Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[dirtfarmer]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The antichrist and all that are deceived by him.
Zechariah 13:8-9 " And it shall come to pass, that all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is fired; they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, it is my people: and they shall say the LORD is my God." This a future event.

Zechariah 14:2-4 " For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of the battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east, and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley, half of the mountain shall remove to the north, and half of it toward the south.

I believe these scriptures to be literally fulfilled and are not allegorical. How, as you say that all this is to happen during the rapture while his vengeance is poured out, can it come to pass.

 

[for_his_glory]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

What does it mean " caught up together them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." If the coming of the Lord to gather his people is in the air, and at the same time the antichrist is destroyed, when will the antichrist set in the temple declaring that he is God?

What does 1 Thessalonians 1:10 mean? " And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." What is the wrath to come? The day of the Lord is spoken about in Joel 1- 2:11

Who is the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians? Which temple of God does he sit in, showing himself to be God? What does it mean " that he might be revealed in his time? Also what or when is his time?

Daniel 7:20-21 " And of the ten horns that were in his head , and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even the horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

Revelation 13:7 " And it was given unto him to make war with the saint, and overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

These verses speak of the Antichrist that will be revealed after the body of believers( the Church) have been "snatched away".

Here is a couple of questions for you to ponder. If the Church is caught up to Jesus before the end time tribulation begins, then what would be the purpose of the beast out of the sea, the beast out of the earth and the mark of the beast in Rev 13? What would be the purpose of the son of perdition being the greatest false prophet of all who will take his seat literally on the very Temple mount of God where His Shekinah glory once filled the Temple there, 2Thessalonians 2:3,4? If we are already caught up to Jesus before a seven year tribulation then why the need for seven years of tribulation as the door of salvation will be closed when we are caught up to meet Jesus in the air?

 

[dirtfarmer]

The focus in Revelations would seem to center around Israel only and the nations that come against her for this is how John would recognize it to be since all other nations were not yet developed in his time. Revelations is about all of us, Jew and Gentile, past, present and future that by faith keep Gods commandments. We are Gods witnesses that testify of His mercy and grace as we take His word out into the world to those who have ears to hear.

The disciples were called first to preach to the Jews, Matthew 10:6, and Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21. God has saved a remnant out of the twelve tribes of Israel even up to a thousand generations that have always been faithful to Him, Exodus 20:1-6; Psalms 105:7, 8, but those who have yet to accept Jesus as Messiah God will continue to cut them off.

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

Romans 8:16-17 " The Spirit witness to our spirit, that we are the children of God. And if Children, then heirs; heirs of God , and joint heirs with Christ, if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Galatians 4:7 " Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then and heir of God through Christ."

Ephesians 3:6 " That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ."

In Revelation 2-3 the seven churches told " to them that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of Life: He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death: To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone with a new name: He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

These are some of the things that were promised to the 7 churches in Revelation. Does that sound like they have been given eternal life and joint heirs with Christ?

 

[dirtfarmer]

No, I am not a preterist nor do I follow their views as they teach a false doctrine. I use to believe in a pretrib rapture many years ago until I started studying Revelations plus all the other scriptures they use for support and never found anything that even remotely said the Church will be caught up to Jesus before the seven year tribulation period. This is why I started this thread to show others that all those pretrib theories are not scriptural, especially Rev chapter 4 where they teach the Church is out of here, but it says nothing about any pretrib rapture. I gave many scriptures in the OP that shows the Church (body of Christ) will still be here until the last day after all of Gods wrath has fallen as then Jesus returns with His army of angels on the last day, John 6:40, as now the marriage supper of the lamb has been made ready and the Bride of Christ will soon be caught up to Him after He cast the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire and then binds Satan for a time, Rev 19, 20.

These pretrib theories started with Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland who first told others of a vision she had in 1830. She admitted the vision seemed evil and dark, but many preachers of that time ran with it and eventually their theories were handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. There were no pretrib teachings before 1830 because it is only a theory and not scriptural.

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

I only see John as the one that the door was open to.

John was an apostle to the circumcision as per Galatian 2 7-9. I see Paul as a teacher of the "snatching up" in Thessalonians.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Here is a couple of questions for you to ponder. If the Church is caught up to Jesus before the end time tribulation begins, then what would be the purpose of the beast out of the sea, the beast out of the earth and the mark of the beast in Rev 13? What would be the purpose of the son of perdition being the greatest false prophet of all who will take his seat literally on the very Temple mount of God where His Shekinah glory once filled the Temple there, 2Thessalonians 2:3,4? If we are already caught up to Jesus before a seven year tribulation then why the need for seven years of tribulation as the door of salvation will be closed when we are caught up to meet Jesus in the air?

