Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[JLB]

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:

I the Lord do all these things.

Who made the devil to be a sinner?

Are you saying God made the devil to be a sinner?


JLB

 

[smaller]

Who made the devil to be a sinner?

Are you saying God made the devil to be a sinner?

JLB

Maybe it's more appropriate to ask you if there are multiple creators? i.e. POLY THEISM.

 

[JLB]

Who made the devil to be a sinner?

Are you saying God made the devil to be a sinner?


JLB

Who made the devil to be a sinner?

Are you saying God made the devil to be a sinner?


JLB

 

[smaller]

Who made the devil to be a sinner?

Are you saying God made the devil to be a sinner?

JLB

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

There are no exceptions.

 

[JLB]

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

There are no exceptions.

We all know that all things were created by God.

The question that you are to embarrassed to answer is:

Who made the devil to be a sinner?

We know that God created Michael, and Gabriel and Lucifer.

These are angels.

Lucifer was the one who wanted to sit on God's throne and be as God.

God didn't make him desire that.

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Isaiah 14:12-15


He who sins is of the devil... 1 John 3:8



JLB

 

[smaller]

We all know that all things were created by God.

That should answer the question then.

The question that you are to embarrassed to answer is:

Who made the devil to be a sinner?

God made all things. There are no exceptions.

We know that God created Michael, and Gabriel and Lucifer.

These are angels.

God created all things. There are no exceptions.

Lucifer was the one who wanted to sit on God's throne and be as God.

God created all things. There are no exceptions.

God didn't make him desire that.

God created all things. There are no exceptions.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[JLB]

That should answer the question then.

Lucifer was created as an angel of God, just like Gabriel.

Lucifer wanted to be as God and worshipped.

Gabriel is still an angel of God.

Lucifer is now the enemy of God.

Lucifer was in heaven and was thrown out, Gabriel was not.

God didn't make Satan sin.

That's false doctrine and heresy.


JLB

 

[JLB]

God created all things. There are no exceptions.

You can keep repeating what we all agree on, that God created powers and principalities.

That's not the argument.

You claim that God made Satan to sin.

That's false.

Lucifer fell when he desired to exalt himself to the throne of God.

He then became God's enemy which is why he is named Satan now.

God created Lucifer.

Lucifer became Satan because he sinned.

Just as God created Adam sinless.

Adam was removed from the Garden because he sinned.

God didn't make Adam to sin.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Lucifer was created as an angel of God, just like Gabriel.

There is zero scriptural evidence that Lucifer or Satan or the devil or the great dragon or the behemoth or the leviathan or any other term of symbolism is applied to that "entity" and it's class were EVER HOLY. It is a "freewill" fairy tale that doesn't exist in the scriptures. God Himself separated "Light from Darkness" from the very beginning. But they are both alike to Him.

Psalm 139:12
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Lucifer wanted to be as God and worshipped. Gabriel is still an angel of God.
Lucifer is now the enemy of God.

IF God Himself didn't create "enemies" they wouldn't exist. IF God wanted those enemies gone, they'd be gone.

Lucifer was in heaven and was thrown out, Gabriel was not. God didn't make Satan sin.
That's false doctrine and heresy.

Insulating God from anything, any power, any working in His Own creation will never compute. God Is Directly Involved and Implicated in ALL things. There is no avoiding this logic if one adhere's to A Divine Creator.

Whatever IS, whatever that is, exists solely and ONLY, because of Him.

 

[JLB]

There is zero scriptural evidence that Lucifer or Satan or the devil or the great dragon or the behemoth or the leviathan or any other term of symbolism is applied to that "entity" and it's class were EVER HOLY. It is a "freewill" fairy tale that doesn't exist in the scriptures. God Himself separated "Light from Darkness" from the very beginning. But they are both alike to Him.

Psalm 139:12
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.


IF God Himself didn't create "enemies" they wouldn't exist. IF God wanted those enemies gone, they'd be gone.


Insulating God from anything, any power, any working in His Own creation will never compute. God Is Directly Involved and Implicated in ALL things. There is no avoiding this logic if one adhere's to A Divine Creator.

Whatever IS, whatever that is, exists solely and ONLY, because of Him.

You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:14-15


JLB

 

[smaller]

You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.15 You were perfect
in your ways
from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:14-15

JLB

I don't have any doubt that God created a PERFECT DEVIL, PERFECTLY DEVILISH in all his ways. I don't see anything perfect or "HOLY" as in God Perfect or Holy in that creation whatsoever.

A lot of people conjure up all kinds of notions about angels or giants or nephelim or seraphim and this or that. Most of it is their own fairy tale being reflected.

What I do know is what the scriptures tell us. That God created the "covering cherub" and that upon completion of use that "covering cherub" will be destroyed.

Ezekiel 28:16
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

And this is exactly what "end time" is about.

 

[for_his_glory]

The reasons for not noting Dan and Ephraim are not limited to what you propose. There are other sights to be had. For example, Dan, meaning "a judge." For those sealed, the judge and judgment has passed from them and is no longer needed. Ephraim, meaning "God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction," (Gen. 41:52) affliction is also passed from those sealed. There is also an immense amount of significance in these two tribes coming from the "bowels" of Joseph, one blessed above the other, Ephraim over Manasseh, by Jacob, "wittingly." In that action of Joseph it was essentially a repeat of what Jacob himself went through, coming before Isaac, his own "elder brother" getting a later blessing and Jacob stealing his from his elder "twin." I could write on this subject for a long long time. Even from Abraham's bosom came two similar children, the younger blessed, the elder, not. There are deeper meanings behind these matters. Much deeper.

