Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Randy]

satan kills the two witnesses

Not what I read. So I would state you are mistaken.

Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.


Randy

 

[n2thelight]

Not what I read. So I would state you are mistaken.

Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.


Randy

satan is the beast

 

[n2thelight]

Too those who say we shall escape tribulation,what trib are you referring and what's the difference between that trib and what people are going through now,especially in non Christian countries?

 

[th1b.taylor]

If we only had just these three verses to go by in Matthew 24:29-31 that Jesus spoke, this alone shows what we are to look for before Christ returns if we are still alive at His coming. We are not even saved yet as that doesn't happen until Christ returns, Matthew 24:13, as for now we walk by faith as we are obedient to Gods will as we are secure in the knowledge that Christ will come again and then we will have eternal life with Him.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In fact all of Matthew 24 has been written that we can know what must come first before Christ return for even the disciples could not understand those things Jesus spoke until He was taken up and the Holy Spirit sent down to indwell them.

And as I tried to be as nice as possible to point it out, you are committing rape on the scripture by doing this and it cannot stand with a Holy God. You are ignoring, of course, that the Bible, the Christian Version, is of a single context from beginning to end. Then, even worse, you, without stating it, you crawl through the back fence and use the very World-like division of scriptural context and divide it into separate books and separate chapters for context for separated context.

And as if that were not bold enough, at the Foot of the Throne of God, you further commit this Barbaric Act by ripping these verses away from their chapter (excuse me, please, like so stupid Barbarian animal?

We, Christ Followers, Christians, are called to make Disciples because Disciples produce a fruit of their own kind and clearly, even ignoring the rest of the Holy Word of God and camping out, like unto a bunch of Spiritual Fools, on this chapter, it opens with God/Jesus addressing His Disciples.

Please, repent of this!

 

[th1b.taylor]

I don't use vanity I use scripture. I too have the Spirit of Christ in me. You know its freely given to those who ask with a sincere faith.
I don't feel a "need" to debate as I was trying to help you understand.

Randy

Randy,
We seem to be off on a bad foot in the midst of an exercise that, I believe, originated with education in mind but anyone reading this string from start to this point cannot miss that Personal Point of View, Vanity, has taken over and is pulling good men and maybe ladies, deep and then deeper into vanity, sin.

I apologise if I mistook you but there is a good deal of one exercise happening here. I have been requested at one point on these forums to rename Scriptural Rape because one Dear Hearted Lady is deeply offended when she views the term but, at this point, I am deeply and I do mean deeply offended by a person I had considered to be of the faith with his ripping, raping, the Word and I should have looked back in this string to learn to know and I failed in my responsibilities, I am sorry.

Right now I just awoke to a couple of dozen messages from an illness induced, long, long, rest and we need to converse to get to know one another.

 

[JLB]

Too those who say we shall escape tribulation,what trib are you referring and what's the difference between that trib and what people are going through now,especially in non Christian countries?

Good answer, they are being martyred for Him everyday.


However to answer your question....

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21

70 AD will look like a Disney Theme Park adventure in comparison.


JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

Good answer, they are being martyred for Him everyday.


However to answer your question....

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21

70 AD will look like a Disney Theme Park adventure in comparison.


JLB

AMEN! And there are, basically three positions on the Rapture's timing, all three centering on some scriptures while ignoring other scriptures. At the point I just described, this can become vanity, as it has here. A simple discussion of Personal Belief can be enlightening but when it becomes a point of contention, it has become pride and thus, sin! When any person begins to isolate (rape) to control the scriptures it can, I firmly believe that can and possibly has, become a sin unto death.

Fight the Good fight JLB and may God bless.

 

[smaller]

Believers often mistake thee tribulation as a matter to fall upon people.

Revelation reality IS that thee Great tribulation falls upon our enemies, the devil and his messengers.

Revelation 18:
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

The "her" being referred to is quite plain in Rev. vs. 2. It is Gods people who come out of her to perform this vengeance. Vs. 4, same chapter.

 

[for_his_glory]

And as I tried to be as nice as possible to point it out, you are committing rape on the scripture by doing this and it cannot stand with a Holy God. You are ignoring, of course, that the Bible, the Christian Version, is of a single context from beginning to end. Then, even worse, you, without stating it, you crawl through the back fence and use the very World-like division of scriptural context and divide it into separate books and separate chapters for context for separated context.

And as if that were not bold enough, at the Foot of the Throne of God, you further commit this Barbaric Act by ripping these verses away from their chapter (excuse me, please, like so stupid Barbarian animal?

We, Christ Followers, Christians, are called to make Disciples because Disciples produce a fruit of their own kind and clearly, even ignoring the rest of the Holy Word of God and camping out, like unto a bunch of Spiritual Fools, on this chapter, it opens with God/Jesus addressing His Disciples.

Please, repent of this!

