Reasons Why Water Baptism is not for today

[duval]

IMAGICAN--To answer your hypothetical question about the man in the desert YES it is possible, NO it is NOT probable. Yet even if it happened, does God ever demand of man what he cannot do? Judgment is God's alone.

But you, nor anyone else we know are not in the focus of your hypothethical question. You have access freely to God's word, yet have not obeyed what clearly applies to you and to us all. I can't understand why so many claim to love Jesus yet refuse to obey him, Jn.14:15. Why do you argue with God? Why do you seek loopholes?

You seem to think baptism is a work of man and therefore seemingly unnecessary. You seem to think its all by faith alone. Have you ever read Jn.6:29? Yes, faith, belief IS a WORK. It's a WORK of God, yet we must do the believing. So it is with repentance, confessing Christ and baptism OR any thing God asks or demands of us. Anything God tells us to DO is not a work of human righteousness but a work of God. Think hard on Jn.6:29.

Furthermore, study Lk.17:10 and its context. When we have done ALL we are asked to do, when we have done to our VERY BEST, we still have nothing to glory in, we have only done our duty.

Will someone please tell me what is wrong with doing WHAT God says in the WAY God says do it and FOR the reason God says DO IT!!!

 

[Tomlane]

Duval,

You seem to think baptism is a work of man and therefore seemingly unnecessary. You seem to think its all by faith alone. Have you ever read Jn.6:29? Yes, faith, belief IS a WORK. It's a WORK of God, yet we must do the believing. So it is with repentance, confessing Christ
and baptism OR any thing God asks or demands of us. Anything God tells us to DO is not a work of human righteousness but a work of God. Think hard on Jn.6:29.

The answer why faith alone works is because the answer comes from rightly dividing God's word. God had John water baptizes Jews for repentance because John was preparing for one coming who was their Messiah and was fortold before it happened. What has that do with salvation or the fruits of salvation when the fruit for salvation are listed in Galatians 5.

Galatians 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23  Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Please notice no Law. So no good works.

1 John 3:23  ¶And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

The two above verses give the commandments that God gives us for salvation. One is we believe on the name of Christ and the second one is we love another. The it goes on to say if we keep these commandments the Lord abides in us by the spirit He gave us. Please notice the word gave. You can't have something given to you if you work for it. Not once is any of Christ's commandments for salvation; does it mention water baptism or any other kind of work that a man can perform for salvation. Believing God and then loving one another is not works of any kind. Accepting God's reality is not works but a labor of love and works performed by God alone.

It is wrongly dividing God's word to think water baptism, even symbolically or that it is necessary has the same mentality as building an ark because God told Noah to build one or because God Commanded John to prepare for one coming with water baptism for repentance.

Tomlane

 

[Imagican]

Duval,

I don't believe it's so much us refusing to follow God's Word as it is a matter of discernment.

I do NOT believe MUCH of what the 'churches' teach. I HAVE read The Word and studied it quite extensively. But the conclusions that have been revealed are NOT always what the churches 'choose to believe'.

God KNOWS what's in our hearts. If He has NOT revealed to ME that I MUST BE Baptized in water, then how are YOU or anyone else going to believe that you can convince me otherwise. REGARDLESS of 'how many' people believe something, that doesn't make it 'right'. God does not work on democracy, (majority rule), for we KNOW that the 'world is LOST' and there are MANY more 'in the world' than there are following His will.

The churches seem to believe that it's a matter of OUTWARD signs that make the difference in who is and who isn't saved. I KNOW better. For God is NOT of 'the flesh', He IS Spirit. And it's ONLY through our acceptance of this Spirit that we are able to come to ANY truth that MATTERS. Not through bowing to men or placing money in their 'fancy plates'. It is through an acceptance of God and His Son that we are able to be transformed into that which HE desires for us.

