Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[Randy]

I'm not going to dignify what you have written since there is no fruit of love in what you have posted nor have you even tried to discuss your views other than criticizing me as someone who would be classified a blasphemer by what you have said. I stand by what I believe and I know if I am wrong then the Holy Spirit will convict me and not you. I feel sad for you Bill that you deem yourself the final authority on the word of God instead of Gods word being the final authority in all things.

rev 11
And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”4 They are “the two olive trees”and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”

Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

But after the three and a half days the breath[b] of life from God entered them,and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.


So who did you state the two witnesses were? They are clearly not Jesus or the Father or the Holy Spirit. It is clear though God is with them and has empowered them to give a final last testimony before the beast is released into the world and causes the great tribulation. (astounding destruction in this world) Gods purpose after the final last warning/testimony has been completed (1260 days) as a loving God warns and warns upfront.


We find that your interpretations are wild (not read in scripture). So it should be no surprise to you we disagree. That is you are mistaken is self evident. Why then do you think God has to tell you you are mistaken before you will accept it? Ask Him them.

Randy

 

[for_his_glory]

rev 11
And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”4 They are “the two olive trees”and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”

Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

But after the three and a half days the breath[b] of life from God entered them,and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.


So who did you state the two witnesses were? They are clearly not Jesus or the Father or the Holy Spirit. It is clear though God is with them and has empowered them to give a final last testimony before the beast is released into the world and causes the great tribulation. (astounding destruction in this world) Gods purpose after the final last warning/testimony has been completed (1260 days) as a loving God warns and warns upfront.


We find that your interpretations are wild (not read in scripture). So it should be no surprise to you we disagree. That is you are mistaken is self evident. Why then do you think God has to tell you you are mistaken before you will accept it? Ask Him them.

Randy

I know many will not agree with what I teach and I have no problem with that. I'm not going to get into the argument game of who is right or who is wrong as this brings no glory to God, but will discuss my beliefs with anyone who wants to discuss this topic as we remain pleasing to the Lord as we share with each other.

I already explained who the two witnesses are that will be preaching the Gospel during the first 3 1/2 years of great tribulation that the world has never seen before nor will ever again.

There are three woes in Revelations as each one is worse than the other. The first one starts with the opening of the seventh seal in Rev 8:1 through Rev 9:12 that include the first five trumpets. The second woe starts in Rev 9:13 with the sixth trumpet and ends in Rev 11:14. The third woe starts with the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 ending in Rev 20:15.

Take notice of what is said in Rev 11:15 that the kingdoms (nations) of this world are become (empahsis on become) the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and He shall reign for ever and ever. This takes place during the seventh trumpet (the third woe) during the last 3 1/2 years of Gods great wrath (tribulation) falling on those who refuse to repent. The first 3 1/2 years are the two woes that entail everything from Rev 8:1 - Rev 11:14. The third woe starts with the war in heaven, Rev 12, where Michael wars against Satan and cast him and his unholy angels out of heaven and into the earth and continues through Rev 19 when Christ returns and destroys the beast and the false prophet casting them into the lake of fire and then binding Satan for a time.

Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are one and three that bear witness in earth as being the Holy Spirit, the word and the blood of Jesus and these three agree in one, 1 John 5:7, 8. Only God can give power to act on His word as the Holy Spirit and Jesus bare witness to Gods power and authority especially through signs and wonders.

God exercises His power and authority through those of His great commission of Matthew 28:18-20 who are sealed by the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 1:22, who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and are called to preach the Gospel. The sackcloth represents the anguish of Gods servants as they remain humbled before the Lord while baring witness to God's wrath being poured out on the unrighteous as these anointed witnesses go forth continuing to preach to the nations until the beast, Rev 13, tries to destroy them.

 

[Douglas Summers]

No satan isn't the beast in rev.