I'm not going to dignify what you have written since there is no fruit of love in what you have posted nor have you even tried to discuss your views other than criticizing me as someone who would be classified a blasphemer by what you have said. I stand by what I believe and I know if I am wrong then the Holy Spirit will convict me and not you. I feel sad for you Bill that you deem yourself the final authority on the word of God instead of Gods word being the final authority in all things.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm not going to dignify what you have written since there is no fruit of love in what you have posted nor have you even tried to discuss your views other than criticizing me as someone who would be classified a blasphemer by what you have said. I stand by what I believe and I know if I am wrong then the Holy Spirit will convict me and not you. I feel sad for you Bill that you deem yourself the final authority on the word of God instead of Gods word being the final authority in all things.

There you go again, with the personal attack! I showed you, with love, that you are abusing scripture to dig a well of sin. I could have been much more course but will no longer go there.

Your denial and your twisting of my stand, where the Scripture will remain the Court of Final Authority until my LORD returns causes nothing more than major concern by me and all Christ Following Believers.

Please, notice how quickly you turn this into a personal vendetta. Please turn from this! There is scripture to support all three positions, just as I said, early, in this string.

 

[for_his_glory]

There you go again, with the personal attack! I showed you, with love, that you are abusing scripture to dig a well of sin. I could have been much more course but will no longer go there.

Your denial and your twisting of my stand, where the Scripture will remain the Court of Final Authority until my LORD returns causes nothing more than major concern by me and all Christ Following Believers.

Please, notice how quickly you turn this into a personal vendetta. Please turn from this! There is scripture to support all three positions, just as I said, early, in this string.

The whole purpose of this thread was to show that a pretrib Rapture is not supported with scripture. I could hope there would be a pretrib Rapture of the Church and even believed for many years there would be, but when I got to truly studying all the scriptures that are to support this I found nothing other than, yes, we will be caught up to Christ, but at the last day, John 6:40. I see the last day as being after the seven trumpet and seven vial judgments that falls on those who refuse to repent. After the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and Satan being bound for a time than all, asleep in the grave and those who are still alive at His coming will then be gathered to Christ and will have eternal life with Him and the Father.

What is the whole purpose of putting Matthew 24 and Revelations in the Bible if it was not there to warn us what happens to those who refuse to repent. It would be selfish of ourselves to not want to be here at that time to witness Christ to others no matter what type of persecutions we would face at that time. Revelations is the sum of the whole Bible to those who have ears to hear the call to repent and turn back to God before it's to late.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The whole purpose of this thread was to show that a pretrib Rapture is not supported with scripture. I could hope there would be a pretrib Rapture of the Church and even believed for many years there would be, but when I got to truly studying all the scriptures that are to support this I found nothing other than, yes, we will be caught up to Christ, but at the last day, John 6:40. I see the last day as being after the seven trumpet and seven vial judgments that falls on those who refuse to repent. After the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and Satan being bound for a time than all, asleep in the grave and those who are still alive at His coming will then be gathered to Christ and will have eternal life with Him and the Father.

What is the whole purpose of putting Matthew 24 and Revelations in the Bible if it was not there to warn us what happens to those who refuse to repent. It would be selfish of ourselves to not want to be here at that time to witness Christ to others no matter what type of persecutions we would face at that time. Revelations is the sum of the whole Bible to those who have ears to hear the call to repent and turn back to God before it's to late.

You are now using Satan's pride to justify this pride-filled endeavor? Too late for what, pray tell. The timing of the rapture has nothing, not a solitary thing to do with Salvation. Our mission in this life is the Great Commission.

Did someone lie to you about this being an or the issue for Salvation or did the spirit you listen to teach you this?

[Footnote] Those of you that are young in the faith, please do as Brother Paul teaches us to do and be as the Bereans and always check any teaching against the Bible. And on a personal level, if you ever feel you must disprove something God has not made perfectly clear, please, realize you are on the steep side of a slippery mountain, already. If you feel you must prove me wrong because I have taken the Pre-Trib position, you are not following God, i.e. God, in the last verses of the last chapter of Matthew made it crystal clear that the mission of the Christian (Disciple of Christ) is to work and to strive to make other Disciples, more Christians. What we have here is an argument, purely for the sake of argument that is long overdue a death and repentace.

 

[Douglas Summers]

In fact all of Matthew 24 has been written that we can know what must come first before Christ return for even the disciples could not understand those things Jesus spoke until He was taken up and the Holy Spirit sent down to indwell them.

Christ is speaking hear about Israel under the domination of the Gentile nations called, the (Times of the Gentiles). Since the capture of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar, Israel has been under the dominion and dependence of the Gentile nations as prophesied punishment for disobedience, and the worship of other gods. The warning and prophecies are in (Deuteronomy Chapters 27 thru 30) (DEUT. 28:63-68) Talks about their dispersion to other nations as punishment. (63-68) also describes the exact treatment in Hitlers Germany. To this day, Israel is still under dependence of other nations. God's promise to Israel is to be the head of all nations (Isaiah 2:2-4).
So, this prophecy by Christ in Matthew chapter 24 is the "Tribulation" Israel will go through under the Gentile nations called the (Times of the Gentiles). And Christ's second coming will (fulfill "The times of the Gentile's) Luke 21:24. In which the resurrection of the dead will be judged (Great white throne Judgment). Matthew has nothing to do with the Church.

