Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[smaller]

I disagree 1th 4 :& says all that it says this
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Apparently our eternal fate is to be permanently and forever suspended in our upper atmosphere huh Reba?

 

[Free]

As has been stated either earlier in this thread or recently in another thread, 1 Thess. 4:17 could very well be about believers meeting the Lord in the air at his return, and then continuing with him on his journey down to earth. This is based on the custom of the time of a king returning to his city after going on journey--people of the city would go out to meet the king before he reached the city and then accompany him the rest of the way back. Makes sense.

 

[for_his_glory]

And you apparently can't see the circular logic and double dealings that are employed regarding our own sins, which I consider quite hypocritical.



If Grace forgave your sins it forgave all sins.



No one in a vile body is sinless, period. Paul openly and quite truthfully claimed to be the chief of sinners, AFTER salvation. Believers just can't seem to believe their own eyes when they read it. 1 Tim. 1:15.

I put up a post this a.m. in the A&T forum under "what works will be burned up" thread that explains my understandings on the above if you care to read it.

And yes, it does apply to this same topic.

I'm not going to make this about this vile body and sin for that is not the topic and you and I have already been around the block on this and need not go back there again.

"IF" grace, do you not believe grace forgives all sin?

 

[smaller]

I'm not going to make this about this vile body and sin for that is not the topic and you and I have already been around the block on this and need not go back there again.

"IF" grace, do you not believe grace forgives all sin?

No, I don't. I actually believe that not a single sin is forgiven.

 

[Free]

No, I don't. I actually believe that not a single sin is forgiven.

Based on the Bible or the Qur'an?

 

[for_his_glory]

I disagree 1th 4 :& says all that it says this
1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You also need 1Corinthians 15:51-57 to go along with what is said in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 to have the whole transpiring of what happens to us when Christ returns, what we will look like, 1John 3:1-3, and when He will return, John 6:40, even though we not know the day or the hour of His return.

1Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[smaller]

Based on the Bible or the Qur'an?

Based on the fact that "sin is of the devil," 1 John 3:8, and God in Christ does not forgive, pardon or save devils.

I might even think you or any believer who thought about it for minute might agree with that assessment.

 

[reba]

Ok i will stop... the point has well been made.

 

[for_his_glory]

That's pretty funny. Hey, when you happen to see Satan zooming around up in the air/atmosphere, give me a hollar!

Sorry, but some sights on theology are really a bad joke and those who think like you have shown really should take a few steps back and reassess.

Who said we can see Satan as he is spirit not flesh and blood and if you do not believe Job 1:6,7; Ephesians 6:12 that is your choice to make.

 

[smaller]

Who said we can see Satan as he is spirit not flesh and blood and if you do not believe Job 1:6,7; Ephesians 6:12 that is your choice to make.

Yeah, well you want a literal physical air atmosphere but a non-physical unseen entity floating around therein.

You wouldn't be the first person to try to play both sides of the fence.

IN any case of scriptural sights we are to know Jesus after the flesh no longer. (2 Cor. 5:16) This rules out a 'flesh Jesus' showing up somewhere around 60,000' AGL and us being permanently suspended forever "in the air."

 

[for_his_glory]

No, I don't. I actually believe that not a single sin is forgiven.

WOW!!!

 

[smaller]

WOW!!!

I don't believe in Satanic salvation. Do you?!

1 John 3:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

It's a fairly simple scriptural principle. Devil(s) sin and they are never forgiven or saved NOR is a single sin forgiven and THEY are up to their eyeballs in all SIN.

 

[for_his_glory]

Who are "the dead?"

Since you do not believe that our sins can be forgiven then there is no point in saying who the dead are. So you do not believe there is a second coming of Christ?

 

[smaller]

Since you do not believe that our sins can be forgiven then there is no point in saying who the dead are. So you do not believe there is a second coming of Christ?

Did I say either of those? Uh, no.

Read the fine print. It promotes good communications.

