with God in Christ, because it is hidden in a VILE DEAD body. Col. 3:3, Gal. 5:17. If we can't recognize our own factual present state we'll see little of anything else in the scriptures.

There are accounts from scripture where the Voice of God, the Voice of Christ is as a multitude of VOICES or RUSHING WATERS (waters is an association term to PEOPLE). That is technically ALL of us who believe, already in His Body, where we are actually currently seated and we simply do not know it or perceive it.


Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Believers who think they are going to rocket off into the air do not know where we are already seated. Nor do those who do know and perceive this, presently, know how we shall appear yet because Christ IN US has not yet been unveiled IN US IN FULL.

The events of 1 Cor. 15 must and WILL transpire FIRST. The last enemy, DEATH, must first be destroyed before we have the FULL unveiling. Until then each believer is harvested off the earth upon our individual deaths, and we take our seat with Christ, in His Body. This might conjure up a LOT of fantasies, but little in the way of what that might really be like. I suspect it is very disorienting, because we are so used to seeing through the 5 sense world we currently occupy.

 

[smaller]

Apparently you have never heard or read about the three heavens in scripture.

One of those heavens, "the air" referred to in Mark 4 and Eph. 2:2 IS occupied currently by the devil and his messengers.

It has zero to do with the air we breathe or the atmosphere above our heads.

 

[for_his_glory]

Who is promoting the idea of putting off Salvation? Do you honestly believe you can learn to not be deceived about Endtimes?

Many people put off accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior thinking they have plenty of time or that they will just take their chances when they die. Sorry, when Jesus returns for His Bride that door of Salvation is then closed forever as no one knows the day or the hour of Christ return, but we do know He will return on the last day after Gods great wrath that is poured out on those who reject Christ, Matthew 24:29-37; John 6:40.

Yes, we can learn to not be deceived if we would only read and study the scriptures for ourselves by asking the Holy Spirit to reveal many of the mysteries that are found in the scriptures instead of believing every whim that comes from the pulpit. It's called learning how to discern that of what we hear being taught by others as being truth or error, 1John 4:1-6; Colossians 2:8; 1Corinthians 6:9,10; 2Timothy 3:13; Matthew 7:21-23; Titus 3:3-7

 

[for_his_glory]

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
this verse says plainly "to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. " as the verse states shouldn't we always be in the air with the Lord?

Here on this present earth we are always with the Lord through the Spiritual rebirth as we have picked up our cross to follow Him, but yet have to live in this fleshly body that is prone to sin at times. When Christ returns we are then changed and given new glorified bodies that can no longer sin and that no one knows what we will be other than we will be like Christ in all His glory 1John 3:1-3

 

[reba]

I remember talking with Mom .. my understanding at the time was post trib rapture...
I was some what a rebellious teen ( big surprise huh) I was telling mom some like this:
Look mom why can't i do what i want God forgives us so i can live today as i wish when the tribulation hits i will just Not deny Jesus get my head chopped off and be in heaven with ya

 

[reba]

Here on this present earth we are always with the Lord through the Spiritual rebirth as we have picked up our cross to follow Him, but yet have to live in this fleshly body that is prone to sin at times. When Christ returns we are then changed and given new glorified bodies that can no longer sin and that no one knows what we will be other than we will be like Christ in all His glory 1John 3:1-3

Your post does not answer the question as to what

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

literally says..

 

[for_his_glory]

Oh, I'm beyond certain that those who pierced him as it relates to the "flesh men" are long dead and their eyes returned to the dust from whence they came.

Yet we find this statement in Rev. 1:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Those who pierced Jesus and those who have rejected Jesus that have died before His coming will also arise and be gathered with those who are alive and rejected Jesus as this is the second resurrection and will stand in Gods great white throne judgment and the books will be opened as their names are not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will be cast into the lake of fire never to be remembered no more, Rev 20:6, 11-15.

 

[smaller]

Those who pierced Jesus and those who have rejected Jesus that have died before His coming will also arise and be gathered with those who are alive and rejected Jesus as this is the second resurrection and will stand in Gods great white throne judgment and the books will be opened as their names are not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will be cast into the lake of fire never to be remembered no more, Rev 20:6, 11-15.

Ah, we've uncovered another multiple resurrection theorist!

 

[for_his_glory]

God in Christ is PERSONALLY within every person who has called upon Him to save us.

The only thing that stands in the way of our greater perceptions of Him is our VILE FLESH, which at some point in time, either upon our departure from this vile flesh ala Romans 6:7, we go to be with our Lord permanently, OR upon the REVEALING of Christ in us in FULL by the change that is promised in Phil. 3:21 when the vile flesh is CHANGED.