No amount of 'eating crackers' or 'washing in water' is able to DO ANYTHING other than what the Jews themselves did. For the 'law' was sent to TEACH them. And what did they DO? They simply became FOLLOWERS of the 'law' instead of learning what it was meant to TEACH.

We find ourselves in practically the SAME situation today. While PREACHING that we are FREE from the 'law', the church STILL teach it and 'pick and choose' that which they are bound to and that which they are NOT.

I have simply chosen to follow where I am LED regardless of what 'men' would have me believe. And just like "rats on a sinking ship", those of the churches seem bound and determined to walk right up the backs of those that are unwilling to follow THEIR directions. Choosing to label them and accuse them instead. And the funny part: it's as if they believe their words are more important than what they offer. For Christ came for ONE purpose. And that purpose seems to be utterly LOST on MOST of the churches. For it is NOT 'us and them', my friend, we are ALL brothers and sisters. There is NOT ONE that is greater or lesser than another. And instead of condemnation, it would seem that IF those of the churches actually UNDERSTOOD what has been offered, then words such as mine would be UNMISTAKABLE.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Rayden]

First of all water baptism is a Jewish, ceremonial baptism of repentance.
Tomlane

Some orgins are not the same as todays beliefs. Christmas for example:

The ancient European civilizations held winter celebrations for the solstice (the shortest day of the year) in order to remind themselves that warmer, more fertile weather would be coming soon. The most important of these was celebrated by the ancient Romans. In the winter, from the middle of December to January first, the Roman's held a celebration for the god Saturn in a festival called Saturnalia. During Saturnalia, the Romans would dress up in costume and parade in the streets, have large feasts, visit with friends and family, and exchange good-luck gifts called Strenae (lucky fruits). The Romans would also decorate their halls with garlands of laurel, and light up green trees with candles.

However, when the Christian religion began to spread throughout Rome, the Christians became angered by the Saturnalia celebration. The god Saturn, celebrated in Saturnalia, was one of many Roman gods, but the Christians believed that there was only one God. Because Saturnalia celebrated a different type of religion than Christianity, the Christians declared that it was wrong. And, the Christians celebrated their own holiday, Christmas, during the same time of year as Saturnalia. The Christians wanted Christmas to be a sacred religious holiday, and felt that Saturnalia interfered with the seriousness of Christmas. Therefore, the Christians decided to ban Saturnalia. But, the Romans refused to stop celebrating Saturnalia, and so the Christians decided that they would have to compromise. Therefore Christmas and Saturnalia were combined together into one holiday; the Christians took the lights, decorations, and gifts from Saturnalia and made them a part of Christmas.

As to stay on subject. As far as getting baptized goes, Christian meaning Christ like, or persuing the likeness of Christ, means as a Christian I felt conviction to become baptised like Christ. Not only to be like Him but also to show others in public display, I am dying to myself so that I may rise from the water a new being in Christ.

From the mouth of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 28:19-20
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Mark 1:9
9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Acts 2:41
41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

And not saying anything about any of the other post, but the Bible was written by many people but they were only the scribes, Jesus Christ was the true author of this book and breathed every letter. Focus shouldnt get put on the writers but more on the Author. As far as the water aspect, all throughout the Bible, people were baptized in water. Whether fully immersed or not. Now I suppose it may just be the ACT of baptism and if you would like, you could probably get baptised in mud to be more symbolic of dying and being born again, but I dont think thats needed. :D

 

[duval]

TOLM LANE wrote:"The answer why FAITH ALONE (Emp.mine, duval) works is because the answer comes from rightly dividing God's Word."

Tom the ONLY time the words "faith only" or "faith alone" occur in all your bible is in Jas.2:24. Please note there it reads ''YE SEE THEN HKOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY." james said "see". Do you SEE that Tom?? And, of course we are to rightly divide the word, IITim.2:15.

 

[duval]

IMAGICAN wrote: "I do NOT believe MUCH of what churches teach."

Neither do I. Its what the Bible teaches not churches.

