Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[smaller]

The tribe of Judah and Benjamin were always faithful to God. See my post #1492

Then perhaps you see the finer sight referenced prior.

 

[for_his_glory]

They are His servants. Whom ever He calls. Many of them are described in the Fifth Seal.

If you cross reference Rev 6:9-11 of those souls under the altar and waiting for their fellow servants and brethren with Acts 2:18 these servants they are waiting for are those who are still alive during the end of days when Gods great wrath is poured out on those who have never repented and accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior. These servant (all who God has anointed and called to preach) will carry the Gospel throughout the nations while all who are still alive and are of Christ are waiting patiently for Christ to return.

 

[smaller]

Revelation 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

By Rev. 13 above we should be able to see saints, still here. Not raptured away.

By Rev. 14, saints, still here:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

In Rev. 18, saints:

Revelation 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation 13:10
He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

By Rev. 13 above we should be able to see saints, still here. Not raptured away.

By Rev. 14, saints, still here:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

In Rev. 18, saints:

Revelation 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

There are only seven trumpets that will sound during Gods great wrath that brings tribulations on those who refuse to repent and at the last trump being the seventh one begins to sound in Rev 11:15 ushers in all the events throughout Revelations until the new Jerusalem is ushered down. At the last trump means somewhere during this time of its sounding we will be caught up to Christ on the last day, John 6:40. I don't get why many refuse to see that being caught up (Rapture) does not happen until the last day when Christ returns. On the last day Christ will return and destroy the beast and the false prophet casting them into the lake of fire and then binding Satan so he can no longer deceive the nations (people) anymore.

Rev 19 shows us that the marriage supper of the Lamb has now been made ready, but never states we are even caught up to Him yet. It is Jesus and His army that return in the air as He destroys the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire and then binding Satan for a time. Rev 20:4-15 during this time of Satan being bound comes the resurrection of all, (as all means saints and those who are not of faith in God), who are asleep in the ground will hear the voice of Christ calling them to come forth as some will be resurrected to eternal life with the Father and others to damnation, John 5:28,29, 1Corinthians 15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 1:1-10; 4:13-18.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

If, according to Galatians 2:9 James, Cephas(Peter), and John are the apostles to the circumcision, and Paul is the apostle to the heathen(gentiles, uncircumcision), why are we trying to apply what was written to the circumcision(Jews), to those of the uncircumcision(heathen),or the church? The church will be "caught up" and then the 7 year tribulation, of which only 144,000 of the Jews will survive and be the earthly kingdom of priest. During the 7 Years of tribulation will be the marriage of the bride and bridegroom, and the marriage feast., then we, as the bride will rule and reign with Christ during the 1000 years.

 

[Douglas Summers]

dirtfarmer here

If, according to Galatians 2:9 James, Cephas(Peter), and John are the apostles to the circumcision, and Paul is the apostle to the heathen(gentiles, uncircumcision), why are we trying to apply what was written to the circumcision(Jews), to those of the uncircumcision(heathen),or the church? The church will be "caught up" and then the 7 year tribulation, of which only 144,000 of the Jews will survive and be the earthly kingdom of priest. During the 7 Years of tribulation will be the marriage of the bride and bridegroom, and the marriage feast., then we, as the bride will rule and reign with Christ during the 1000 years.

I have only heard of that doctrine of the 144,000 to only survive from the JW. I would need a little more information to understand fully what you are teaching.

 

[for_his_glory]

dirtfarmer here

If, according to Galatians 2:9 James, Cephas(Peter), and John are the apostles to the circumcision, and Paul is the apostle to the heathen(gentiles, uncircumcision), why are we trying to apply what was written to the circumcision(Jews), to those of the uncircumcision(heathen),or the church? The church will be "caught up" and then the 7 year tribulation, of which only 144,000 of the Jews will survive and be the earthly kingdom of priest. During the 7 Years of tribulation will be the marriage of the bride and bridegroom, and the marriage feast., then we, as the bride will rule and reign with Christ during the 1000 years.

Rev 7:1-8
John is given another vision after these things, meaning after the first six seals that are revealed to him. He now sees four angels standing on the four corners of the earth holding the four winds of the earth in order that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree until Gods servants were sealed.

These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan is not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

When studying the history of the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob/Israel we find from 1047 B.C. and 931 B.C. the twelve tribes were under the leadership of three Kings, Saul, David and Solomon. Near the end of Solomon's reign he fell into idolatry and God spoke of tearing apart the Kingdom as judgment for these sins, 1 Kings 11:10-12.