Correct, Satan is not the 1st. beast. Starting with Revelation's chapter 13, The beast coming out of the sea (meaning the mass of mankind upon the earth) is from Daniels fourth beast as described in (Dan. 7:24-26) and (Rev. 17:12) to be ten kings.(of which Satan gives his power to). What is Satan's power? His power is only in the willfulness of man's soul (the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life (1 Jon 2:15-17). Which work in the flesh: adultery fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousy, wrath, factions, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and the such.(Gal.5:19-21). The beast is not a fallen angel. The beast out of the sea is a king (or a kingdom) from one of the Gentile nations with the influence of Satan's authority (again, Satan's authority is to deceive the nations through the fleshy mind of man) And this beast out of mankind will rule over Israel by the Gentile nations (times of the Gentiles) (Luke 12:24). The names of blasphemy are actually established by the 2nd. beast but promoted by the 1st. beast. who, by civil authority takes authority over church worship, demanding!!!! for the world church to ordain homosexual priest, same sex marriage, kill children and to worship other god's. The second beast will be the mystery religion power over the earth called Babylon the mystery religion. The first beast is Babylon, the mystery kingdom or civil Gentile authority. Blasphemy against God from the beast is not so much calling God names, but speaking in place of God, promoting ungodly doctrines of men as if though they are approved of God. That is blaspheming God! .
Note* This prophecy or Revelation of Jesus the Christ is not a spur of the moment tribulation. This was a plan in the mind of Satan beforehand. The reason this is such a great tribulation is because it is greater than any other tribulation before it, or after it. But why? The reason is that the restrainer of complete evil will be taken away, letting pure evil reign with out the prayers and intercessors of the Holy Spirit or (Spirit filled men-the Church) meeting the Lord in the air (rapture). With the Church's (true Church) absence on the earth, evil rules with no interference.

The second beast. The second beast is Babylon the Great mystery religion. Two beast, two Babylon's are subjects to discuss.

 

[n2thelight]

Your profile says you are a Christian? Study the OT.

Im good,my point was to get all others to see,that only Judah returned to the Nation Israel today,along with the bad figs....That's only two tribes,where are the other's?

So maybe you should take your own advice

 

[n2thelight]

There is a flesh Israel, which is somewhat irrelevant to the Israel of God, and there is spiritual Israel, which is the only Israel God is interested in.

But on a deeper level Israel is a spiritual picture of all mankind.

The other 10 tribes dwell in the Christian nations....In other words Jew's are not all that comprise of Israel,they only make up Judah

 

[smaller]

The other 10 tribes dwell in the Christian nations....In other words Jew's are not all that comprise of Israel,they only make up Judah

It's a complex subject.

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly;

 

[Sinthesis]

There are no hidden genetic purebreds out there. God simply doesn't consider yours or anyone's family tree as a condition of salvation.

 

[Randy]

The other 10 tribes dwell in the Christian nations....In other words Jew's are not all that comprise of Israel,they only make up Judah

The descendants of the first believers of Jesus, (children of Abraham, Israelites, Hebrews), if they "remained in the faith" would be known in this day and age as "Christian" as Jesus is called Christ and those who proclaim faith in Him as Lord and Christ have been called Christians for almost 2 millennium.

Paul=>Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham's descendants? So am I.

Currently if one is born from a jewish mother they are seen as "jews". Not quite the same as in the beginning. (1st century)

Randy

 

[Randy]