As it stands, until one or the other transpires, we simply do not yet see what it is that we shall be. Technically speaking, we are dead, and our life is HID with God in Christ, because it is hidden in a VILE DEAD body. Col. 3:3, Gal. 5:17. If we can't recognize our own factual present state we'll see little of anything else in the scriptures.

There are accounts from scripture where the Voice of God, the Voice of Christ is as a multitude of VOICES or RUSHING WATERS (waters is an association term to PEOPLE). That is technically ALL of us who believe, already in His Body, where we are actually currently seated and we simply do not know it or perceive it.


Ephesians 2:
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Believers who think they are going to rocket off into the air do not know where we are already seated. Nor do those who do know and perceive this, presently, know how we shall appear yet because Christ IN US has not yet been unveiled IN US IN FULL.

The events of 1 Cor. 15 must and WILL transpire FIRST. The last enemy, DEATH, must first be destroyed before we have the FULL unveiling. Until then each believer is harvested off the earth upon our individual deaths, and we take our seat with Christ, in His Body. This might conjure up a LOT of fantasies, but little in the way of what that might really be like. I suspect it is very disorienting, because we are so used to seeing through the 5 sense world we currently occupy.

By what you have said here makes me believe you know nothing of the Spiritual rebirth that we have died to the flesh as we have now put on Christ and walk in the guidance of the Holy Spirit looking for that glorious day of Christ return as we keep ourselves from falling to the sins of the flesh, even though at times we do unintentionally fail, but grace pardons those times. So many scriptures teach how we have crucified this flesh daily, but Colossians Chapter three is probably the best scriptures on how we overcame this flesh.

 

[smaller]

By what you have said here makes me believe you know nothing of the Spiritual rebirth that we have died to the flesh as we have now put on Christ and walk in the guidance of the Holy Spirit looking for that glorious day of Christ return as we keep ourselves from falling to the sins of the flesh, even though at times we do unintentionally fail,

And you apparently can't see the circular logic and double dealings that are employed regarding our own sins, which I consider quite hypocritical.

but grace pardons those times.

If Grace forgave your sins it forgave all sins.

So many scriptures teach how we have crucified this flesh daily, but Colossians Chapter three is probably the best scriptures on how we overcame this flesh.

No one in a vile body is sinless, period. Paul openly and quite truthfully claimed to be the chief of sinners, AFTER salvation. Believers just can't seem to believe their own eyes when they read it. 1 Tim. 1:15.

I put up a post this a.m. in the A&T forum under "what works will be burned up" thread that explains my understandings on the above if you care to read it.

And yes, it does apply to this same topic.

 

[for_his_glory]

One of those heavens, "the air" referred to in Mark 4 and Eph. 2:2 IS occupied currently by the devil and his messengers.

It has zero to do with the air we breathe or the atmosphere above our heads.

The word air in Ephesians 2:2 is also that of the earth's atmosphere as the world is Satan's domain for now as he travels from the third heaven where God sits on His throne down to earth to torment man, Job 1:6,7; Ephesians 6:12.

 

[for_his_glory]

Your post does not answer the question as to what literally says..

It literally says we will be caught up to the clouds where we are then changed as we are given our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the literal air as He descends down from the third heaven at His second coming that is on the last day, John 6:40, and then we will see Him as He is, 1John 3:1-3, and will be with Him forever.

 

[smaller]

The word air in Ephesians 2:2 is also that of the earth's atmosphere as the world is Satan's domain for now as he travels from the third heaven where God sits on His throne down to earth to torment man, Job 1:6,7; Ephesians 6:12.

That's pretty funny. Hey, when you happen to see Satan zooming around up in the air/atmosphere, give me a hollar!

Sorry, but some sights on theology are really a bad joke and those who think like you have shown really should take a few steps back and reassess.

 

[for_his_glory]

Ah, we've uncovered another multiple resurrection theorist!

The second death is a separate resurrection then that of the first resurrection in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and Rev 20:6 as those who have died and rejected Christ are not going to be resurrected with we who are in Christ that sleep in the ground until His coming. It's not the flesh that is resurrected from the grave in either case and no one knows what form either one will be in.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[smaller]

The second death is a separate resurrection then that of the first resurrection in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and Rev 20:6 as those who have died and rejected Christ are not going to be resurrected with we who are in Christ that sleep in the ground until His coming. It's not the flesh that is resurrected from the grave in either case and no one knows what form either one will be in.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Who are "the dead?"

 

[reba]

It literally says we will be caught up to the clouds where we are then changed as we are given our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the literal air as He descends down from the third heaven at His second coming that is on the last day, John 6:40, and then we will see Him as He is, 1John 3:1-3, and will be with Him forever.

I disagree 1th 4 :& says all that it says this
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.