Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Douglas Summers]

OK, thank you. In part I agree. One last question. Can you explain Galatians 3:22-29? Bare with me as I will get to my point after this last question.

The reason for the writing of Galatians was that Paul, after he had established Christian Churches in Galatia, that the Jew's who lived in the area started preaching another gospel that, Yes, Christ was needed for salvation, but that works were also necessary for salvation too.(keeping the Mosaic Law)
After Paul had left Galatia, it was reported to him of the Galatians accepting another gospel than the one that Paul had preached (above). Paul explains to them how the Law was used by God to teach man about themselves in relation to God. And he explains it this way.

The Law was only a teacher until the promised Savior (first prophesied in Gen. 3:15) The law was Holy, perfect and just. The Law included the numerous sacrifices that atoned for their sins (Atoned has the meaning of the sinners guilt was a confession of his sins before God) and the sacrifices were a type of Christ satisfying the penalty with his death and blood. Those sins were never taken away but just moved forward till the Christ came....not to atone, which is what the law of Sacrifices only did, but to take them away completely as far as east is from the west (no remembrance of them) whereas in atoning for their sins, there was always a remembrance of those sins, So the law that was Holy righteous and perfect brought death to the sinner...not life. For it condemned sin in sinful man. So do we do away with the Law?....no! We uphold the law. So, how do you uphold the law if it brings guilt and death to the sinner??? We let the law do what it was always intended to do, and that was to send the sinner to Christ. So we do not do away with the law, but now because of the promised redeemers work in our behalf, we are not under it's condemnation of the sinner by death.

The above was the "school teacher. And so we have gone from as a child learning or being taught...to an Adult Son (maturity). And Christ body (Church of born again believers) It is a body in one Spirit complete. Not Jew, not Gentile nor male or female, There is neither bond or free, but one united body in and as Christ. And we received this the same way Abraham received his son Isaac ( by faith) of which came the Son of man / Son of God. We are speaking here of the Church (the body of Christ) This is not about Israel.
So we are no more under the law (it's condemnation). We are now inlawed to Christ (under the law of Christ) Adoption in Galatians does not mean to take a child outside the family and adopt him in to a family, but adoption here means taking someone already a child of God that was under a guardian, who has now graduated and has become a responsible adult son. It is about son ship and heirs to the throne of Christ. Adoption is not about relationship, it is about position status.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I was with you up until your last sentence about the removal of the Church. I have studied these scriptures and what you posted with Matthew 24:5,6 has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture, but all of Matthew 24 is an outline of what we are to watch for that we are not deceived before Christ returns as when the end comes on the last day, John 6:40, then that of 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 will occur and we will be with the Lord forever in eternity.

When Christ returns in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, 1Corinthans 15 ;51,52, for we know not Gods timing, he then destroys the beast, false prophet and Satan casting them into the lake of fire and then those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of life are are also cast into the lake of fire. I don't believe in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ where Satan is literally bound for a 1000 years, but can only keep it withing Gods timing. I truly believe everything from the sounding of the seventh trumpet to the opening of the books will come quickly, possibly in a course of 3 1/2 years.

Sorry Glory, it's just not so. All of the gospels are about Israel, not the Church. The Church is only mentioned as a future calling. From Acts to Revelation chapter 4 are about the Church. That is why you have trouble with the Scriptures, you mix the prophecies of Israel with the promises to the Church. They are two different things. And yes, they are both in the Kingdom of God, but have two different responsibilities. The ethnic division of the Scriptures are: The Jew, The Gentile, and the Church. And God has given certain promises to Israel and different promises to His Church.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I was with you up until your last sentence about the removal of the Church. I have studied these scriptures and what you posted with Matthew 24:5,6 has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture, but all of Matthew 24 is an outline of what we are to watch for that we are not deceived before Christ returns as when the end comes on the last day

Matt. 24 is what Israel is to look for. This is not about the Church, it is about Israel. 1 and 2 Thess. is about the Church, not Israel. You can not link the two events together, they happen at different times.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't believe in Satanic salvation. Do you?!

1 John 3:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

It's a fairly simple scriptural principle. Devil(s) sin and they are never forgiven or saved NOR is a single sin forgiven and THEY are up to their eyeballs in all SIN.

By this it makes me believe you know nothing of the cross and Christ's finished works on it nor the Spiritual rebirth and that of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[reba]

to every one

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[for_his_glory]

The reason for the writing of Galatians was that Paul, after he had established Christian Churches in Galatia, that the Jew's who lived in the area started preaching another gospel that, Yes, Christ was needed for salvation, but that works were also necessary for salvation too.(keeping the Mosaic Law)
After Paul had left Galatia, it was reported to him of the Galatians accepting another gospel than the one that Paul had preached (above). Paul explains to them how the Law was used by God to teach man about themselves in relation to God. And he explains it this way.

