Righteousness

[Theodore A. Jones]

So Calvin didn't teach anyone to reject Christ and not have faith in Jesus? Right? So do you admit that Calvin didn't teach anything to cause a Christian to be lost?

(Not that I really care what Calvin taught.. I only follow Jesus and Scripture!)

By the way, in your belief and opinion, what happens to the baby who dies 1 or 2 hours after being born? Are they naturally LOST?

When children die at an early age it is to prevent them from suffering the evil of their day. I can't remember the ref. at the moment but God is quoted in support of this position.
A Christian can be decieved by false teaching possibly resulting in the loss of their salvation. Anyone that accepts the belief system of Calvin for salvation remains lost.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

When children die at an early age it is to prevent them from suffering the evil of their day. I can't remember the ref. at the moment but God is quoted in support of this position.
A Christian can be decieved by false teaching possibly resulting in the loss of their salvation. Anyone that accepts the belief system of Calvin for salvation remains lost.

1. Where is this Bible quote or verse that says children die at an early age it is to prevent them from suffering the evil of their day? Can you find it because I have read Bible and never come across it, or cannot recall it. Are you sure it biblical? And are 100% of babies who die going to be in heaven? Or just some? If so, why were some babies lost?

2. Can you tell me which Calvin belief system causes a person to be lost?

 

[francisdesales]

We cannot find the truth together, that's the point, because one embraces the truth and the other is rejecting the truth. You claim that righteousness is given through obedience, but God's Word says it's only given through FAITH IN JESUS and not through our law keeping.

According to you, you are SINLESS and perfectly keeping the law, so according to you you do not commit adultery or any sin!

But as for me and the rest of the world, we are sinners and James said we are guilty of breaking the WHOLE LAW, adultery included, yet we are covered by GRACE!

Interesting...

Doesn't Paul write that love is obedience and fulfillment to the WHOLE Law?

By the way, I didn't see Theodore state that he was sinless. Why do you insist on making such statements?

Regards

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Interesting...

Doesn't Paul write that love is obedience and fulfillment to the WHOLE Law?

By the way, I didn't see Theodore state that he was sinless. Why do you insist on making such statements?

Regards

1. Where does Paul say that?

2. Was Paul obedient to God and never disobedient? Read Romans 7:15 before answering please.

3. Can a sinner, which means someone who breaks God's Law be considered obedient?

4. The comment was made to elijah23, not Theodore! Elijah told me that he was SINLESS! Haven't you read his comments?

5. Why do you falsely claim I am talking to Theodore when I was talking to elijah23?

 

[Saltwater]

1. Where does Paul say that?

2. Was Paul obedient to God and never disobedient? Read Romans 7:15 before answering please.

3. Can a sinner, which means someone who breaks God's Law be considered obedient?

4. The comment was made to elijah23, not Theodore! Elijah told me that he was SINLESS! Haven't you read his comments?

5. Why do you falsely claim I am talking to Theodore when I was talking to elijah23?

Righteousness

2. Was Paul obedient to God and never disobedient? Read Romans 7:15 before answering please.

Hello TruthSeeker2012,

With regards to point no.2: I read v15 & even made some effort to read further, in fact I made it to v19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

That thing about practicing evil sounded familiar to me & sure enough I found it in Gal519-20 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Hmmm, now here’s a quandary for me. From the above verses those who practice living according to the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God & from Rom7:19 Paul is practicing evil. So Paul whilst living like that will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

So at the end of Rom7 Paul asks a very important question v24 – who will rescue him from this body of death?

And we have our crystal clear answer in Rom ch 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Especially noting v6 where Paul is rescued from the body of death mentioned in Rom7:24.

Conclusion – in Rom 7 Paul is dealing with a legitimate question about the law (see v7) & its role in salvation. Rom 7 describes a pre-christian Paul & his encounter with the law & how sin used the law to stir itself up in him v7-8.