And, neither do I believe in being subjective as you apparently do. Its not what I or you believe about anything, its what the Bible teaches and God only teaches His will through His Word, the Bible not what you THINK he has said.

 

[Tomlane]

Duval,

Tom the ONLY time the words "faith only" or "faith alone" occur in all your bible is in Jas.2:24. Please note there it reads ''YE SEE THEN HKOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY." james said "see". Do you SEE that Tom?? And, of course we are to rightly divide the word, IITim.2:15.
TOLM LANE wrote:"The answer why FAITH ALONE (Emp.mine, duval) works is because the answer comes from rightly dividing God's Word."

Tom the ONLY time the words "faith only" or "faith alone" occur in all your bible is in Jas.2:24. Please note there it reads ''YE SEE THEN HKOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY." james said "see". Do you SEE that Tom?? And, of course we are to rightly divide the word, IITim.2:15.

I did give you the commands and you either didn't read them or you ignored them. They are worth repeating so here again are the commands for salvation.

1 John 3:23 ¶And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

The two above verses give the commandments that God gives us for salvation. One is we believe on the name of Christ and the second one is we love another. The it goes on to say if we keep these commandments the Lord abides in us by the spirit He gave us. Please notice the word gave. You can't have something given to you if you work for it. Not once is any of Christ's commandments for salvation; does it mention water baptism or any other kind of work that a man can perform for salvation. Believing God and then loving one another is not works of any kind. Accepting God's reality is not works but a labor of love
and works performed by God alone.

 

[stovebolts]

Tom,

I thought that you were done with this discussion and acknowledged that Water Baptism has never ceased to be a viable and normative means for one entering into the Church.

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=35058

 

[duval]

TOM LANE your quotes are from I Jn. Do you not know John was writing to those who were already Christians? It DOES make a difference if you "rightly divide the word of truth''. Try again!

 

[Tomlane]

Duval, Not only was the 1John written to believers, its also a beacon to a broken and contrite heart for anyone who wants to believe upon the Lord for salvation.

Duval, you would do well to remember this verse and it has nothing to do with water.

Psalms 51:17  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Hebrews 10:22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Revelation 22:1  ¶And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The pure waters that has our hearts sprinkled from an eveil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water is Jesus Christ as He is a river of pure water as described in Rev. 22.1.
Don't forget it says in Heb.10:22 that we draw near with true heart in full assurance of faith. Why can't you see everything about faith is done by Jesus Christ and we only attain it all by faith?

1 John 4:5  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1 John 4:6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Tomlane

 

[duval]

Hi TOMLANE

The reason baptism is not mentioned is because (as I already pointed out) John in IJn. was writing to Christians, those who were already baptized. Rightly divide, please. Oh, incidently Tom I Jn.5:8 does have WATER!

 

[mutzrein]

Hey Duval and Mutz,

Really quick, and I probably won't be back until Monday, but.

Do you believe there is a difference between being Justified by Faith and Saved by baptism? I know that this isn't the thread, but it seems like in your posts that salvation and justification are being used synonymously.

Cheers,

Hi StoveBolts

I don't see them as being synonymous. Water baptism is not necessary for salvation. Faith is.

Hope the weekend is going / went well.
Blessings

Hey Mutz,
Well, I had a chance to sneak on this am. :D

Anyway, I think you misunderstood my question.
You see, your trying to draw a line in the sand, and that's dangerous.
We are justified by faith. What does this mean to you? I'd really like to know.
Baptism now saves. What does that mean to you as well?

How can we be justified by faith, yet saved through baptism? Well, if you look at saved as a one time event, then what your actually talking about is justification, not salvation.

Simply put, we are justified by faith, which is to say come judgment day, we are justified in God's presence, but faith is also the instrument God uses to bring about salvation, not only salvation for you, but those around you, here, today, now.