After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin (Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God. For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as he turned the northern Kingdom into idol worshippers.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshipping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with Peters instruction in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2, as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I have only heard of that doctrine of the 144,000 to only survive from the JW. I would need a little more information to understand fully what you are teaching.

hello Douglas Summers, dirtfarmer here

The JW doctrine states that only 144,000 JW's will go to heaven. The 144,000 Jews that are sealed during the tribulation are of the nation of Israel and are the kingdom of priests.

 

[Douglas Summers]

hello Douglas Summers, dirtfarmer here

The JW doctrine states that only 144,000 JW's will go to heaven. The 144,000 Jews that are sealed during the tribulation are of the nation of Israel and are the kingdom of priests.

Thanks, that is what I thought. We, or I believe that the Church is the one new man out of the Jew and Gentile that has knocked down the wall or partition and enmity and the Law of commandments between the two., and that the Church is the kingdom of priest and kings by adoption as sons of God, heirs to the throne. Letter to the Ephesians and Romans Chapter 8.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Thanks, that is what I thought. We, or I believe that the Church is the one new man out of the Jew and Gentile that has knocked down the wall or partition and enmity and the Law of commandments between the two., and that the Church is the kingdom of priest and kings by adoption as sons of God, heirs to the throne. Letter to the Ephesians and Romans Chapter 8.

hello Douglas Summers, dirtfarmer here

The Church is not the "kingdom of priest", that will be the nation of Israel after the Church, the bride of Christ, has been "caught up" and the marriage of the bridegroom(Christ) and the bride(Church) have consummated their wedding and the wedding feast has happen in heaven.
Israel is to be the kingdom of priest, not the Church. The Church will rule and reign with Christ during the time that Israel is a kingdom of priest ,the millennium.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Rev 7:1-8
John is given another vision after these things, meaning after the first six seals that are revealed to him. He now sees four angels standing on the four corners of the earth holding the four winds of the earth in order that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree until Gods servants were sealed.

These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan is not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

When studying the history of the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob/Israel we find from 1047 B.C. and 931 B.C. the twelve tribes were under the leadership of three Kings, Saul, David and Solomon. Near the end of Solomon's reign he fell into idolatry and God spoke of tearing apart the Kingdom as judgment for these sins, 1 Kings 11:10-12.

After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin (Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God. For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as he turned the northern Kingdom into idol worshippers.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshipping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with Peters instruction in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God, Isaiah 11:2, as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

It seems as though you are interpreting form a preterist point of view. The persecution of the Jews will be during the tribulation period, after the Church is "caught up". While it is true the enduration to the end is a Jewish point of salvation, but it has to do with the kingdom that is established after the Church is taken up.

The reason that Jesus told the disciples to go "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" is because he was a prophet to Israel. Isaiah 11:2 has to do with the established kingdom, we know this because of v 6-10.

 

[JLB]

The persecution of the Jews will be during the tribulation period, after the Church is "caught up".

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The resurrection/rapture happens at His coming, and is called the gathering, whereby His people both alive and dead will be gathered together in the air and in the clouds to be with Jesus.

Also at the coming of the Lord, the antichrist is destroyed.

Paul clarifies all this in the second letter to the Thessalonians.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


The coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture, is also the coming of the Lord by which the antichrist, false christ, lawless one, man of sin, is destroyed.


I guess my question to you would be: Who is it that's is going to persecute the Jew's after the Church is "caught up"?


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

What or rather where is it written "kingdom of priest"?

 

[Douglas Summers]

What or rather where is it written "kingdom of priest"?

Ex. 19:6; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 1 Pet. 2:9 -10

 

[turnorburn]

Ex. 19:6; Rev. 1:6; 5:10; 1 Pet. 2:9 -10

If it would have been written "kingdom of priests" not "priest" i would have understood..

Thanks for those verses it cleared it up "kind of"

 

[dirtfarmer]

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

The resurrection/rapture happens at His coming, and is called the gathering, whereby His people both alive and dead will be gathered together in the air and in the clouds to be with Jesus.

Also at the coming of the Lord, the antichrist is destroyed.

Paul clarifies all this in the second letter to the Thessalonians.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


The coming of the Lord to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture, is also the coming of the Lord by which the antichrist, false christ, lawless one, man of sin, is destroyed.


I guess my question to you would be: Who is it that's is going to persecute the Jew's after the Church is "caught up"?


