Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[smaller]

It probably isn't scriptural but just general knowledge. I will not argue with anyone over the rapture of the Church. We are all Christians and we should show each other love no matter what we believe about the rapture of the Church. No matter when it happens we should be about the Father's business.

I was referring to the 3 1/2 year time frame from the resurrection to the start of Paul's ministry.

 

[smaller]

Duplicate post

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

Pretty much correct. I would say the martyrdom of Stephen ended the 70th week, while the conversion of Saul/Paul soon after served as the beginning of the age of the Gentiles.

Thank you.

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

I was referring to the 3 1/2 year time frame from the resurrection to the start of Paul's ministry.

It may not be in scripture, but I think it was a widely held belief until the dispensationalists took over in the early 1900's. The pre-trib rapture idea wasn't even in existence until the mid-1800's.

 

[Douglas Summers]

. they made an opened display of rejecting the Gospel message as they stoned Stephen being the final messenger that was sent to give them their last chance to repent. The Jews were now rejected as God’s chosen people and were no different from the Gentiles as from that time forth each individual, Jew and Gentile has to make their own decision to accept or reject Jesus as Lord and Savior, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10. The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21.

That would make sense if you believe that the Church has taken the place of Israel. You have a lot of things (not all) that are true, but God has not rejected Israel. In fact, He called the Gentile into the Church to make Israel jealous to get them to be zealous for the Lord. Here is where our understandings differ. I have followed after the understanding that Israel and the Church are two different things in Gods purpose. I think that you believe that the Church takes the place of Israel...Is that what you believe?

 

[for_his_glory]

That would make sense if you believe that the Church has taken the place of Israel. You have a lot of things (not all) that are true, but God has not rejected Israel. In fact, He called the Gentile into the Church to make Israel jealous to get them to be zealous for the Lord. Here is where our understandings differ. I have followed after the understanding that Israel and the Church are two different things in Gods purpose. I think that you believe that the Church takes the place of Israel...Is that what you believe?

The Church doesn't take the place of Israel, but joins the two as one as God still waits for generational Israel to repent and accept Jesus as Messiah just as he waits for the Gentiles to repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah. Is that not what Galatians 3:28 means that we are all one in the body of Christ that makes up His true Church without walls as we are no longer under the bondage of the law, but now under grace as the greatest law s love? Jeremiah 3:6-11 God divorced Israel, but did save a remnant that kept their faith in Him before Messiah come as prophesied by the Prophets.

 

[smaller]

It may not be in scripture, but I think it was a widely held belief until the dispensationalists took over in the early 1900's. The pre-trib rapture idea wasn't even in existence until the mid-1800's.

It's a claim I've never heard before. That's why I asked.

And fwiw I don't hold to any of the std. pre/mid/post trib theories for many reasons but also like you not all that interested in making a big deal about it.

I do like to dialog on the subjects from the scriptures because I do believe there is always the possibility of adding to my dissection arsenal by sharing. Spent a lot of time over the years in the allegory/symbolism/parable arena which was started about 3 decades ago from trying to understand the intricacies of Revelation in conjunction with other segments of the scriptures. Always trying to probe deeper understandings by/from sharing but it's gotten progressively harder to find believers who have much depth in the arena.

 

[Randy]

Revelation 19:14 we see Jesus coming with His armies (armies being plural) which comprises the host (angels) of heaven that come down from heaven with Him. The faithful saints of God both asleep in the grave and those who are still alive at His coming will be gathered together and given new glorified bodies as we are now called to the marriage supper of the Lamb. The faithful saints of God are caught up to meet Jesus and His host in the air (being the point where we will be gathered to Him) as we will then be with the Lord forever when He comes to plant His feet on the mount of Olives and makes an end to all abominations that cause desolation (makes an end of sin) as Jesus will destroy the great harlot of mystery Babylon casting the beast, false prophet and Satan into the lake of fire. (Daniel 8:13,14; 12:1-4; Matthew 16:27, 28; 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Jude 1:14; 2Thessalonians 1:7-10; Jude 1:14-21; Rev 17:14)

John 5:21-30 are the words of Jesus that shows us He is the one who sits on the great white throne in Gods final judgement and Paul confirms this in Acts 17:31. Jesus brings His rewards with Him on the last day, John 6:40; Revelation 22:10-21, and after exposing mystery Babylon and her great harlot, Jesus then destroys her by casting the beast, false prophet into the lake of fire. After this the remnant that are still alive and have followed after the harlot having no faith in God are slain by the words of Jesus as they like those before them have physically died in their sins against God and sleep in the grave where they will be resurrected from the grave to stand in Gods final judgement. Revelation 17:7-18; 18:1-19; 19:20, 21; 20:10.