The Law was only a teacher until the promised Savior (first prophesied in Gen. 3:15) The law was Holy, perfect and just. The Law included the numerous sacrifices that atoned for their sins (Atoned has the meaning of the sinners guilt was a confession of his sins before God) and the sacrifices were a type of Christ satisfying the penalty with his death and blood. Those sins were never taken away but just moved forward till the Christ came....not to atone, which is what the law of Sacrifices only did, but to take them away completely as far as east is from the west (no remembrance of them) whereas in atoning for their sins, there was always a remembrance of those sins, So the law that was Holy righteous and perfect brought death to the sinner...not life. For it condemned sin in sinful man. So do we do away with the Law?....no! We uphold the law. So, how do you uphold the law if it brings guilt and death to the sinner??? We let the law do what it was always intended to do, and that was to send the sinner to Christ. So we do not do away with the law, but now because of the promised redeemers work in our behalf, we are not under it's condemnation of the sinner by death.

The above was the "school teacher. And so we have gone from as a child learning or being taught...to an Adult Son (maturity). And Christ body (Church of born again believers) It is a body in one Spirit complete. Not Jew, not Gentile nor male or female, There is neither bond or free, but one united body in and as Christ. And we received this the same way Abraham received his son Isaac ( by faith) of which came the Son of man / Son of God. We are speaking here of the Church (the body of Christ) This is not about Israel.
So we are no more under the law (it's condemnation). We are now inlawed to Christ (under the law of Christ) Adoption in Galatians does not mean to take a child outside the family and adopt him in to a family, but adoption here means taking someone already a child of God that was under a guardian, who has now graduated and has become a responsible adult son. It is about son ship and heirs to the throne of Christ. Adoption is not about relationship, it is about position status.

OK, thank you as I can agree with this and thank you for answering my questions as here is my point of all that I have asked you.

Israel lost her right to be called Gods chosen people, (God did save a faithful remnant), as they fell into idolatry worshipping other gods as they allowed themselves to fall from Gods grace as they followed the lust of their own hearts as they practiced Judaism, 1Kings 9:1-9. God’s judgment against them led them to be captured, 605 – 537 B.C., by Nebuchadnezzar into Babylon for seventy years while Nebuchadnezzar’s army killed many Jews in Judah and Jerusalem destroying the whole city of Jerusalem including the first Temple that was built through King Solomon’s reign in Jerusalem.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent. They were set free from Babylon when the Medes and Persian conquered Babylon (Chaldeans) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshipping and they continued to receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The 490 years were up and many of the Jews not only did not repent but they killed the very Messiah they had been waiting for as well as in 24 A.D. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10. The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.

 

[for_his_glory]

I know that the end time is about the final delivery of us from this wicked world, that IS so because of Satan and his messengers and that is also why we "require" the final change that is spoken of in Phil. 3:21 and 1 Cor. 15 as a "collective" event, when all the enemies inclusive of death are finally put down. And yes, any believer who is still alive will see everything, right to the end.

How can one believe if they are so sin laden by Satan that even God will not forgive their sins as per what you have said about God does not forgive our sins.

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

Up until just a few years ago it was believed that the 70th week in Danial was from the time of the beginning of Jesus ministry, until the time of Paul's salvation. The "abomination that made desolation" was the crucifixion of Christ which was three and one half years into his ministry. Paul was saved three and one half years after the crucifixion. He was the "Apostle to the Gentiles" therefore closing the age of the Jews and ushering in the age of the Gentiles. Jews now have the very same path to salvation as the Gentiles, they are no different now than anyone else. I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church. I think it's a false teaching the devil has given us to weaken the church.

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation 19:14 we see Jesus coming with His armies (armies being plural) which comprises the host (angels) of heaven that come down from heaven with Him. The faithful saints of God both asleep in the grave and those who are still alive at His coming will be gathered together and given new glorified bodies as we are now called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. The faithful saints of God are caught up to meet Jesus and His host in the air (being the point where we will be gathered to Him) as we will then be with the Lord forever when He comes to plant His feet on the mount of Olives and makes an end to all abominations that cause desolation (makes an end of sin) as Jesus will destroy the great harlot of mystery Babylon casting the beast, false prophet and Satan into the lake of fire. (Daniel 8:13,14; 12:1-4; Matthew 16:27, 28; 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Jude 1:14; 2Thessalonians 1:7-10; Jude 1:14-21; Rev 17:14)

John 5:21-30 are the words of Jesus that shows us He is the one who sits on the great white throne in Gods final judgement and Paul confirms this in Acts 17:31. Jesus brings His rewards with Him on the last day, John 6:40; Revelation 22:10-21, and after exposing mystery Babylon and her great harlot, Jesus then destroys her by casting the beast, false prophet into the lake of fire. After this the remnant that are still alive and have followed after the harlot having no faith in God are slain by the words of Jesus as they like those before them have physically died in their sins against God and sleep in the grave where they will be resurrected from the grave to stand in Gods final judgement. Revelation 17:7-18; 18:1-19; 19:20, 21; 20:10.

