'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

[OzSpen]

The book of Acts is a transition period in the early church. By the time most of the NT was written, most of the miraculous activity died out. In fact, the writer of Hebrews performed no miraculous deed, as indicated in 2:4, where he excludes himself from those who performed miracles. Furthermore, he indicates that those miracles were for validating the gospel message that the apostles were teaching, since they had no written documents of it at that time.

TD,

I suggest you do some more reading in the early church fathers. St. Augustine didn't agree with your view regarding the miraculous. See my research: St. Augustine: The leading Church Father who dared to change his mind about divine healing

Oz

If someone blows random notes on a trumpet (blows jibberish) then no knows what is going on causing mass confusion. Therefore what is blown MUST BE UNDERSTOOD so people know what is going on. Likewise a tongue must be spoken in a language the hearer CAN UNDERSTAND or it is meaningless jibberish to the hearer, the speaker is speaking to the air, no edification takes place.

Ernest,

I find your language about tongues as 'jibberish' to be offensive. If you read 1 Cor 14 (ESV) carefully, you would discover:

• '5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. 6 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?
• So Paul wants all of the Corinthians and by extension, all of us, to speak in tongues. That's Bible.
• While Paul wants all with the gift of tongues to use it, he would prefer if we used prophecy.
• There's another dimension in 1 Cor 14: 10-15 (ESV): '10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. 13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also'.
• Therefore, God has provided a way in the public meeting for tongues not to be 'jibberish'. Every exercise of the gift of tongues in the church or small group must be accompanied by the gift of interpretation.

They are not my presuppositions or bias speaking. It's straight from the Bible.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

The purpose of those signs was to bring about the completed NT and confirmation of it (Heb 2:3-4) which occurred by the end of the first century, Therefore the signs fulfilled their purpose and ceased as Paul said they would. The best analogy I have heard is when a building is under construction scaffolding is used to complete the construction. Once the building is completed the scaffolding is removed, it fulfilled its purpose and is no longer needed.

Paul referred to those signs as childish things for the church in the first century was in its infancy and did not have the completed NT as we do today. But upon completion of the NT childish things are put away. The mature church today has the completed NT revelation and has no need for those signs, childish things.

The NT speaks of those signs performed back in the first century and people today can believe those written down miracles....."And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." Jn 20:30-31

"are written" is perfect tense denoting an action that took place in the past with an abiding effect. In other words, John wrote those miracles down that took place in the past so they would still have the abiding effect of inducing belief in people today. Therefore there is no need for a repetition of these signs. To claim we need signs today undermines the reason John wrote them down.

Miracle defined would be something that goes against nature, something the forces nature cannot produce itself. Speaking in 'ecstatic utterances' is not miraculous (nor has a Bible basis).

Matt 3:11; Luke 3:16; Acts 1:5 was to the Apostles not anyone today. It was just the Apostles in Acts 1:1-5 that Christ promised baptism with the Holy Spirit, it was just the Apostles that were promised the Comforter and it was just the Apostles in Acts 2 that was baptized with the Holy Spirit and spake in tongues. There is no miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit today. There is no baptism with the Holy Spirit today for has been long fulfilled and ceased. The one baptism (Eph 4:4-5) in effect today is the human administered water baptism of Christ's great commission. Mt 28:19-20. Those today who claim tongue speaking and baptism with the Holy Spirit cannot provide any objective proof Biblical proof that it is taking place today.

Hebrews 2:1-4 are warnings against neglecting salvation. Tongues is a part of those Spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:10. Not any one of these gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 have ever ceased to exist. It's not a Pentecostal thing, but that which has been given to everyone beginning on the day of Pentecost. All these gifts are for the lifting up and edifying the body of Christ.

It is Dispensationalist, Cessationism and Reformers like John Calvin that brought about this view that speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. I know they have not ceased as I have received these gifts through the Holy Spirit and have used them within the body of Christ as another gave the interpretation and also use the gift of tongues in my prayer time.

None of these Spiritual gifts have ceased in the true church being the body of Christ with He being the head of the Church. In the upper room on the day of Pentecost there were around 120 people gathered in that room and they were all baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence/sign of speaking in tongues.

How can things in the first century have an abiding effect today causing belief if no one today experiences and exercises these gifts of the Holy Spirit, especially within the workings of the Church. What about the power of prayer as we see signs of the power of God. It is only Cessationalist and Dispensationalist that believe God only worked through His Apostles and since they are dead then all the gifts died with them. This is not what is taught in scripture.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

After Peter was done preaching to the crowd on the day of the Feast of Pentecost:
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Two baptisms as one being baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin and the second being baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues.