This is a stock standard Arminian/Wesleyan interpretation of Rom 7.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Righteousness

2. Was Paul obedient to God and never disobedient? Read Romans 7:15 before answering please.

Hello TruthSeeker2012,

With regards to point no.2: I read v15 & even made some effort to read further, in fact I made it to v19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

That thing about practicing evil sounded familiar to me & sure enough I found it in Gal519-20 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. ...

According to you then Paul was a LOST MAN writing two thirds of the BIble and according to you, JESUS LIED when He said:

Matt 21:31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

 

[Saltwater]

According to you then Paul was a LOST MAN writing two thirds of the BIble and according to you, JESUS LIED when He said:

Matt 21:31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

Hello TruthSeeker2012,

Of course I do not mean that at all nor did I state that in my earlier post!!

By posting such a comment as the above I must question if you bothered to read my whole post where I stated the following in crystal clear easy to understand language in my conclusion.

Conclusion – in Rom 7 Paul is dealing with a legitimate question about the law (see v7) & its role in salvation. Rom 7 describes a pre-christian Paul & his encounter with the law & how sin used the law to stir itself up in him v7-8.

This is a stock standard Arminian/Wesleyan interpretation of Rom 7.

I would encourage you to look at alternative views that challenge your theology & then try & fault their exegesis - ie. the scriptures used to support the alternate viewpoint.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Hello TruthSeeker2012,

Of course I do not mean that at all nor did I state that in my earlier post!!

By posting such a comment as the above I must question if you bothered to read my whole post where I stated the following in crystal clear easy to understand language in my conclusion.

Conclusion – in Rom 7 Paul is dealing with a legitimate question about the law (see v7) & its role in salvation. Rom 7 describes a pre-christian Paul & his encounter with the law & how sin used the law to stir itself up in him v7-8.

This is a stock standard Arminian/Wesleyan interpretation of Rom 7.

I would encourage you to look at alternative views that challenge your theology & then try & fault their exegesis - ie. the scriptures used to support the alternate viewpoint.

Ok, thanks for your feedback and comments.

But let it be known...I believe righteousness is given by FAITH ALONE, through Christ, and not from anything we do.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[Saltwater]

Ok, thanks for your feedback and comments.

But let it be known...I believe righteousness is given by FAITH ALONE, through Christ, and not from anything we do.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Hello TruthSeeker2012,

Thank you for the polite reply. Phil3:9 sums up my viewpoint re righteousness as well.

Reading back thru this post I think the point you are missing, especially with Francisdesales comments, is that true faith is revealed by works that we do which is ultimately an expression of love. Love for God & love for our neighbour.

With regards to the thief it is pretty clear that he must have fulfilled Acts20:21 in order to be saved. As to what works would reveal his faith to be true while hanging on a cross I think Luke23:40 gives us an indication. As Francisdesales has pointed out we have no information about how the thief responded verbally to Jesus words in v43.

To sum up we do not have to do "works" to be saved but works will flow from us after we are saved per Eph2:10.The thing to watch out for is that our faith is not destroyed by living according to the flesh or by false doctrine & that we do not get weary of doing good.

Again I would encourage you to check out some Arminian/Wesleyan theology & see where you can fault it. I did that with Calvinism/Reformed theology as well as the Arminian/Wesleyan and came to the conclusion that a theology which ignores texts that refutes it or goes into long winded explanations is to be avoided.

PS - I hope you have calmed down a bit as things got a bit out of control for all of us over the last few days.I like being involved in debate but sometimes we have to step back for awhile.

 

[francisdesales]

1. Where does Paul say that?

In the letter to the Romans...

2. Was Paul obedient to God and never disobedient? Read Romans 7:15 before answering please.

I have already responded to that question.

3. Can a sinner, which means someone who breaks God's Law be considered obedient?

What do you mean by "sinner"

4. The comment was made to elijah23, not Theodore! Elijah told me that he was SINLESS! Haven't you read his comments?

You spoke to both of these people and said the same thing. Now, your current target is elijah23. I find your method of "evangalization" very abrasive. Is that your intent?