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

The purpose of the tribulation is to bring the Jews to faith is Christ as the savior , not just as the messiah.

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The antichrist and all that are deceived by him.
Zechariah 13:8-9 " And it shall come to pass, that all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is fired; they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, it is my people: and they shall say the LORD is my God." This a future event.

Zechariah 14:2-4 " For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of the battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east, and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley, half of the mountain shall remove to the north, and half of it toward the south.

I believe these scriptures to be literally fulfilled and are not allegorical. How, as you say that all this is to happen during the rapture while his vengeance is poured out, can it come to pass.

I take it this is your answer:

The antichrist and all that are deceived by him.

Please explain how the antichrist who is destroyed by the same "coming of the Lord", that resurrects and raptures the Church?

The antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of His Coming.

Please read the words of Paul:

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

This coming of the Lord is when the Resurrection and Rapture take place, by which the antichrist is destroyed.

How can the destroyed antichrist, persecute anyone when he has been destroyed?


JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe these scriptures to be literally fulfilled and are not allegorical. How, as you say that all this is to happen during the rapture while his vengeance is poured out, can it come to pass.

They are indeed literal.

Zechariah shows us the coming of the Lord with His saints, and destroying the wicked, just as Paul describes.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the Lord shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The Lord is one,”
And His name one.
Zechariah 14:1-9

This is the coming of the Lord with His saints.

The next verse's show Him destroying the wicked at His coming.

12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
Zechariah 14:12

The Lord destroys those who persecuted the Jews, at His Coming.

At His coming, the Lord comes with His saints [who have previously died] from heaven at the resurrection/rapture.

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

Just exactly what Paul taught us:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are aliveand remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17


How can the antichrist, who is destroyed at the rapture, persecute any Jews?


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The antichrist and all that are deceived by him.
Zechariah 13:8-9 " And it shall come to pass, that all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is fired; they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, it is my people: and they shall say the LORD is my God." This a future event.

Zechariah 14:2-4 " For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of the battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east, and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley, half of the mountain shall remove to the north, and half of it toward the south.

I believe these scriptures to be literally fulfilled and are not allegorical. How, as you say that all this is to happen during the rapture while his vengeance is poured out, can it come to pass.

I know you were talking to JLB, but felt I needed to also reply.

Zechariah 13:8,9 are past events in the literal of who the two parts of the tribes of Israel were that God had already cut off as they will no longer be His people and remembered no more. If you go back to chapter 12 you will see that chapter12 and 13 are speaking of the physical and Spiritual salvation that comes by faith in Gods free gift of grace. It's prophetic of the new and better covenant of Gods grace in the NT that now covers both Jew and Gentile as the Gentile is grafted into the branch of Israel. The refiners fire is that of God bringing us through all the trials and tribulations that we will go through until the coming of the Lord as He alone purifies us to be called His people.

When you cross reference Zechariah 13:8-9 with Romans Chapter 11 and Rev 7:1-8 this is speaking of God cutting off two parts of Israel which is the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1 Kings12:25-33. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in Rev 7:4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

This is the same with Zechariah 14:2-4 That it was literal in its time of battle in the OT, but also prophetic starting in Rev 19 as there is nowhere in Revelation that says Jesus literally plants His feet on the mount of Olives. In Rev 19 we read how John in his vision saw heaven open and only Jesus with His army of warring angels, not the saints of God, come down from heaven as we the saints of God have only made ourselves ready for the marriage supper of the Lamb, but are not yet caught up to Him in the air. There is no scripture in Rev that says Jesus literally stands on the mount of Olives, but from the air He wars against the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire. It is only after Satan is bound for a time that we are finally caught up to meet Him in the air and will be with Him for eternity.

 

[for_his_glory]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

Romans 8:16-17 " The Spirit witness to our spirit, that we are the children of God. And if Children, then heirs; heirs of God , and joint heirs with Christ, if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Galatians 4:7 " Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then and heir of God through Christ."

Ephesians 3:6 " That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ."

In Revelation 2-3 the seven churches told " to them that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of Life: He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death: To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone with a new name: He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

These are some of the things that were promised to the 7 churches in Revelation. Does that sound like they have been given eternal life and joint heirs with Christ?

Anyone who overcomes this world and abides in faith that is Christ Jesus has the promise of eternal life with Him and will be gathered to Him when He returns.