Being saved is holistic where the operative is the word "Being". Being saved, isn't about what happens come the day of judgment, again, that's justification. Being saved is about transformation, here, now. God wants to 'save' everything about you, here, now, tomorrow and the next day and the next throughout eternity.

Through faith (not by faith, but by Grace), Baptism serves this function, and when we start drawing lines in the sand interchanging justification with salvation then baptism starts to look like man's work, instead of God's work.

Grace and peace.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff - I'm not really intending to put a line in the sand and neither am I looking to debate semantics.

Now some people would say I am saved, but I don't. I consider myself as 'being' saved - an ongoing process of maturing and perfecting. Of course there are those who equate the word saved with being born again. I don't, but I am born again.

I have also been baptised in water however I don't consider that my baptism had anything to do with being born again. I undertook it believing it to be an act of obedience to Christ, signifying death to the flesh and new life in Him.

Blessings

 

[Imagican]

How about this:

Matthew 22:

34But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.

35Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Here we see nothing pertaining to 'water Baptism'. While some would offer it is paramount to Salvation, here we have Christ Himself offering that it CERTAINLY NOT the 'most important' of commandments.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks Jeff - I'm not really intending to put a line in the sand and neither am I looking to debate semantics.

Now some people would say I am saved, but I don't. I consider myself as 'being' saved - an ongoing process of maturing and perfecting. Of course there are those who equate the word saved with being born again. I don't, but I am born again.

I have also been baptised in water however I don't consider that my baptism had anything to do with being born again. I undertook it believing it to be an act of obedience to Christ, signifying death to the flesh and new life in Him.

Blessings

Thanks for the clarification Mutz!

I think were tracking down the same line Mutz, which is why I believe that baptism is part of our salvation. What you have written above about baptism is true, yet it is so much more, including a covenant commitment, similar to Israel when they agreed to the covenant at Mt. Sinai.

As far as being born again and John 3, it might be interesting to note that Jesus is talking about being able to see the kingdom of God, here, now. Remember, Jesus is King of kings, Lord of lords.

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

I hope I may join the discussion at this stage.

I am baptised; dipped under. I believed it was an act of faith. Now I know it was an act of conforming. I now despise the fact I was baptised in and with water. Jesus never expected it of me.
Jesus expected the apostles to baptise others. After the apostles and their age and dispensation - the beginnings of the Church of Christ, baptism with or in water stopped. He who still baptises with water, assumes the authority of the apostles.

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Stove Bolts:
"What you have written above about baptism is true, yet it is so much more, including a covenant commitment, similar to Israel when they agreed to the covenant at Mt. Sinai."

GE:
Israel gave us the perfect example of the covenant of works; it fails every time because it is doomed to failure from its nature, which is like the sinfulness of those who close covenant with God from their side, instead of just see God close Covenant through Christ on our behalf, for us. "All of Grace". Or nothing but human messing up.

 

[Imagican]

I hope I may join the discussion at this stage.

I am baptised; dipped under. I believed it was an act of faith. Now I know it was an act of conforming. I now despise the fact I was baptised in and with water. Jesus never expected it of me.
Jesus expected the apostles to baptise others. After the apostles and their age and dispensation - the beginnings of the Church of Christ, baptism with or in water stopped. He who still baptises with water, assumes the authority of the apostles.

Now here is an wise and astute offering.

While I wouln't 'despise' an act that I have done out of 'ignorance', that he is ABLE to SEE that what he was TRULY doing was 'being Baptized into a PARTICULAR GROUP, or 'church', shows that ONCE he was able to come to the truth, it became apparent that NO amount of 'ritual' was able to DO anything FOR him.

The apostolic era is OVER other than the records that we have of their writtings. That SOME still believe and TEACH apostleship is without doubt, but IMHO, 'false teaching'.