It is clear, in All Scripture That there is an ethnic division of the Scriptures, (Make no offense neither to the Jew, nor the Greek (Gentile) nor to The Church of God. (1 Cor. 10:32). Each has it's own identity separate from each other. Christ has called out the Church to be a people of His own...Then He will deal with Israel (that is Scriptural) In Acts chapter 15 at the Council of Jerusalem, The question arose from the Jewish Christians that Gentile converts must follow the customs of the Jew. But the Apostles say "not so". Because the Church is a people of Christ that are His own body, and not subject to Jewish customs and laws. But once His people were all called out (the Church) (completed), then He would save Israel and the residue of men. (Act's 15:13-18). You can not teach your own private interpretation of the Scripture and claim they are by the Spirit of God. Please study the Scriptures before you reply.

 

[n2thelight]

Good answer, they are being martyred for Him everyday.


However to answer your question....

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:21

70 AD will look like a Disney Theme Park adventure in comparison.


JLB

The reason why it shall be the greatest is because of the fact that satan shall be here amongst us,live and in color....

The worst that could happen is death,which Christ told us not to fear.....The trib is all about deception,satan pretending to be Christ,which could put your very soul at stake

 

[n2thelight]

Christ is speaking hear about Israel under the domination of the Gentile nations called, the (Times of the Gentiles). Since the capture of Judah by Nebuchadnezzar, Israel has been under the dominion and dependence of the Gentile nations as prophesied punishment for disobedience, and the worship of other gods. The warning and prophecies are in (Deuteronomy Chapters 27 thru 30) (DEUT. 28:63-68) Talks about their dispersion to other nations as punishment. (63-68) also describes the exact treatment in Hitlers Germany. To this day, Israel is still under dependence of other nations. God's promise to Israel is to be the head of all nations (Isaiah 2:2-4).
So, this prophecy by Christ in Matthew chapter 24 is the "Tribulation" Israel will go through under the Gentile nations called the (Times of the Gentiles). And Christ's second coming will (fulfill "The times of the Gentile's) Luke 21:24. In which the resurrection of the dead will be judged (Great white throne Judgment). Matthew has nothing to do with the Church.

It is clear, in All Scripture That there is an ethnic division of the Scriptures, (Make no offense neither to the Jew, nor the Greek (Gentile) nor to The Church of God. (1 Cor. 10:32). Each has it's own identity separate from each other. Christ has called out the Church to be a people of His own...Then He will deal with Israel (that is Scriptural) In Acts chapter 15 at the Council of Jerusalem, The question arose from the Jewish Christians that Gentile converts must follow the customs of the Jew. But the Apostles say "not so". Because the Church is a people of Christ that are His own body, and not subject to Jewish customs and laws. But once His people were all called out (the Church) (completed), then He would save Israel and the residue of men. (Act's 15:13-18). You can not teach your own private interpretation of the Scripture and claim they are by the Spirit of God. Please study the Scriptures before you reply.

Who is Israel?

 

[JLB]

The reason why it shall be the greatest is because of the fact that satan shall be here amongst us,live and in color....

The worst that could happen is death,which Christ told us not to fear.....The trib is all about deception,Satan pretending to be Christ,which could put your very soul at stake

Amen.


But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:13-14

witness Strong's G3142 - martyrion -

testimony

It is from the root word - Strong's G3144 - martys
It means witness as well

a witness

1. in a legal sense
2. an historical sense
   
   1. one who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest
      
3. in an ethical sense
   
   1. those who after his example have proved the strength and genuineness of their faith in Christ by undergoing a violent death
      

JLB

 

[Douglas Summers]

Who is Israel?

Your profile says you are a Christian? Study the OT.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Your profile says you are a Christian? Study the OT.

Check! That question must be answered by the direct local context of the sentence, paragraph, or chapter. But the Christian is generally not Jewish but the man, Israel, and his Child Nation was/is!

 

[smaller]

Who is Israel?

There is a flesh Israel, which is somewhat irrelevant to the Israel of God, and there is spiritual Israel, which is the only Israel God is interested in.

But on a deeper level Israel is a spiritual picture of all mankind.

 

[Randy]

satan is the beast

No satan isn't the beast in rev. The angel of the abyss (currently imprisoned and released at the 5th trump), is the beast. satan gives the beast his throne. They are in the same league with one another and will try to change the judgments (set times) against them as they and their armies (visible and invisible) will take their stand against Jesus. As we believe it will be to no avail as Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and the armies of Heaven follow Him. The beast and his false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire at Jesus's 2nd coming but satan is locked up for a 1000 years so he can't deceive the nations during that time period. Again it is clear that satan and the beast are two different fallen angels.

Randy