Correct, Satan is not the 1st. beast. Starting with Revelation's chapter 13, The beast coming out of the sea (meaning the mass of mankind upon the earth) is from Daniels fourth beast as described in (Dan. 7:24-26) and (Rev. 17:12) to be ten kings.(of which Satan gives his power to). What is Satan's power? His power is only in the willfulness of man's soul (the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life (1 Jon 2:15-17). Which work in the flesh: adultery fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousy, wrath, factions, heresies, envying, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and the such.(Gal.5:19-21). The beast is not a fallen angel. The beast out of the sea is a king (or a kingdom) from one of the Gentile nations with the influence of Satan's authority (again, Satan's authority is to deceive the nations through the fleshy mind of man) And this beast out of mankind will rule over Israel by the Gentile nations (times of the Gentiles) (Luke 12:24). The names of blasphemy are actually established by the 2nd. beast but promoted by the 1st. beast. who, by civil authority takes authority over church worship, demanding!!!! for the world church to ordain homosexual priest, same sex marriage, kill children and to worship other god's. The second beast will be the mystery religion power over the earth called Babylon the mystery religion. The first beast is Babylon, the mystery kingdom or civil Gentile authority. Blasphemy against God from the beast is not so much calling God names, but speaking in place of God, promoting ungodly doctrines of men as if though they are approved of God. That is blaspheming God! .
Note* This prophecy or Revelation of Jesus the Christ is not a spur of the moment tribulation. This was a plan in the mind of Satan beforehand. The reason this is such a great tribulation is because it is greater than any other tribulation before it, or after it. But why? The reason is that the restrainer of complete evil will be taken away, letting pure evil reign with out the prayers and intercessors of the Holy Spirit or (Spirit filled men-the Church) meeting the Lord in the air (rapture). With the Church's (true Church) absence on the earth, evil rules with no interference.

The second beast. The second beast is Babylon the Great mystery religion. Two beast, two Babylon's are subjects to discuss.

The angel of the abyss is as called is a angel. He once was and will be again for a short time then will go to his destruction. For 42 months the beast will trample on the world. Causing and being the cause of astounding devastation on this world. God will allow that at the appointed time. After the last warning and testimony has been given. (Rev 11) Many took joy in the murder of those two witnesses and refused to repent. So the end will come. The beast (angel of the abyss-beast out of the sea) has a false prophet who acts in his behalf in regard to mankind. The beast who comes out of the earth. The beast overpowers the two witnesses and is destroyed,( just as Paul also wrote), by the coming of Jesus. Daniel also shows devine power acting at the end. Daniel 12 (at that time). Michael as a angel reports to Jesus who will send out His angels. For as is written "when God brings the firstborn into the world He commands all His angels to bow to Him". (Jesus)

We will agree to disagree. satan is not the beast. satan gives his authority and throne to the beast. And at the end the beast is thrown into the lake of fire at the coming of Jesus and satan is locked up for a 1000 years. Not the same angel (satan and the beast)

Randy

 

[n2thelight]

No satan isn't the beast in rev. The angel of the abyss (currently imprisoned and released at the 5th trump), is the beast. satan gives the beast his throne. They are in the same league with one another and will try to change the judgments (set times) against them as they and their armies (visible and invisible) will take their stand against Jesus. As we believe it will be to no avail as Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and the armies of Heaven follow Him. The beast and his false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire at Jesus's 2nd coming but satan is locked up for a 1000 years so he can't deceive the nations during that time period. Again it is clear that satan and the beast are two different fallen angels.

Randy

The first beast is a system,it will fall apart(deadly wound)satan (2nd beast)comes pretending to be Christ and heals the wound,at which time it shall be a one world religous (Mystery Babylon)system

 

[Douglas Summers]

Im good,my point was to get all others to see,that only Judah returned to the Nation Israel today,along with the bad figs....That's only two tribes,where are the other's?

So maybe you should take your own advice

The answer is in the OT, and the NT (Heb. 8:7-8) (Rev. 7:1-8) (Rom. 11:26-32) (Jer. 30:1-3) (Jer. 3:18) and many more Scriptures.

 

[for_his_glory]

Rev 7:1-4
John is given another vision after these things, meaning after the first six seals that are revealed to him. He now sees four angels standing on the four corners of the earth holding the four winds of the earth in order that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree until Gods servants were sealed.