Rev 20:1-3 Satan is bound for a while during this thousand year reign of Christ as he can no longer deceive the nations (people). The word thousand is not literal here, but symbolic for a large number or a long period of time as in these scriptures: Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Ecclesiastes 6:6; 7:28; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; Daniel 5:1; 7:10; 2Peter 3:8. Many look for a physical kingdom and read into Rev 20 that Christ will reign for a thousand years. The truth is that Christ has always reigned with God from the foundation of the world and for eternity even though Satan caused the nations (kingdoms of God) to sin against God, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-17, those kingdoms will once be the kingdoms of God and His Son Christ Jesus at the sounding of the seventh trumpet when His wrath is poured out on those who refuse to repent and turn back to Him accepting His Son Christ Jesus as their Lord and Savior, Rev 11:15-19. Satan will be loosed for a time, but only for his own demise as he will take one last attempt to destroy the saints of God using his army of fallen angels to surround the camp of the saints, but his army are consumed by the fire God sends on them and then Jesus will cast Satan into the lake of fire, Rev 20:7-10.

Following Satan being cast into the lake of fire and can no longer accuse the brethren, Rev 12:10, the second resurrection occurs when all who have been slain by Jesus, Rev 19:21, and those who have died before them will hear the voice of Jesus and come to stand in the great white throne judgment of Gods final judgment where Jesus opens the books (plural) and not finding their names written in the book of life are then cast into the lake of fire and remembered no more. Jesus taught that there will be two general resurrections, John 5:25-29, one to eternal life and the other to damnation. Believers in Christ will escape the great white throne Judgment because their debts and transgressions have been paid for by Christ, Colossians 2:13, 14, and their names are found in the book of life as they have eternal life with the Father.

Who told you the 1000 years clearly stated in scripture is not to be taken as trustworthy and true? Find out as that is who or the teaching you follow.

Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. 1260 days of testimony as I read. After their testimony the beast kills them. Now the beast is in the world. (great tribulation) The beast, as I read, is released at the sounding of the 5th trump call of God. The kingdom of this world doesn't become the Kingdom of God and of His Christ until the sounding of the 7th trump call of God. The bowl judgments are the last of Gods judgments and are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. rev 15 and 16 The 5th to 7th bowl judgments therefore occur in parellel to the bowl judgments. In the end that beast, (as Paul wrote as well- 2thess), is destroyed by a coming of Jesus not human power. Rev 16:15 There is no pretrib pullout of anyone . Those left alive on earth at the Lords return will be caught up into the air and clothed with immortality as flesh and blood can't inherit eternal life. We all are promised new bodies at the resurrection of the righteous which is clear to me the 1st resurrection not the 2nd which is 1000 years later as I read.

Randy

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

It's a claim I've never heard before. That's why I asked.

And fwiw I don't hold to any of the std. pre/mid/post trib theories for many reasons but also like you not all that interested in making a big deal about it.

I do like to dialog on the subjects from the scriptures because I do believe there is always the possibility of adding to my dissection arsenal by sharing. Spent a lot of time over the years in the allegory/symbolism/parable arena which was started about 3 decades ago from trying to understand the intricacies of Revelation in conjunction with other segments of the scriptures. Always trying to probe deeper understandings by/from sharing but it's gotten progressively harder to find believers who have much depth in the arena.

This is what I think. If you believe you know what is going to happen and you have Revelation all figured out, your lying. I am with you the more I study the less I know. I think I know some things that God has revealed but they are totally outside the "norm" this I just keep my mouth shut. Jesus will return and we need to be always watching for Him.

 

[smaller]

This is what I think. If you believe you know what is going to happen and you have Revelation all figured out, your lying. I am with you the more I study the less I know. I think I know some things that God has revealed but they are totally outside the "norm" this I just keep my mouth shut. Jesus will return and we need to be always watching for Him.