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

What does it mean " caught up together them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." If the coming of the Lord to gather his people is in the air, and at the same time the antichrist is destroyed, when will the antichrist set in the temple declaring that he is God?

What does 1 Thessalonians 1:10 mean? " And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." What is the wrath to come? The day of the Lord is spoken about in Joel 1- 2:11

Who is the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians? Which temple of God does he sit in, showing himself to be God? What does it mean " that he might be revealed in his time? Also what or when is his time?

Daniel 7:20-21 " And of the ten horns that were in his head , and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even the horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

Revelation 13:7 " And it was given unto him to make war with the saint, and overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

These verses speak of the Antichrist that will be revealed after the body of believers( the Church) have been "snatched away".

 

[turnorburn]

Do you mean this Antichrist...

II Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Has been around for quite some time..

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

What does it mean " caught up together them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." If the coming of the Lord to gather his people is in the air, and at the same time the antichrist is destroyed, when will the antichrist set in the temple declaring that he is God?

What does 1 Thessalonians 1:10 mean? " And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." What is the wrath to come? The day of the Lord is spoken about in Joel 1- 2:11

Who is the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians? Which temple of God does he sit in, showing himself to be God? What does it mean " that he might be revealed in his time? Also what or when is his time?

Daniel 7:20-21 " And of the ten horns that were in his head , and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even the horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

Revelation 13:7 " And it was given unto him to make war with the saint, and overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

These verses speak of the Antichrist that will be revealed after the body of believers( the Church) have been "snatched away".

Brother,

Please don't throw out a bunch of questions, without answering my simple question to you.

I asked you a simple question, based on what you posted, and provided scriptures that show us the coming of the Lord to resurrect and rapture His people, is also the coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist [the source of persecution].

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:1,8

If the antichrist [the source of persecution] is destroyed by the same coming that resurrects and raptures His people,
Who is it that's is going to persecute the Jew's after the Church is "caught up"?

All the Church, both those who have died, along with those who are alive and remain, are caught up to be with the Lord, in the air, on His way back from Heaven to Jerusalem, while His vengeance is being poured out on the wicked.


Again, the original question: Who is it that's is going to persecute the Jew's after the Church is "caught up"?


Please answer this question, using scripture, then I will answer a question from you.


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

It seems as though you are interpreting form a preterist point of view. The persecution of the Jews will be during the tribulation period, after the Church is "caught up". While it is true the enduration to the end is a Jewish point of salvation, but it has to do with the kingdom that is established after the Church is taken up.

The reason that Jesus told the disciples to go "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" is because he was a prophet to Israel. Isaiah 11:2 has to do with the established kingdom, we know this because of v 6-10.

No, I am not a preterist nor do I follow their views as they teach a false doctrine. I use to believe in a pretrib rapture many years ago until I started studying Revelations plus all the other scriptures they use for support and never found anything that even remotely said the Church will be caught up to Jesus before the seven year tribulation period. This is why I started this thread to show others that all those pretrib theories are not scriptural, especially Rev chapter 4 where they teach the Church is out of here, but it says nothing about any pretrib rapture. I gave many scriptures in the OP that shows the Church (body of Christ) will still be here until the last day after all of Gods wrath has fallen as then Jesus returns with His army of angels on the last day, John 6:40, as now the marriage supper of the lamb has been made ready and the Bride of Christ will soon be caught up to Him after He cast the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire and then binds Satan for a time, Rev 19, 20.

These pretrib theories started with Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland who first told others of a vision she had in 1830. She admitted the vision seemed evil and dark, but many preachers of that time ran with it and eventually their theories were handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. There were no pretrib teachings before 1830 because it is only a theory and not scriptural.

 

[for_his_glory]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

It seems as though you are interpreting form a preterist point of view. The persecution of the Jews will be during the tribulation period, after the Church is "caught up". While it is true the enduration to the end is a Jewish point of salvation, but it has to do with the kingdom that is established after the Church is taken up.

The reason that Jesus told the disciples to go "to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" is because he was a prophet to Israel. Isaiah 11:2 has to do with the established kingdom, we know this because of v 6-10.

The focus in Revelations would seem to center around Israel only and the nations that come against her for this is how John would recognize it to be since all other nations were not yet developed in his time. Revelations is about all of us, Jew and Gentile, past, present and future that by faith keep Gods commandments. We are Gods witnesses that testify of His mercy and grace as we take His word out into the world to those who have ears to hear.

The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.