These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan is not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

Rev 7:5-8
When studying the history of the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob/Israel we find from 1047 B.C. and 931 B.C. the twelve tribes were under the leadership of three Kings, Saul, David and Solomon. Near the end of Solomon's reign he fell into idolatry and God spoke of tearing apart the Kingdom as judgment for these sins, 1 Kings 11:10-12.

After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin (Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God. For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as he turned the northern Kingdom into idol worshippers.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshipping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.

 

[n2thelight]

The answer is in the OT, and the NT (Heb. 8:7-8) (Rev. 7:1-8) (Rom. 11:26-32) (Jer. 30:1-3) (Jer. 3:18) and many more Scriptures.

I already know the answer,just trying to get others to see...Meaning why people only see Jew's as Israel,when they only made up two tribes

 

[reba]

Be careful where this leads ADMIN

 

[smaller]

I already know the answer,just trying to get others to see...Meaning why people only see Jew's as Israel,when they only made up two tribes

That is actually a picture of the Gospel in Christ. Most never see it.

Judah (the Head) and Benjamin (the son of the right hand) were severed from the body. This is also a picture of Israel's rejection of Christ.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I already know the answer,just trying to get others to see...Meaning why people only see Jew's as Israel,when they only made up two tribes

Not sure I understand what you are saying. In Scripture the Nation of Israel (original 12 tribes were Israel). It was only after King Solomon's death, when his son Rehoboam was made king that the 12 tribes separated. King Solomon had put a heavy tax burden on the nation, and when Solomon's son Rehoboam became king, Israel ask him if he would reduce the heavy tax burden. Instead, through the folly of his friends, he instead, tells them he is going to increase taxes. That is where the split in tribes and separate governing came between them. Ten of the 12 tribes departed and became the Northern kingdom with Samaria as the Capitol, whereas the tribes of Judah and Benjamin became the Southern kingdom with Jerusalem as it's capitol During this time, Israel and Judah had wars with each other, worshiped together, and help each other in battles against intruders. Even before King David, and during the judges, the tribes fought with each other. At one time in history of Israel, the other tribes almost destroyed the tribe of Benjamin completely. (2 Chronicles chapters 9 thru 36). But God through the prophets says he will bring them back as one nation.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I already know the answer,just trying to get others to see...Meaning why people only see Jew's as Israel,when they only made up two tribes

To add to post # 1496. The 12 tribes are not lost, Christ knows exactly where they are. In Christ's Revelation to John, Christ anoints 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, and He specifically names them. (Rev. Chapter 7). And the new Jerusalem will have 12 gates representing each Tribe of Israel. (Rev. Chapter 21). There is a warning of ANYONE who adds to or takes away from the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That is a warning to anyone who tries to satisfy there own understanding of things not intended for the IDLE or CURIOUS. This Revelation of Jesus Christ is written to His servants. (Rev. 1:1) What might not be clear to readers now will be understood when all things have come to the end. They will have the book as it is happening.

 

[for_his_glory]

That is actually a picture of the Gospel in Christ. Most never see it.

Judah (the Head) and Benjamin (the son of the right hand) were severed from the body. This is also a picture of Israel's rejection of Christ.

The tribe of Judah and Benjamin were always faithful to God. See my post #1492

 

[for_his_glory]

To add to post # 1496. The 12 tribes are not lost, Christ knows exactly where they are. In Christ's Revelation to John, Christ anoints 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes, and He specifically names them. (Rev. Chapter 7). And the new Jerusalem will have 12 gates representing each Tribe of Israel. (Rev. Chapter 21). There is a warning of ANYONE who adds to or takes away from the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That is a warning to anyone who tries to satisfy there own understanding of things not intended for the IDLE or CURIOUS. This Revelation of Jesus Christ is written to His servants. (Rev. 1:1) What might not be clear to readers now will be understood when all things have come to the end. They will have the book as it is happening.

Who are those servants that Revelation was written for?

 

[Douglas Summers]

Who are those servants that Revelation was written for?

They are His servants. Whom ever He calls. Many of them are described in the Fifth Seal.