After well over 3 decades of studies I have come to a few of what I consider "solid" conclusions on end time matters.

One is that Satan and his messengers will be destroyed. I think this is a Rock Solid scriptural conclusion and a lock/fixed.

I also do NOT believe that the matters of end time are external i.e. all the nonsense that is perpetually spouted about external dire events and various other external events. The tribulation at that time will be great and IT WILL BE PERSONAL, because the enemies of man including believers are INTERNAL and UNSEEN.

The tools of Gods Destruction of these internal enemies are NOT as we perceive. These Divine tools/receipts should actually be PLEASANT for us to receive, but NOT pleasant to our enemies.

Read about the spiritual flood that is to come from Isaiah regarding "as the waters of Noah" for an inside end time account in Isaiah 54:8-10 that Jesus refers to in Matt. 24 and Luke 17.

It's just not like we are led to think.

 

[reba]

It may not be in scripture, but I think it was a widely held belief until the dispensationalists took over in the early 1900's. The pre-trib rapture idea wasn't even in existence until the mid-1800's.

Scofield's bible.. now Swaggart has one grest

 

[for_his_glory]

Who told you the 1000 years clearly stated in scripture is not to be taken as trustworthy and true? Find out as that is who or the teaching you follow.

Rev 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. 1260 days of testimony as I read. After their testimony the beast kills them. Now the beast is in the world. (great tribulation) The beast, as I read, is released at the sounding of the 5th trump call of God. The kingdom of this world doesn't become the Kingdom of God and of His Christ until the sounding of the 7th trump call of God. The bowl judgments are the last of Gods judgments and are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. rev 15 and 16 The 5th to 7th bowl judgments therefore occur in parellel to the bowl judgments. In the end that beast, (as Paul wrote as well- 2thess), is destroyed by a coming of Jesus not human power. Rev 16:15 There is no pretrib pullout of anyone . Those left alive on earth at the Lords return will be caught up into the air and clothed with immortality as flesh and blood can't inherit eternal life. We all are promised new bodies at the resurrection of the righteous which is clear to me the 1st resurrection not the 2nd which is 1000 years later as I read.

Randy

Hi Randy,

My understanding comes straight from scripture as no one has ever taught me that of what I write other than what the Holy Spirit reveals to me as I compare scripture with scripture, OT to NT and studying the parts of history and culture that is prevalent to the time.

I do not believe in a pretrib or post-trib rapture as scripture says Jesus does not return until the last day, John 6:40, and we will be caught up together with those who sleep in the grave and then are given our new glorified bodies, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, and at that moment of Christ return in Rev 19 we will be part of that army on the last day as Jesus will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire.

I don't believe it will be a 1000 years before Jesus cast Satan into the lake of fire, but only that of Gods timing that is not the same as our timing of hours, days and years. Why would Jesus make us wait another 1000 years to cast Satan into the lake of fire after consuming Satan's army with fire before God makes the heaven and earth new again then ushering down the new Jerusalem. When Christ returns and plants His feet on the mount of Olives in Rev 19 He makes an end to all abominations that have caused desolation with the last being Satan cast into the lake of fire. I believe everything from the seventh trumpet sounding covers everything from Revelation 11:15 through Rev Chapter 21 as Rev 22:12 says Jesus comes quickly.

 

[Randy]

Hi Randy,

My understanding comes straight from scripture as no one has ever taught me that of what I write other than what the Holy Spirit reveals to me as I compare scripture with scripture, OT to NT and studying the parts of history and culture that is prevalent to the time.

I do not believe in a pretrib or post-trib rapture as scripture says Jesus does not return until the last day, John 6:40, and we will be caught up together with those who sleep in the grave and then are given our new glorified bodies, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, and at that moment of Christ return in Rev 19 we will be part of that army on the last day as Jesus will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire.

I don't believe it will be a 1000 years before Jesus cast Satan into the lake of fire, but only that of Gods timing that is not the same as our timing of hours, days and years. Why would Jesus make us wait another 1000 years to cast Satan into the lake of fire after consuming Satan's army with fire before God makes the heaven and earth new again then ushering down the new Jerusalem. When Christ returns and plants His feet on the mount of Olives in Rev 19 He makes an end to all abominations that have caused desolation with the last being Satan cast into the lake of fire. I believe everything from the seventh trumpet sounding covers everything from Revelation 11:15 through Rev Chapter 21 as Rev 22:12 says Jesus comes quickly.