Beginning at Acts 1:5 Jesus was talking only to the disciples in the upper room before he ascended up to heaven as He said: "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was first given to the disciples before they were commissioned to go preach to the Jews. The disciples then left the upper room and watched Jesus ascending up to heaven. When they returned back to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives they entered back into the upper room where there was 120 assembled there and they sought who to replace Judas and Matthias was chosen.

Starting in Acts 2:1-13 we begin with the coming of the Holy Spirit as all 120 were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues, not just the disciples. Vs. 14-37 Peter begins his ministry speaking to te crowd that was gathered in Jerusalem on the day of the feast of Pentecost. Vs 37-41 after hearing Peter speak Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

3000 were baptized in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Acts 10 Peter came to Cornelius and he and his household were baptized in the Holy Spirit. Acts 19 was the third instance of believers receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongue that occurred years after Pentecost. Acts 8 was the fourth instance of believers receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit were the Samaritan believers who were baptized in the name of Jesus, but knew nothing of the baptism of the Holy Spirit until they heard and then received with the sign of speaking in tongues, which was a sign to Simon they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The fifth instance is found in Acts 9 where we read of Saul/Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues, (1 Corinthians 14:18).

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is the evidence you have received not only the Baptism of Christ for the remission of sin , but also have been Baptized in the Holy Spirit. If you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit then you should have the Biblical evidence that goes hand in hand of speaking in tongues.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. (Notice is also says they began to prophecy).

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1 Corinthians 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

 

[for_his_glory]

Where did Paul say it would cease?

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Paul also says when these will cease:
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Paul is writing to the Corinthian Church to correct the improper use of some of these gifts and the improper emphasis on the more spectacular gifts. Right in the middle of his discussion he speaks about the superior quality of love as they were not using their gifts in love for each other. Gifts will cease to exist when Christ returns, but the greatest gift of love will never cease.

 

[OzSpen]

The book of Acts is a transition period in the early church. By the time most of the NT was written, most of the miraculous activity died out. In fact, the writer of Hebrews performed no miraculous deed, as indicated in 2:4, where he excludes himself from those who performed miracles. Furthermore, he indicates that those miracles were for validating the gospel message that the apostles were teaching, since they had no written documents of it at that time. So since we can reasonably be certain that he didn't speak in tongues (because those tongues were miraculous), your idea is not consistent with the whole of scripture. The apostle Paul wrote in 1 Cor. that everyone in Christ has the Holy Spirit. In Rom. 8 he wrote "whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him." We also know that Paul acknowledged that not everyone having the Spirit spoke in tongues (1 Cor. 14). Therefore the idea that you are conveying here is that when someone (anyone) receives the Spirit, they speak in tongues. I know this because I am well aware of Pentecostal doctrine in this matter. So the only conclusion I can come to with your question is that it is irrelevant. It is a trick question to see if I am willing to be manipulated into your talking point, which is saturated in Pentecostal doctrine and tradition. The question itself is not Biblical in nature.
TD

TD,

This is factually untrue.

I suggest you go searching in the early church fathers to determine if miracles (including the gift of tongues) continued. Here's a starter:

Irenaeus (ca. AD 130-202) was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John. He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, ch 6.1.: "In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms spiritual, they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual."

Chrysostom (ca. AD 347-407), Archbishop of Constantinople, wrote:

"Whoever was baptized [in apostolic times] he straightway spoke with tongues and not with tongues only, but many also prophesied, and some also performed many other wonderful works. For since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the ancient Scriptures, they at once on their baptism received the Spirit, yet the Spirit they saw not, for It is invisible; therefore God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of that energy. And one straightway spoke in the Persian, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other such tongue: and this made manifest to them that were without that it is the Spirit in the very person speaking"....

For as the Apostles themselves had received this sign first, so also the faithful went on receiving it, I mean,the gift of tongues; yet not this only but also many others: inasmuch as many used even to raise the dead and to cast out devils and to perform many other such wonders: and they had gifts too, some less, and some more. But more abundant than all was the gift of tongues among them: and this became to them a cause of division.... (Chrysostom, 1 Corinthians 12, Homily XXIX).

In the early writings of St Augustine (AD 354-430), Bishop of Hippo, he wrote:

In the earliest times, the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spoke with tongues, which they had not learned, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4 These were signs adapted to the time. For there behooved to be that betokening of the Holy Spirit in all tongues, to show that the Gospel of God was to run through all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening, and it passed away (Homily 6.10 on the First Epistle of John).

However, in his later ministry he had a change of heart with regard to his understanding of Scripture and its manifestation in his time. Later in his writings, in The City of God, he had a chapter titled, 'That All the Miracles Which are Done by Means of the Martyrs in the Name of Christ Testify to that Faith Which the Martyrs Had in Christ' (Book XXII, ch 9). Here he documents the miracles happening in his day. In the same Book he stated, 'For men whom they knew to be acquainted with only one, or at most two languages, they marvelled to hear speaking in the tongues of all nations' (Book XXII, ch 5)....

For the canon of the sacred writings, which behooved to be closed, causes those to be everywhere recited, and to sink into the memory of all the congregations; but these modern miracles are scarcely known even to the whole population in the midst of which they are wrought, and at the best are confined to one spot. For frequently they are known only to a very few persons, while all the rest are ignorant of them, especially if the state is a large one; and when they are reported to other persons in other localities, there is no sufficient authority to give them prompt and unwavering credence, although they are reported to the faithful by the faithful.

The miracle which was wrought at Milan when I was there, and by which a blind man was restored to sight, could come to the knowledge of many; for not only is the city a large one, but also the emperor was there at the time, and the occurrence was witnessed by an immense concourse of people that had gathered to the bodies of the martyrs Protasius and Gervasius, which had long lain concealed and unknown, but were now made known to the bishop Ambrose in a dream, and discovered by him. By virtue of these remains the darkness of that blind man was scattered, and he saw the light of day (The City of God, Book XXII, ch 8).

Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

 

[Hopeful]

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Paul also says when these will cease:
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Paul is writing to the Corinthian Church to correct the improper use of some of these gifts and the improper emphasis on the more spectacular gifts. Right in the middle of his discussion he speaks about the superior quality of love as they were not using their gifts in love for each other. Gifts will cease to exist when Christ returns, but the greatest gift of love will never cease.

They will cease at the return of Jesus with His flaming angels.

 

[JLB]

As it is called the "gift of tongues", it is given, not learned.

It is a language given as a gift.

My point is not whether it is a gift or not, but whether we are pronouncing the words that flow from our spirit and are pronounced with our vocal cords correctly.


It’s like I f you take a class to learn Spanish. When you first start to pronounce these new words you are learning, it’s takes some time and effort to make sure you are pronouncing the new syllables correctly, so it doesn’t sound like jibberish.


IOW, you can hear someone who speaks the language fluently, speak the phrase you are wanting to speak, but that doesn’t mean you yourself can speak that phrase fluently the first time you try. It takes doing it a few times to get every nuance of this new language to flow smoothly.

That s what I mean by “learn”. Your mouth and tongue have to adjust to pronouncing sounds it has never pronounced before.


JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hebrews 2:1-4 are warnings against neglecting salvation. Tongues is a part of those Spiritual gifts from the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:10. Not any one of these gifts in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 have ever ceased to exist. It's not a Pentecostal thing, but that which has been given to everyone beginning on the day of Pentecost. All these gifts are for the lifting up and edifying the body of Christ.

It is Dispensationalist, Cessationism and Reformers like John Calvin that brought about this view that speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. I know they have not ceased as I have received these gifts through the Holy Spirit and have used them within the body of Christ as another gave the interpretation and also use the gift of tongues in my prayer time.

None of these Spiritual gifts have ceased in the true church being the body of Christ with He being the head of the Church. In the upper room on the day of Pentecost there were around 120 people gathered in that room and they were all baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence/sign of speaking in tongues.

How can things in the first century have an abiding effect today causing belief if no one today experiences and exercises these gifts of the Holy Spirit, especially within the workings of the Church. What about the power of prayer as we see signs of the power of God. It is only Cessationalist and Dispensationalist that believe God only worked through His Apostles and since they are dead then all the gifts died with them. This is not what is taught in scripture.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

After Peter was done preaching to the crowd on the day of the Feast of Pentecost:
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Two baptisms as one being baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin and the second being baptized in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues.

Beginning at Acts 1:5 Jesus was talking only to the disciples in the upper room before he ascended up to heaven as He said: "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit was first given to the disciples before they were commissioned to go preach to the Jews. The disciples then left the upper room and watched Jesus ascending up to heaven. When they returned back to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives they entered back into the upper room where there was 120 assembled there and they sought who to replace Judas and Matthias was chosen.

Starting in Acts 2:1-13 we begin with the coming of the Holy Spirit as all 120 were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues, not just the disciples. Vs. 14-37 Peter begins his ministry speaking to te crowd that was gathered in Jerusalem on the day of the feast of Pentecost. Vs 37-41 after hearing Peter speak Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

3000 were baptized in the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Acts 10 Peter came to Cornelius and he and his household were baptized in the Holy Spirit. Acts 19 was the third instance of believers receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongue that occurred years after Pentecost. Acts 8 was the fourth instance of believers receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit were the Samaritan believers who were baptized in the name of Jesus, but knew nothing of the baptism of the Holy Spirit until they heard and then received with the sign of speaking in tongues, which was a sign to Simon they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The fifth instance is found in Acts 9 where we read of Saul/Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues, (1 Corinthians 14:18).

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is the evidence you have received not only the Baptism of Christ for the remission of sin , but also have been Baptized in the Holy Spirit. If you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit then you should have the Biblical evidence that goes hand in hand of speaking in tongues.

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. (Notice is also says they began to prophecy).

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1 Corinthians 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Paul clearly said they would cease when they accomplished their purpose, that purpose being bringing about the completed (perfect) NT which occurred by the end of the first century. From Acts 8 we read an Apostle could lay his hands upon another person and pass on an apostolic gift to that person but that person could not pass it on to another. Therefore when the last Apostle died there was no one left to pass these gifts on. When the last of those died whom the Apostles laid hands upon those gifts ceased exactly as Paul said they would.
None of the verses you cite says anyone today is baptized with the Holy Spirit much less possess a miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Again, when I have personally confronted these self-proclaimed miracle workers they would not (could not) perform a miraculous signs. Just offered excuses.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

TD,

I suggest you do some more reading in the early church fathers. St. Augustine didn't agree with your view regarding the miraculous. See my research: St. Augustine: The leading Church Father who dared to change his mind about divine healing

Oz


Ernest,

I find your language about tongues as 'jibberish' to be offensive. If you read 1 Cor 14 (ESV) carefully, you would discover:

• '5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. 6 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?
• So Paul wants all of the Corinthians and by extension, all of us, to speak in tongues. That's Bible.
• While Paul wants all with the gift of tongues to use it, he would prefer if we used prophecy.
• There's another dimension in 1 Cor 14: 10-15 (ESV): '10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. 13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also'.
• Therefore, God has provided a way in the public meeting for tongues not to be 'jibberish'. Every exercise of the gift of tongues in the church or small group must be accompanied by the gift of interpretation.

They are not my presuppositions or bias speaking. It's straight from the Bible.

Oz

What I mean by jibberish is ecstatic utterances, non-understandable syllables which is not found in the Bible. The tongues in the NT church comprised of speaking known earthly languages, where the speaker could instantly speak an earthly language which he previously could not. Such was needed to take the gospel to a world full of different languages.

The tongues spoken by the Corinthians were no different than the tongues spoken by the Apostles in Acts 2. Nothing in any verse anywhere indicates there was any difference. Again, I demonstrated earlier the tongues Paul is speaking about in 1 Cor 14 were known earthly languages.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Where did Paul say it would cease?

1 Cor 13 and Eph 4. (I made a post on both contexts earlier in this thread)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That "purpose" neglects Rom 8: 26's praying "for we know not what we should pray for as we aught: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
This is another reason for the gift of tongues besides the "construction" which you listed.

There is nothing miraculous in Rom 8:26.

Rom 8:24-26 "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

Just as patience helps the Christian in times of difficulties "likewise" the Spirit also helps in difficult times. Jesus taught disciples how to pray nor is Paul saying the Christian does not know what to pray for, but in difficult troubling times the Christian may not know the precise words needed. Therefore the Spirit makes intercession to convey the Christian's desires to God. The Spirit is not praying for the Christian but the Spirit knows what is in the heart of the Christian (1 Cor 2:10) and God knows what is in the mind of the Spirit. So through the mind of the Spirit God knows what troubles and difficulties the Christian is having. There is nothing miraculous being done here by the Christian.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Were all the people at Pentecost from the many nations gathered in Jerusalem, eyewitness of Christ?


The Promise of the Father, the Holy Spirit is for all.


It is the power to be His witness.


But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Acts 1:8



No one has this power by being baptized in water.


Peter ran from a little girl.


Then when He was baptized with the Holy Spirit He stood up godly in the presence of those who murdered Jesus Christ unafraid and preached the Gospel under a powerful anointing and 3000 unbelieving Jews were added to the Church.


If you would rather live a powerless Christian life, in denial of the Holy Spirit, then that is on you.


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues.
Mark 16:15-17

• these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues.

These are signs of believers.




JLB

The Apostles were eyewitnesses of Christ and their inspired words they spoke were also witnesses along with the miraculous signs given them were also a witness Heb 2:2-4. All the Apostles died some 2000 years ago, none today with inspiration or miraculous abilities.

The plural pronoun "they" of Mk 16:17 refers back to 'the eleven" of v14. The 'they' and 'them' of Mk 16:17-20 refers to the Apostles note especially in verses 19-20 the plural pronouns refer to the Apostles.

 

[JLB]

none today with inspiration or miraculous abilities.

What a sad testimony about Christ and His people.

Truly sad.


Brother your whole understanding about the baptism of the Spirit, speaking in tongues, gifts of the Spirit, healing the sick and casting out devils is just a denial of God’s word.


Your claim that all these things have somehow ended is not biblical.


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

• And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

These are the signs that follow believers.

You seem to think that these signs follow Apostles.

As long as there are believers, there will be these signs.





JLB

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What a sad testimony about Christ and His people.

Truly sad.


Brother your whole understanding about the baptism of the Spirit, speaking in tongues, gifts of the Spirit, healing the sick and casting out devils is just a denial of God’s word.


Your claim that all these things have somehow ended is not biblical.


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

• And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

These are the signs that follow believers.

You seem to think that these signs follow Apostles.

As long as there are believers, there will be these signs.





JLB

In the context of Mark 16:16 it was the Apostles who were the unbelievers (Mk 16:11-13) and Jesus upbraided them for their unbelief (Mk 16:14). Mk 16:17 "them" (of the eleven Apostles, v14) that believe will have signs following. How can "believe" of Mk 16:17 mean each and every believer of all times will have all the signs mentioned when in the first century (when they actually did possess signs) not all believers had all of those signs.... some had no sign at all, (1 Cor 12:29-30)?

 

[JLB]

In the context of Mark 16:16 it was the Apostles who were the unbelievers

So now the Apostles were unbelievers?


Ok. Got it.


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18

• And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;

These are the signs that follow believers.

You seem to think that these signs follow Apostles.

As long as there are believers, there will be these signs.




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

In the context of Mark 16:16 it was the Apostles who were the unbelievers (Mk 16:11-13) and Jesus upbraided them for their unbelief (Mk 16:14). Mk 16:17 "them" (of the eleven Apostles, v14) that believe will have signs following. How can "believe" of Mk 16:17 mean each and every believer of all times will have all the signs mentioned when in the first century (when they actually did possess signs) not all believers had all of those signs.... some had no sign at all, (1 Cor 12:29-30)?

Ernest,

I see 2 issues with your line of reasoning:

1. You quote extensively from Mark 16:9ff. These verses are not in the earliest Greek MSS, so are excluded from many NTs.
2. You are forgetting Jesus' instructions: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father' (John 14:12 ESV).

Did Jesus perform miraculous works while on earth? Of course. On the word of Jesus' authority, those who believe in him will not only do the works that he did. They will do 'greater works'. What are they?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

They will cease at the return of Jesus with His flaming angels.

Hopeful,

This is confirmed in the passage:

​

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known (1 Cor 13:8-12 ESV, emphasis added).​

This is very clear. Prophecies, tongues and knowledge will pass away because they represent only partial knowledge/revelation.

When will these gifts cease? When we see clearly in a mirror. That is when we see Him 'face to face' and 'shall know fully'.

The context of 1 Cor 13 tells us precisely when the gifts will cease. It will happen when we are face to face with our blessed Saviour.

Oz

 

[for_his_glory]

Paul clearly said they would cease when they accomplished their purpose, that purpose being bringing about the completed (perfect) NT which occurred by the end of the first century. From Acts 8 we read an Apostle could lay his hands upon another person and pass on an apostolic gift to that person but that person could not pass it on to another. Therefore when the last Apostle died there was no one left to pass these gifts on. When the last of those died whom the Apostles laid hands upon those gifts ceased exactly as Paul said they would.
None of the verses you cite says anyone today is baptized with the Holy Spirit much less possess a miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Again, when I have personally confronted these self-proclaimed miracle workers they would not (could not) perform a miraculous signs. Just offered excuses.

I already gave the full context in post #202 and 203 so really no need to go over all of that. Self proclaim is just that, being self/self righteous, separate from the workings of the indwelling Holy Spirit. We receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through the Spiritual rebirth, John 3:5-7.

It is Dispensationalist, Cessationism and Reformers like John Calvin that brought about this view that speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age.

Pentecostal and the Charismatic movement heightens the emotionalism being more important than the gifts themselves.

This is what Paul was trying to teach the Corinthian Church (that is a teaching for all of us) that the greatest of all these gifts is love. What is in part are all these Spiritual gifts that will cease when Christ returns, but love will never cease. This is the whole teaching of 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 teaching the Corinthian Church that these gifts are important to the body of Christ, but to put more emphasis on the greatest which is love.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Those today who claim to speak in a tongue (ecstatic utterances) do not have interpreters

I've been a member in the Assemblies of God Pentecostal group for well over 55 years, and over that time span, I can STILL count on the fingers of both hands (with fingers left over) the times that a TONGUE was spoken as a message in a service (many hundreds of occurrences), and there was NO interpretation given. In quite a few cases I was the one burdened by the Holy Spirit to give the interpretation. SO your bold pontification simply isn't according to the facts.

Oh - and Speaking in tongues isn't in any way "Ecstatic". There's no "Emotion" involved in it at all. The Holy Spirit simply sends words into your mind and you Speak them - exactly the same as "Interpretation", or "Prophesy".

 

[for_his_glory]

The word of God teaches that when we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we speak with other tongues as the Holy Spirit gives us utterance. Speaking in tongues is an initial evidence, or a sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. When you pray in tongues your spirit is in direct contact with God's who is Spirit. Acts 11:15-17, Acts 19:1-7

Acts chapter 1, 2 there were 120, including the disciples, all being the first to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. After Peter preached to the crowd gathered in Jerusalem that day, 3000 more were added to the body of Christ being baptized and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14 Paul encouraged the Corinthian Christians to continue the practice of speaking in tongues in their private prayer life as a means of spiritual edification or helping one to build them self up. Scripture says he that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself. Paul also said, for if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays. In other words my spirit, by the Holy Spirit within me prays.

Romans 8:26, 27 Paul wrote to the church at Rome, "for we know not what we should pray for as we ought. " He didn't say we did not know how to pray, but that we know not what we should pray for as we ought, but the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings, which can not be uttered. The Holy Spirit is not going to do our praying for us as God has sent His Spirit to help us pray. It's like a perfect prayer language as in our own words our mind wonders and strays while we are trying to pray. When we pray in tongues it brings us into a closer relationship/fellowship with Christ for what ever it is within our petition before Him as He makes intercession before the Father on our behalf.

When we first begin our prayer language it sounds weird to us like speaking jibberish that makes us feel it isn't real, but just something we are forcing to come out of our mouth because we want this so bad. Some of us that speak/pray in tongues usually began with one syllable and the more we kept repeating that, it soon became a whole language. It's like having oneness or completeness with Christ through the Holy Spirit that speaks on our behalf for things we do not know how to pray for as the words start flowing out of our mouth. We can't understand this language as it is a Spiritual language between our Spirit and the Spirit of God, perfect in all that is spoken.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Notice it says the church, which means the body of Christ with He being the head of the church.

 

[Hopeful]

It is a language given as a gift.

My point is not whether it is a gift or not, but whether we are pronouncing the words that flow from our spirit and are pronounced with our vocal cords correctly.


It’s like I f you take a class to learn Spanish. When you first start to pronounce these new words you are learning, it’s takes some time and effort to make sure you are pronouncing the new syllables correctly, so it doesn’t sound like jibberish.


IOW, you can hear someone who speaks the language fluently, speak the phrase you are wanting to speak, but that doesn’t mean you yourself can speak that phrase fluently the first time you try. It takes doing it a few times to get every nuance of this new language to flow smoothly.

That s what I mean by “learn”. Your mouth and tongue have to adjust to pronouncing sounds it has never pronounced before.


JLB

It isn't "you" pronouncing the words: it is the Spirit within you doing the communicating.