1John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[JLB]

This is the same with Zechariah 14:2-4 That it was literal in its time of battle in the OT, but also prophetic starting in Rev 19 as there is nowhere in Revelation that says Jesus literally plants His feet on the mount of Olives. In Rev 19 we read how John in his vision saw heaven open and only Jesus with His army of warring angels, not the saints of God, come down from heaven as we the saints of God have only made ourselves ready for the marriage supper of the Lamb, but are not yet caught up to Him in the air. There is no scripture in Rev that says Jesus literally stands on the mount of Olives, but from the air He wars against the beast and false prophet casting them into the lake of fire. It is only after Satan is bound for a time that we are finally caught up to meet Him in the air and will be with Him for eternity.

Zechariah 14 is the theme of Jesus teaching, from the Olivet Discourse, in Matthew 24, and is a reference to the Day of the Lord.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
Zechariah 14:1-7

• The Day of the Lord.
• The lights will diminish.
• The Lord coming with His saints.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27


We see Paul teaching this as well. The Lord coming with His people from heaven, that have previously died and are present with Him in heaven, and return with Him to earth at His coming.

This is the Day of the Lord.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:2


Here Paul shows the saints coming from heaven WITH HIM, on the day of the Lord at the resurrection/rapture.


Revelation 19 shows us the saints coming with Jesus from heaven to earth.

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

This is the saints, clothed in fine linen.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

I only see John as the one that the door was open to.

John was an apostle to the circumcision as per Galatian 2 7-9. I see Paul as a teacher of the "snatching up" in Thessalonians.

Yes, all twelve disciples were called to preach to the Jews, but some also taught the Gentiles like Peter who Paul reprimanded him for he sat with them, but when the other Jews came Peter withdrew himself from them, Galatians 2:11-21. Yes, Paul taught about us being caught up to Christ when He returns, but gives no details that says it is immediately at His coming in the air as in Rev 19 we read the marriage supper of the lamb is only now made ready, but are never mentioned as coming back with Him and His angels as of yet when He does return. We only see Jesus and His army of warring angels coming to destroy the beast and false prophet first and then after binding Satan.

If you study Rev 20 you will see that the beast and false prophet are destroyed and then Satan bound then the first resurrection of those who are asleep in the grave will then be raised and gathered with those who are still alive at Christ coming as being the first resurrection of the saints as we are gathered to Christ and then Satan is loosed to wage war on the saints, but is then cast into the lake of fire.

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

It doesn't bother me if someone other than the one named in the post replies, that is why it is called discussion.

As to your reference to the Gentiles being "grafted into the branch of Israel", that is a misunderstanding of Romans 11. The Gentiles have not replaced Israel, as some believe. God is not finished with Israel. Romans 11:18 states, " Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." The Gentiles, us, were grafted into the root, not a branch. Jesus is the root and we are his body, the bride of Christ.

We read in the old testament that Jehovah has given Israel "a bill of divorcement" but will someday restore Israel as his wife. Christ has not been divorced and is the bridegroom and the body of believers of the church age are espoused to him and will consummate that espousal during the tribulation period and when that period ends will rule and reign with Christ over the earthly kingdom promised to Israel. I know that these statements will cause some to question as to whether I am a believer or not.

I know and understand that in Revelation there is no mention of feet on Mount olives.

 

[for_his_glory]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

The purpose of the tribulation is to bring the Jews to faith is Christ as the savior , not just as the messiah.

In part I agree about those Jews who have yet to repent and turn back to Gods grace, but the full purpose of the greatest tribulation that the world has never seen nor will ever see again, Matthew 24:21, is that of God's longsuffering and patience, 2Peter 3:9,10, coming to an end. During His mighty wrath being poured out into the world He gives everyone a last chance to repent for their will be many, both Jew and Gentile who will finally have ears to hear the Gospel being preached to them by those who are still alive and in Christ as God will place a greater anointing on those He calls to preach. The preaching of the Gospel does not end until the door of Salvation is closed forever on the last day when Christ returns for His Bride, John 6:40.

 

[for_his_glory]

Zechariah 14 is the theme of Jesus teaching, from the Olivet Discourse, in Matthew 24, and is a reference to the Day of the Lord.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the Lord—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
Zechariah 14:1-7

• The Day of the Lord.
• The lights will diminish.
• The Lord coming with His saints.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27


We see Paul teaching this as well. The Lord coming with His people from heaven, that have previously died and are present with Him in heaven, and return with Him to earth at His coming.

This is the Day of the Lord.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:2


Here Paul shows the saints coming from heaven WITH HIM, on the day of the Lord at the resurrection/rapture.


Revelation 19 shows us the saints coming with Jesus from heaven to earth.

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

This is the saints, clothed in fine linen.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.