Post trib would be considered the last day. Rev 16:15 The beast is overthrown by a coming of the Lord. Those left alive are caught up in the air...

I would state you are mistaken on the 1000 years as I read in rev 20.

Randy

 

[smaller]

This statement from Jesus effectively rules out a pre-trib rapture:

Matthew 13:49
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Both parties will still be present at the end of the world. And they will be severed or divided from each others, just as Matt. 25 also shows us.

 

[for_his_glory]

Post trib would be considered the last day. Rev 16:15 The beast is overthrown by a coming of the Lord. Those left alive are caught up in the air...

I would state you are mistaken on the 1000 years as I read in rev 20.

Randy

Whether the 1000 years is literal or not, which in any case is not so much prevalent, I can only draw my conclusion on that it is not a literal number, but a metaphorical numbering as in these scriptures,
Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecclesiastes 6:6; 7:28, Daniel 5:1, 7:10; 2Peter 3:8

I really do not like labeling as in pretrib, mid or post as I already said the last day according to John 6:40 is when we are caught up to Christ. I believe by how I study this is that the order of events of Christ return are in this order:
1. vial judgments are poured out on those who reject Christ, Rev Chapter 16
2. Mystery Babylon is exposed as being a great harlot then she is destroyed, Rev Chapter 17
3. Babylon the great being the city where the beast and false prophet reign from is destroyed by God, Rev Chapter 18, as He calls his people to come out of her and not to partake of her sins nor her plagues (all people are Gods for He created them, but not all will have faith in Him and will reject Jesus)
4. The marriage supper of the Lamb comes as we are then caught up to meet Jesus and his army of angels that descend down from heaven as we are gathered to Jesus as this is the first resurrection, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, Rev Chapter 19; 20:4-6
5. Jesus plants His feet on the mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, then destroys the beast and the false prophet casting them into the lake of fire. Jesus then proceeds to slain the remnant of the those who hold power over the nations and their armies that try to come against Jesus to do battle with Him and His army of angels, Rev 19:11-21
6. Satan is bound by God for a specific time period that he could not deceive the nations no more. He is then released to deceive the nations (people) to gather them together to battle as they surround the came of the saints, but God devours them with fire and then Satan is cast into the lake of fire.
7. The second resurrection of the dead comes as they who have died rejecting Christ will be raised to stand in Gods great white throne judgment as their names are not found written in the book of life and are cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:6-15

 

[Douglas Summers]

This statement from Jesus effectively rules out a pre-trib rapture:

Matthew 13:49
So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Both parties will still be present at the end of the world. And they will be severed or divided from each others, just as Matt. 25 also shows us.

That statement is to Israel. All the Synoptic gospels are about Israel. The Church is only mentioned as a future calling. The church's beginning on earth starts with the Act's of the Apostles through Revelation chapter 4. It is the Church that God has brought together as one new man (Jew and Gentile). Israel is not the Church. God has made specific promises to Israel relating to it's earthly position. The promises to the Church are related to heavenly positions (WITH the Rule of Christ) Israelite's or the Jew are subjects of the Kingdom. The Church's only identity are the Son's of God, Heirs of God, brothers of Christ. The Church is Family. Israel or the Jew are citizens.

 

[Douglas Summers]

, I can only draw my conclusion on that it is not a literal number, but a metaphorical numbering as in these scriptures,

Glory, if you draw YOUR conclusions of Scripture for interpretation, then that is your conclusion. The Holy Spirit teaches in absolutes and affirmation.

 

[for_his_glory]

Glory, if you draw YOUR conclusions of Scripture for interpretation, then that is your conclusion. The Holy Spirit teaches in absolutes and affirmation.

I'm just saying that I do not know if the 1000 years is literal or not as I have only compared those scriptures that speak of the number 1000 with this 1000 in Rev 20. It's only one of those IMO thing that is not fact based to me as of yet. Everything else in my OP and throughout this thread is absolute to me of what I believe to be truth as the Holy Spirit confirms with cross referencing scripture. Will everyone agree with me, no, and I have no problem with that.