The 'truth' of what I offer is that I have witnessed OVER AND OVER again those that bounce from 'one church' to another have a tendency to be Baptized over and over. If the 'water Baptism' that is so defended in this discussion was simply a MEANS of one being able to ENTER 'the body of Christ'; The Church, then there would be NO CONFUSION once one was Baptized in water. They would then KNOW that they were 'saved' and have no further NEED for 'water'.

We have a NUMBER of 'different camps' arguing this issue. One believes that ONLY through 'their church' are they able to 'follow Christ'. Another seems to believe that 'works' are still a valid means of obtaining 'forgiveness'. And then there are those that recognize without confusion that it is NOT up to US to 'save ourselves', it is an event that WE are UNABLE to 'create' through ANY ritual or ACT.

Faith is NOT something that we can DO. We ALL have faith in SOMETHING. Whether it be ourselves, money, others, or a 'religion', ALL have faith. So it is NOT something that we 'create', it is mearly something that is INHERENT. How we come to 'faith' in the TRUTH? That's the 'good one'. I believe that it's through a 'seeking'. While some would argue this in favor of predestiny, I believe that we are ALL given the MEANS to seek even if some choose NOT TO.

Once one's heart is TRULY open to the truth, then and ONLY then is God ABLE to plant the seeds that are able to GROW into it.

But regardless, it is NOT a 'physical ACT' that is able to BRING us to God, (possible but not likely), but the ability of our heart to accept Him.

Believing that 'water Baptism' is ABLE to 'save' is like believing that WE, on our OWN' are able to transform OURSELVES into that which is PLEASING to God. And that, my friends, is an IMPOSSIBILITY. Only in the minds and hearts of those that follow 'something else' is this even concievable.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

Stove Bolts:
"What you have written above about baptism is true, yet it is so much more, including a covenant commitment, similar to Israel when they agreed to the covenant at Mt. Sinai."

GE:
Israel gave us the perfect example of the covenant of works; it fails every time because it is doomed to failure from its nature, which is like the sinfulness of those who close covenant with God from their side, instead of just see God close Covenant through Christ on our behalf, for us. "All of Grace". Or nothing but human messing up.

I believe you missed a word in my sentence. ;)

The purpose of the law was to bring life. (Deut 30, emphasis on vs. 14), and Jesus was a fulfillment of the law. (Mt. 5) [Romans 6]

 

[stovebolts]

The 'truth' of what I offer is that I have witnessed OVER AND OVER again those that bounce from 'one church' to another have a tendency to be Baptized over and over. If the 'water Baptism' that is so defended in this discussion was simply a MEANS of one being able to ENTER 'the body of Christ'; The Church, then there would be NO CONFUSION once one was Baptized in water. They would then KNOW that they were 'saved' and have no further NEED for 'water'.

Here in lies a major problem concerning a particular view on baptism now doesn't it? Why is it that so many churches insist on new members being baptized into their church when there are so many other churches that honor water baptism from outside their church. (don't answer, it's a rhetorical question).

Is it possible that there is a difference between church and Church?... I believe 1 Corinthians 1 can answer this dilemma in regard to baptism.

What your addressing Mec isn't the issue of Baptism, but rather how Baptism has been used as a leveraging device within the Church, to define, and further mark out the church... Do we now throw away the baby with the bathwater per se?

 

[Cornelius]

People can run around, get baptized in water, or "despise" it as some on this forum .......

but

If you do not realize that
1) Water = Word

Then you have no idea about baptism anyway. Then you just got wet , like having a bath.

Baptism is the outward statement that we are going to be "washed"by the Word. Our old man (self) gets to be killed by the Word and gets buried under it. But we also rise again into our new life (Christ) So just as we "go under" the water, so our old man gets to "go under" the Word and repent.

The Word (water) is also a Sword, and that too KILLS the old nature.

People who say its not for today, have no understanding of what it means. They are only talking about a ritual, but that does not make any sense to them. They truly do not understand the meaning of it.

Baptism , without the submission to the Word, is worthless.

Its a bath.

C