5. Why do you falsely claim I am talking to Theodore when I was talking to elijah23?

Do you make accusatory statements about the sinlessness of people on this forum, Yes or No...?

 

[francisdesales]

But let it be known...I believe righteousness is given by FAITH ALONE, through Christ, and not from anything we do.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Are you saying that righteousness is given by faith alone? yes or no?




[/QUOTE]

 

[reba]

Drop the Catholic remarks Truthseeker reba

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

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Are you saying that righteousness is given by faith alone? yes or no?

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying, so does the Scripture:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, that's exactly what I am saying, so does the Scripture:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I suggest you keep reading Phillipians chapter 3. The idea of "faith alone" is devastated by the rest of what Paul says in the rest of the chapter!!!

In addition, Paul is contrasting with "works of the Law", Mosaic rules and regulations, not acts of love and forgiveness. Your idea of "works" is lacking.

Stop proof texting and read the context of verses. Paul is not stating "faith alone saves". In verse 12, he states he has NOT YET ATTAINED IT! Now, if faith alone saves with nothing else, why does Paul say he does not have it yet? Why does he continue to strive for the goal? Why does he tell others to follow his EXAMPLE?

Regards

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

I suggest you keep reading Phillipians chapter 3. The idea of "faith alone" is devastated by the rest of what Paul says in the rest of the chapter!!!

In addition, Paul is contrasting with "works of the Law", Mosaic rules and regulations, not acts of love and forgiveness. Your idea of "works" is lacking.

Stop proof texting and read the context of verses. Paul is not stating "faith alone saves". In verse 12, he states he has NOT YET ATTAINED IT! Now, if faith alone saves with nothing else, why does Paul say he does not have it yet? Why does he continue to strive for the goal? Why does he tell others to follow his EXAMPLE?

Regards

DeSales you are as far out in right field as "Truth Seeker" is in left. No person "loves" his way into God's kingdom by his own acts of forgiveness. Neither of you can make the play.

 

[francisdesales]

DeSales you are as far out in right field as "Truth Seeker" is in left.

I guess that makes you the center of the universe...

No person "loves" his way into God's kingdom by his own acts of forgiveness. Neither of you can make the play.

Where exactly did I say this? Where did I IMPLY it? Are you addressing me? I have not said that my own acts of anything earns salvation!!!

My freakin signature line (which I chose, thanks) states the opposite, yet people keep up with the false accusations... :

What is up with some people here? Can't they read or what? I have been accused of this by 4 or 5 different people - but not a single one can point to a phrase uttered that shows I believe this.

I have explicitly denied that we earn salvation by ANYTHING we do, love, faith, ANYTHING.

My signature line states otherwise. I deny it over and over again.

But this keeps coming up... I am not sure why.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

I guess that makes you the center of the universe...



Where exactly did I say this? Where did I IMPLY it? Are you addressing me? I have not said that my own acts of anything earns salvation!!!

My freakin signature line (which I chose, thanks) states the opposite, yet people keep up with the false accusations... :

What is up with some people here? Can't they read or what? I have been accused of this by 4 or 5 different people - but not a single one can point to a phrase uttered that shows I believe this.

I have explicitly denied that we earn salvation by ANYTHING we do, love, faith, ANYTHING.

My signature line states otherwise. I deny it over and over again.

But this keeps coming up... I am not sure why.

"not acts of love and forgiveness."

 

[childeye]

Righteousness is trusting in a Holy God and all that that entails. One must come to know God for that to happen in all sincerity.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Righteousness is trusting in a Holy God and all that that entails. One must come to know God for that to happen in all sincerity.

If your conjecture is true there is no reasonable reason for Jesus' crucifixion.

 

[childeye]

If your conjecture is true there is no reasonable reason for Jesus' crucifixion.

Yes I do find sin unreasonable. But it is not conjecture that the Christ is the True Image of the invisible God sent to man that we might believe and know Him.