Understanding that these can be long conversations of various observations, and such scriptural constructs, movements, directives, actions with the tribes and it's various members/components are all quite entirely interesting. It is even more interesting when studying the various movements and placements of the tribes in the O.T. Who was left on the wilderness side of the Jordan and who crossed over, the tribes of Joseph's sons being split to one side and the other, etc etc.

I find these matters greatly interesting and showing much more interesting things than just what you proposed above. It's not that simple.

Their names might have those meanings, but what you are missing is they were Gods elect in the beginning until they fell to Judaism for which they never repented of. That is why their names are not listed in Rev 7. Their fate has been sealed to that of the lake of fire. A dead unrepented man can not return back to God once they lay in the ground.

 

[smaller]

Their names might have those meanings, but what you are missing is they were Gods elect

I would certainly term the devil and his messengers as Gods elect, elected to go to the eternal flames.

Your notions that Satan is Gods son and the brother of Jesus is not taught in the scriptures, anywhere. (sorry, thought this was to JLB, not you unless it applies?)

There are Holy messengers and there are Evil messengers. They are not the same, never were the same and were "created" for entirely opposing purposes, the later specifically to be used and eventually destroyed.

in the beginning until they fell to Judaism for which they never repented of. That is why their names are not listed in Rev 7. Their fate has been sealed to that of the lake of fire. A dead unrepented man can not return back to God once they lay in the ground.

I have no idea where you came up with that one quite frankly. Lord only knows what gets into people's heads on these subjects.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

 

[JLB]

I don't have any doubt that God created a PERFECT DEVIL, PERFECTLY DEVILISH in all his ways. I don't see anything perfect or "HOLY" as in God Perfect or Holy in that creation whatsoever.

Pure Heresy.

God didn't create Satan.

Lucifer who was created perfect in all of his ways, UNTIL iniquity was found in him.

Lucifer became Satan.

You twist the scriptures in your posts and misteprent God, His Word, and His Kingdom.



You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:14-15


JLB

 

[smaller]

Pure Heresy.

God didn't create Satan.

And I consider any notions of "multiple creators" to be polytheism.

 

[for_his_glory]

smaller what does your post #1569 have to do with the timing of when God takes away their sin. God only takes away our sin when we repent of it, nothing more, nothing less as we come to Him by faith in that of Christ Jesus who is our deliverer redeemer.

 

[smaller]

smaller what does your post #1569 have to do with the timing of when God takes away their sin.

Were we still remaining here on earth, in flesh, our sin will be taken away in like manner to they, exactly how Phil. 3:21 shows us. Matt. 25 shows the same things.

Here is what is going to happen at "the end" of this wicked/evil age:

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

This is the cleansing of the temple, our bodies. From our current VILE state, CHANGED by His Sole Power, into His Perfect Body.

This is "our" HOPE of the Gospel.

God has also fully informed us of His Plan and His Intentions:

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

God only takes away our sin when we repent of it, nothing more, nothing less as we come to Him by faith in that of Christ Jesus who is our deliverer redeemer.

God is NOT counting sins against us. 2 Cor. 5:19

This does NOT mean they won't be counted.

 

[for_his_glory]

It should be openly apparent to you by now that it is our call to condemn the powers of darkness. That is the power of the devil and his minions who do operate on/in the earth.

Just because "some" choose not to see it doesn't mean it's not a reality.


The devil was made to be a sinner, from his beginning. John 8:44. And yes, the devil IS involved with every sin of man, even in THOUGHT form. The adversary, that power of darkness, does work IN MAN and does work even in the minds of believers. Like it or not it is a hard fact of scripture.

Ezekiel 28:14 and Isaiah 14:12-15 beg to differ as who we call Satan was created as an anoitned cherub n the beginning.

 

[smaller]

Ezekiel 28:14 and Isaiah 14:12-15 beg to differ as who we call Satan was created as an anoitned cherub n the beginning.

IF you want to call anointed to be evil and have evil power and a wicked evil domain, then I'll concede to that anointing. It was no "HOLY" anointing, but an evil anointing.

God Himself created all things including 'all' powers. This would include these powers and these authorities:

Ephesians 6:
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

None of these 'created' themselves. Mankind and this present creation have been quite Divinely Purposefully PUT UNDER the above and this includes being put UNDER the power of death.

1 Corinthians 3:22
Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

Here is what happens at thee end:

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

It is very likely we won't even remember any of it. The Glory of God Himself will wipe ALL of what we are currently, utterly away, and we will be joined into His Perfection.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

[for_his_glory]

Were we still remaining here on earth, in flesh, our sin will be taken away in like manner to they, exactly how Phil. 3:21 shows us. Matt. 25 shows the same things.

Here is what is going to happen at "the end" of this wicked/evil age:

Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

This is the cleansing of the temple, our bodies. From our current VILE state, CHANGED by His Sole Power, into His Perfect Body.

This is "our" HOPE of the Gospel.

God has also fully informed us of His Plan and His Intentions:

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.



God is NOT counting sins against us. 2 Cor. 5:19

This does NOT mean they won't be counted.

smaller, I can only pray that your eyes will be opened someday to know that we already have victory over this flesh as we no longer walk in the darkness of this flesh and mind the things of this wicked world as now we walk in the light of the Holy Spirit as we by faith in Christ Jesus have risen with Him already the day we were Spiritually born again and seek those things from above where Christ sits at the right hand of God as our mediator before Him. If you do not know how to crucify this flesh and no longer walk according to it I will suggest you read Colossians 3:1-17.