Rev 20:1-3 Satan is bound for a while during this thousand year reign of Christ as he can no longer deceive the nations (people). The word thousand is not literal here, but symbolic for a large number or a long period of time as in these scriptures: Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Ecclesiastes 6:6; 7:28; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; Daniel 5:1; 7:10; 2Peter 3:8. Many look for a physical kingdom and read into Rev 20 that Christ will reign for a thousand years. The truth is that Christ has always reigned with God from the foundation of the world and for eternity even though Satan caused the nations (kingdoms of God) to sin against God, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17, those kingdoms will once be the kingdoms of God and His Son Christ Jesus at the sounding of the seventh trumpet when His wrath is poured out on those who refuse to repent and turn back to Him accepting His Son Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior, Rev 11:15-19. Satan will be loosed for a time, but only for his own demise as he will take one last attempt to destroy the saints of God using his army of fallen angels to surround the camp of the saints, but his army are consumed by the fire God sends on them and then Jesus will cast Satan into the lake of fire, Rev 20:7-10.

Following Satan being cast into the lake of fire and can no longer accuse the brethren, Rev 12:10, the second resurrection occurs when all who have been slain by Jesus, Rev 19:21, and those who have died before them will hear the voice of Jesus and come to stand in the great white throne judgment of Gods final judgment where Jesus opens the books (plural) and not finding their names written in the book of life are then cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more. Jesus taught that there will be two general resurrections, John 5:25-29, one to eternal life and the other to damnation. Believers in Christ will escape the great white throne Judgment because their debts and transgressions have been paid for by Christ, Colossians 2:13, 14, and their names are found in the book of life as they have eternal life with the Father.

 

[smaller]

Paul was saved three and one half years after the crucifixion. He was the "Apostle to the Gentiles" therefore closing the age of the Jews and ushering in the age of the Gentiles. Jews now have the very same path to salvation as the Gentiles, they are no different now than anyone else. I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church. I think it's a false teaching the devil has given us to weaken the church.

Where did you pick up that number from the scriptures? Just curious.

 

[smaller]

How can one believe if they are so sin laden by Satan that even God will not forgive their sins as per what you have said about God does not forgive our sins.

I've never said that and have stated to you I've never said that twice now. I also already explained in this thread why no sin is ever forgiven, yet man is forgiven. 2 Cor. 5:19.

 

[smaller]

By this it makes me believe you know nothing of the cross and Christ's finished works on it nor the Spiritual rebirth and that of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

If you had specific critique rather than an anomalous statement without specifics it would be helpful.

 

[for_his_glory]

I've never said that and have stated to you I've never said that twice now. I also already explained in this thread why no sin is ever forgiven, yet man is forgiven. 2 Cor. 5:19.

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

What do you think trespasses mean if they are not our sin? When we are that of the Spiritual rebirth of John 3:3-6; Romans 10:9,10 God wipes our slate clean as He remembers our past sins no more. Can you explain the finished works of Christ on the cross?

 

[for_his_glory]

If you had specific critique rather than an anomalous statement without specifics it would be helpful.

You said God does not forgive our sin and that led me to possibly believe you did not understand the finished works of Christ on the cross who gave Himself as the final sacrifice for sin as He paid a debt He did not owe and we owe Him a debt we could never pay.

 

[reba]

for_his_glory and smaller get this settled and move on .. or take it to PM .. .
a couple options :
let the other guy alone in their beliefs
take it to PM
forget it and move on
It is OK to let the other guy settle their account with God .

ADMIN

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

Where did you pick up that number from the scriptures? Just curious.

It probably isn't scriptural but just general knowledge. I will not argue with anyone over the rapture of the Church. We are all Christians and we should show each other love no matter what we believe about the rapture of the Church. No matter when it happens we should be about the Father's business.

 

[turnorburn]

From early on i saw the rapture doctrine as a smokescreen..

 

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory and smaller get this settled and move on .. or take it to PM .. .
a couple options :
let the other guy alone in their beliefs
take it to PM
forget it and move on
It is OK to let the other guy settle their account with God .

ADMIN

Sorry Reba, I meant no disrespect to smaller for what he brings to the table and should have ended it a while back. Thank you and am moving on.

 

[reba]

Thanks

 

[Sinthesis]

Up until just a few years ago it was believed that the 70th week in Danial was from the time of the beginning of Jesus ministry, until the time of Paul's salvation. The "abomination that made desolation" was the crucifixion of Christ which was three and one half years into his ministry. Paul was saved three and one half years after the crucifixion. He was the "Apostle to the Gentiles" therefore closing the age of the Jews and ushering in the age of the Gentiles. Jews now have the very same path to salvation as the Gentiles, they are no different now than anyone else. I do not believe in the pre-trib rapture of the church. I think it's a false teaching the devil has given us to weaken the church.

Pretty much correct. I would say the martyrdom of Stephen ended the 70th week, while the conversion of Saul/Paul soon after served as the beginning of the age of the Gentiles.