 

[Randy]

Whether the 1000 years is literal or not, which in any case is not so much prevalent, I can only draw my conclusion on that it is not a literal number, but a metaphorical numbering as in these scriptures,
Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecclesiastes 6:6; 7:28, Daniel 5:1, 7:10; 2Peter 3:8

I really do not like labeling as in pretrib, mid or post as I already said the last day according to John 6:40 is when we are caught up to Christ. I believe by how I study this is that the order of events of Christ return are in this order:
1. vial judgments are poured out on those who reject Christ, Rev Chapter 16
2. Mystery Babylon is exposed as being a great harlot then she is destroyed, Rev Chapter 17
3. Babylon the great being the city where the beast and false prophet reign from is destroyed by God, Rev Chapter 18, as He calls his people to come out of her and not to partake of her sins nor her plagues (all people are Gods for He created them, but not all will have faith in Him and will reject Jesus)
4. The marriage supper of the Lamb comes as we are then caught up to meet Jesus and his army of angels that descend down from heaven as we are gathered to Jesus as this is the first resurrection, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, Rev Chapter 19; 20:4-6
5. Jesus plants His feet on the mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, then destroys the beast and the false prophet casting them into the lake of fire. Jesus then proceeds to slain the remnant of the those who hold power over the nations and their armies that try to come against Jesus to do battle with Him and His army of angels, Rev 19:11-21
6. Satan is bound by God for a specific time period that he could not deceive the nations no more. He is then released to deceive the nations (people) to gather them together to battle as they surround the came of the saints, but God devours them with fire and then Satan is cast into the lake of fire.
7. The second resurrection of the dead comes as they who have died rejecting Christ will be raised to stand in Gods great white throne judgment as their names are not found written in the book of life and are cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:6-15

You may not accept the 1000 years as stated in Rev but the reason isn't because Jesus failed to make the testimony clear. He gave that testimony and all I read is basically Rev is hard to understand and isn't clear. There is a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous as stated in Daniel and the gospels but God has made it clear in Rev that there is 1000 years between them. You either believe God or you don't but Rev 20 is a clear read.

Rev 20
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.

Psalm 110
The Lord says to my lord,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies your footstool.”

 

[smaller]

That statement is to Israel. All the Synoptic gospels are about Israel.

There is a simple "fact check" that I apply to every claim of understanding about scripture from anyone. It's found in Matt. 4:4 and again in Luke 4:4.

Your claim above doesn't and can't stand up to that measure.

The Church is only mentioned as a future calling. The church's beginning on earth starts with the Act's of the Apostles through Revelation chapter 4.

So, because you took a wrong turn of understanding in the first attempt above, then you move to justify that false claim. And Paul in 1 Cor. 10 does a full on smackdown of what you are attempting in this second attempt at spinning the narrative. In the process your first errant claim #2 collapses because Paul says otherwise. If you read Acts 7:38 your claim #2 is stopped dead in it's tracks with a single scripture.

Knowing this the claims will either have to be scrapped or the claim is just another false claim that is hung out there without scriptural support.

It is the Church that God has brought together as one new man (Jew and Gentile). Israel is not the Church. God has made specific promises to Israel relating to it's earthly position.

Israel is a very deep subject in scripture. Does it merely mean a nation of people in the middle east? No. The fathers of faith, Abraham/Isaac and Jacob hold many clues about the nature of Israel in their writings. To understand Israel one has to go back to when and where the term originated, and how. It is found with Jacob. And the meaning of Israel points directly to our Divine Sovereign. For people, any people of faith in Christ, the meaning of Israel is "God Prevails." Anyone who has been called into Christ wears that banner for themselves, Israel, "God Prevails."

I accept that name, that term, Israel, to be a statement of the basis of our faith. It has nearly nothing to do with a spot of land or an ethnic group of people. Paul goes to the same landing place here:

Galatians 6:
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Israel or the Jew are citizens.

Uh, again, no.

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You have taken on a bad foundational understanding and the errors will just continue to compound. It's nothing new. Happens to a lot of believers.

If we can't get the basics down in scriptural harmony, understanding eschatology is impossible.