I believe Matt. 25 is exactly how it comes down and that Matt. 25 is in Perfect Accord with any other end time sight, such as this one found in Isaiah 25:

7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

Isaiah 26 also shows us that His People will be here when it happens:

17 Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord.
18 We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

 

[for_his_glory]

Based on the fact that "sin is of the devil," 1 John 3:8, and God in Christ does not forgive, pardon or save devils.

I might even think you or any believer who thought about it for minute might agree with that assessment.

you need to read the rest in 1John3: 9, 10.

 

[Free]

Based on the fact that "sin is of the devil," 1 John 3:8, and God in Christ does not forgive, pardon or save devils.

I might even think you or any believer who thought about it for minute might agree with that assessment.

Which assessment, that "sin is of the devil" or that "God in Christ does not forgive, pardon or save devils"?

I disagree with the first, as you have stated it, and agree with the second. One would have to ignore many passages in the NT to think that not one sin has been forgiven and that it is only devils that sin.

 

[smaller]

Which assessment, that "sin is of the devil" or that "God in Christ does not forgive, pardon or save devils"?

There is no which.

I disagree with the first, as you have stated it, and agree with the second. One would have to ignore many passages in the NT to think that not one sin has been forgiven and that it is only devils that sin.

The fact that Satan sins IN MAN is beyond dispute. Mark 4:15 shows the theft (a SIN) of Word from every heart. This is WHY people don't and can't believe. See also Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4 AND Eph. 2:2 for identical scriptural confirmation of this THEFT, this SIN of Satan, the spirit of disobedience, in man.

No person can believe unless God in Christ Himself Chooses to rebuke the destroyer, the "covering" that is upon them.

Mankind does not have sin attributed to their account. 2 Cor. 5:19.

This does NOT mean devils will not have sin attributed to them. They will have every sin attributed to them.

 

[smaller]

you need to read the rest in 1John3: 9, 10.

I know that the end time is about the final delivery of us from this wicked world, that IS so because of Satan and his messengers and that is also why we "require" the final change that is spoken of in Phil. 3:21 and 1 Cor. 15 as a "collective" event, when all the enemies inclusive of death are finally put down. And yes, any believer who is still alive will see everything, right to the end.

 

[Free]

There is no which.

You are making two different claims, as I have shown.

The fact that Satan sins IN MAN is beyond dispute. Mark 4:15 shows the theft (a SIN) of Word from every heart. This is WHY people don't and can't believe. See also Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4 AND Eph. 2:2 for identical scriptural confirmation of this THEFT, this SIN of Satan in man.

Whether or not Satan sins in man is entirely irrelevant as to whether or not man himself sins and is in need of forgiveness. I'm not sure why you gave Acts 26:18 as it clearly shows that at salvation one's sins are forgiven.

Mankind does not have sin attributed to their account. 2 Cor. 5:19.

This does NOT mean devils will not have sin attributed to them. They will have every sin attributed to them.

So you're a universalist then, correct?

 

[smaller]

You are making two different claims, as I have shown.

Your rejection is that sin isn't of the devil, or perhaps more accurately, your sin? 1 John 3:8 doesn't provide any wiggle room that I can see.

Whether or not Satan sins in man is entirely irrelevant as to whether or not man himself sins

IF you see that there are two parties involved you would not see man only, which is what you are trying to see.

The instant you concede that your sin is of the devil, you'll see it. But because of the other party this sight can not be seen because it's the truth and devils can't speak truth. John 8:44. There is no truth in them to speak it.

and is in need of forgiveness. I'm not sure why you gave Acts 26:18 as it clearly shows that at salvation one's sins are forgiven.

What it shows is that unbelievers are under the power and domain of Satan. When we believe the role is technically reversed. We are put in dominion, but we do not eradicate the influences of evil and lusts upon our flesh, which are in fact demonic.

So you're a universalist then, correct?

I reject branding, so don't bother. As to Satan and devils being universally condemned, ABSOLUTELY.

And so are you.