JLB

I can't see the armies that come back with Jesus in Rev 19:14 being anything other than warring angels that come from heaven with Him. By reading John 3:13 there has never been anyone other than Jesus who ascended up to heaven. The only thing that goes back to God when we physically die is the very breath God breathed in us. God breathed life (spirit) into us, Genesis 2:7, that made us a living soul and what goes back to God when this physical body dies (returns to the dust of the ground) is that very spirit of life God gave us, Ecclesiastics 12:7. Only those of faith under the old covenant (OT) and those of faith under the new covenant through Christ Jesus (NT) will God take that spirit back and reserve it until Christ returns.

Jesus already said He will return on the last day, John 6:40, and Matthew 24:29-31 shows us when His return will be (not the actual day, Matthew 24:36) and when the gathering of the saints both asleep in the grave and those who are still alive at His coming will be gathered to Him. Rev 19 talks about the marriage supper of the Lamb, but yet never mentions that we are gathered up to Him at that particular moment of His return. Rev 20 does show us that we are resurrected or caught up to Jesus after Satan is bound and then we are with the Lord Forever.

 

[for_his_glory]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

It doesn't bother me if someone other than the one named in the post replies, that is why it is called discussion.

As to your reference to the Gentiles being "grafted into the branch of Israel", that is a misunderstanding of Romans 11. The Gentiles have not replaced Israel, as some believe. God is not finished with Israel. Romans 11:18 states, " Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee." The Gentiles, us, were grafted into the root, not a branch. Jesus is the root and we are his body, the bride of Christ.

We read in the old testament that Jehovah has given Israel "a bill of divorcement" but will someday restore Israel as his wife. Christ has not been divorced and is the bridegroom and the body of believers of the church age are espoused to him and will consummate that espousal during the tribulation period and when that period ends will rule and reign with Christ over the earthly kingdom promised to Israel. I know that these statements will cause some to question as to whether I am a believer or not.

I know and understand that in Revelation there is no mention of feet on Mount olives.

I never said the Gentiles replaced Israel. The Gentile is grafted into the branches (Israel) with the root (Jesus) that feeds all the branches. Israel is the natural branch as the Gentile is grafted into that branch that makes both Jew and Gentile one body in Christ under a new and better covenant of Gods grace.

 

[JLB]

I can't see the armies that come back with Jesus in Rev 19:14 being anything other than warring angels that come from heaven with Him.

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

This is the saints, clothed in fine linen.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

It's kind of hard to dispute what the scripture plainly says.

The saints are coming with the Lord from heaven to earth.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

and again

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, Jude 1:14

and again

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

and again

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27


I hope you can see from these scriptures that the saints who are in heaven will come with Jesus when He returns to earth.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

How do you understand Romans 11:25, " For I would not, brethren, have you to be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in"

Luke 21:24 " And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

Romans 11:11 " I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid; but rather through their fall, salvation is come unto the Gentiles , for to provoke them to jealousy."

God's plan for the Gentiles is to use them to provoke Israel to jealousy. So the fullness of the Gentiles will be when the Church is raptured out and God has no further plans for using Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy. They will look upon him,

Revelation chapter 4- 20:6 is Christ opening up the title deed to world, which is rightfully his. Satan, in the garden of Eden, stole if from the first Adam and now the last Adam is redeeming it in Revelation.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I never said the Gentiles replaced Israel. The Gentile is grafted into the branches (Israel) with the root (Jesus) that feeds all the branches. Israel is the natural branch as the Gentile is grafted into that branch that makes both Jew and Gentile one body in Christ under a new and better covenant of Gods grace.

hello for_his_glory, dirtfarmer here

I may seem to be an ultra-literalist, but the Gentiles are grafted into the root, not into the branch or a branch of Israel. In verse 17 of Romans 11 it states; " and if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree." This tells me that the Jews, all of them, are God's covenant people.

 

[JLB]

God's plan for the Gentiles is to use them to provoke Israel to jealousy. So the fullness of the Gentiles will be when the Church is raptured out and God has no further plans for using Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy.

The resurrection and rapture happens at the coming of the Lord.

At the coming of the Lord, all the tribes of the earth will look upon Him and mourn.

At the coming of the Lord, all His people will be caught together, to meet Him.

All the rest will be destroyed.


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

The resurrection and rapture happens at the coming of the Lord.

At the coming of the Lord, all the tribes of the earth will look upon Him and mourn.

At the coming of the Lord, all His people will be caught together, to meet Him.

All the rest will be destroyed.


JLB

How do you interpret Revelation 20:5- 7" But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished, this is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison."