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'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

another subject that creates division.

What division?

Division only comes by those who are not willing to discuss why and how they believe as they try to force their beliefs on another. If you do not want to participate in the discussion then why come into one and make such a statement.

reddogs started a ligament topic for discussion and that is what we are doing.
 
i have distorted nothing jerry63935 is simply a screen name so please refer to me with the 63935 my point is i dont need to use tongues to pray.have a good evening

And that is your prerogative as no one forces us to pray in tongues, but many of us accept the gift given to us.
 
And that is your prerogative as no one forces us to pray in tongues, but many of us accept the gift given to us.
lol i see this subject is touchy like the salvation post not allowed . fyi i never used the word force . i have no issue with the gift . i sometimes take issue with the user of the gift . many worship the gift and the use of it.see i dont need to speak in tongues to pray.
What division?

Division only comes by those who are not willing to discuss why and how they believe as they try to force their beliefs on another. If you do not want to participate in the discussion then why come into one and make such a statement.
i have discussed i have gave my point on it.. i have been told i am wrong... there is your devison unity is not telling a person your wrong .because your not believing like me
 
Our prayer language given by the Holy Spirit is for things we do not know how to pray for as the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us before the Father.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. curious where doe this say praying/ speaking in tongues ? it dont :thinking
 
Uh
Ok
This is a

Tongues thread
Not end times

There are DIVERS kinds of Tongues

Even in Paul's time, he asks "do all speak with tongues?"

So the deal is, no one I know of denies that Tongues, Prophecy, Interpretaion and Word of Knowledge were operable in the past. Some, known as Cessationists, claim that those above gifts have already CEASED, as it was proclaimed they would indeed cease when THAT WHICH IS PERFECT came. Some Cessationists claim THE PERFECT to be completion of NT Canon. Other Cessationists say it was something else, "Church becoming mature", etc. that caused the gifts to cease.

Point is, they have NOT CEASED. They continue.

The fact that there may be counterfeit occurrences in no way impugn the genuine.

Counterfeit money exists, that's a fact. That in no way impugns legitimate currency.

The burden of proof should be on the Cessationists, to show why and when the promise which was to "you, your children, and all who are afar off" would suddenly cease in this far-from-perfect world we are in now -- as we still await something unquestioningly PERFECT, MATURE and COMPLETE -- that being the state of things after the Lord's return.
 
lol i see this subject is touchy like the salvation post not allowed . fyi i never used the word force . i have no issue with the gift . i sometimes take issue with the user of the gift . many worship the gift and the use of it.see i dont need to speak in tongues to pray. i have discussed i have gave my point on it.. i have been told i am wrong... there is your devison unity is not telling a person your wrong .because your not believing like me

What are you even talking about as nothing we have discussed here is a touchy subject and I never said you used the word force as I was the one who said no one forces us to pray in tongues. And what does salvation have to do with this discussion. If you don't want to speak or pray in tongues so be it as it has nothing to do with your salvation.

You were the one who came in and said, "another subject that creates division". How would you expect others to react to such a statement.

I have seen no one use the word wrong towards you unless I missed something. The only thing that is wrong is that many do not believe the gift of tongues is for today and we have discussed this with the scriptures. So I really do not know what your problem is within all we have discussed so far.
 
So it should not be true vs false, but CEASED vs continuing.

ALL of the references to Tongues must be addressed, Acts ch 2 is NOT the only example of the NT tongues experience. The NT description of Tongues includes the person speaking to himself and God -- no "spreading of the gospel" in that case at all.
 
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. curious where doe this say praying/ speaking in tongues ? it dont :thinking

Infirmities are those things we know not what we should pray for meaning there are some things we do not have the exact words to express our self. Groanings are the language of the Holy Spirit who gives us the Spiritual language in order for us to those exact words even if we do not understand the words, God does.
 
Acts 2, the original Pentecostal experience, is VAST in and of itself.

The disciples - from an initial group of 120 people - SPOKE in other tongues, and the visiting people heard them, in various earthy languages. Some overlook that is says the disciples SPOKE in other tongues and try to make it simply a miracle of HEARING a message in Parthian, Cretan, or what have you. That's not what the Bible says (just a miracle of HEARING) - the Bible says disciples SPOKE and hearers HEARD - and I think it is a complicated thing to even picture.

Thomas and Andrew are in one section of Solomon's Porch speaking Parthian (I am just making an illustration here) - Parthian-speaking visitors give them their attention...

Philip and Bartholomew are in another section of Solomon's Porch speaking in the Cretan tongue, Cretes perk up and listen to them...

I don't KNOW that Solomon's Porch was the location, I saw in an exhibit where that was used, like I say - this one event alone is COMPLICATED TO CONVEY, and it is merely ONE of the DIVERS kinds of Tongues in the NT.
 
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About 14 different locations/nations are given by Luke in ch 2 for the hearers, therefore I submit the disciples SPOKE in these 14 earthly tongues to 14 groups of listeners...

Remember that later Peter was addressing EVERYONE (probably in Hebrew, which as a sacred language was known also to the visiting Jew from Crete, Parthian, wherever ) - do you see how complicated this is?

The visitors heard disciples speaking in their various tongues, then also heard Peter explain things later...
 
That was the first "sermon" in the church, Peter explaining Joel's prophecy and explaining about Jesus, to the visitors who had ALREADY had the miracle of the 120 disciples SPEAKING in their various tongues and them HEARING those tongues.
 
To me, Cessationists who harp on Acts 2! Acts 2! Acts 2!
don't even understand Acts 2.

And that is just ONE TYPE of the DIVERS kinds of Tongues.

The story I am reminded of in various threads like this about tongues is THE BLIND MEN DESCRIBING THE ELEPHANT.

One touched it's tail, said the elephant is like a rope, one touched it's side and said the elephant is like a wall, and on and on...

There is the type of tongue that requires interpretation - that's not Acts 2 at all, is it?
 
There is the type of tongue where the person speaks themself to God - neither Acts 2 nor interpretation

There is the "tongues of men and of angels" that PAUL speaks of, and just because he writes hypothetically and metaphorically about moving mountains, giving his body to be burned, etc - that Doesn't mean it s JUST a metaphor, I mean, God knows how many DID give their body to be burned. Still happening in parts of the world today.
 
Yeah, there will be no need for tongues, prophecy, interpretation, or Word of Knowledge once Jesus comes back.

Til then, remember Yogi Berra - "It ain't over til it's over".
 
I am aware that some pro-tongues people say wrong things sometimes. That you gotta speak in tongues to be saved. Silly. "I pointed out above that Even in Paul's time he asks the rhetorical question "do all speak with tongues?" And it's understood, no, they all don't.

Can tongues be faked by people and/or by Satan? Yep. Back to the counterfeit issue, I am not going to give away my real currency just because counterfeit money exists.

I am sorry if some pro-tongues people do bad things sometimes, but that does not affect the real issues of the diverse kinds of Tongues still being in effect.

Incumbent on Cessationists would be explaining what and when has caused tongues to have already 'CEASED'.
 
There are some that speak in tongues but don't believe in the Trinity - here I speak of UPC or "Oneness Pentecostals". They are not as big in numbers as Assembly of God or other Trinity-believing Pentecostals, I just point this out to show that speaking in tongues is NOT a litmus test for other facets of the faith.
 
We find that the scripture shows us that it did occur, but how can a Christian tell if 'Speaking in Tongues' is being given by the Holy Spirit or it has come by a false spirit. Just because a person starts to mutter, mumble or shout unknown 'words' doesn't necessarily mean that they are being given them by the Holy Spirit. People with dementia, or drunks and the insane mumble and shout unknown words, are they being given spiritual gifts of speaking in tongues. Of course not, so how can one tell if the source is from the Holy Spirit, or from another origin.

There are many references to speaking in tongues in the Bible, and we find the most about tongues are Acts 2 and I Corinthians 12-14. Now, you have to understand that at the time there were Jews and non-Jews who came to Jerusalem and from nearby regions who spoke another languages. To communicate with others with different languages, the early Christians needed to have been given a gift so they could understand the Gospel, and the scripture clearly shows that happening. There are many times being able to speak to others in their own tongue or language was very important as we see in the instance when Paul addressed the Jews to give them a understanding of who he was.

Acts 22
1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Now in Acts 2 when the Apostles speak in tongues it makes if very clear why and what they were speaking.

Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

The key part here is there were coming to Jerusalem, 'Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.' We clearly see the purpose and the actual use of speaking in tongues, it was not just babbling or muttering of foolish nonsense, it had a specific purpose and directed for the understanding of those from other languages and lands, as they heard 'speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.'

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

So speaking nonsensical words and utterances with no one to understand or for no practical reason, is it spiritually the same as the speaking in tongues given to the apostles and the early church.

Since this subject has been revived recently, I feel prompted to give some input into it. I have been studying this subject for a long time, since I used to fellowship with Pentecostals for about 20 years, and spoke modern glossolalia myself. I have have not heard every person's tongues-speaking, so I'm certainly not an expert, and certainly don't know if the true spiritual gift has been expressed in the world some place.

I'm certain that the glossolalia I spoke and all the glossolalia I have heard over my 20 years experience with Pentecostals is not the same thing as the Biblical tongues, and I will explain further. I have heard reports that tongues have been spoken that someone understood the language being spoken. However, I have doubts about such events, as people in the Charismatic camp often exaggerate events. It is often the proverbial fish story, and such stories often sound fishy.

Firstly, the way Biblical tongues was verified as miraculous is that there was someone who understood the language, as in Acts 2, or someone who could actually interpret the message as an intelligible communication as in 1 Cor. 14. Also, the Bible, as most historical literature, has historical precedents. IOW, since Acts 2 describes tongues in detail as a known spoken human language, it is reasonable to assume that all the tongues mentioned later is of the same kind, that is, known human languages.

There is no reason to assume that the tongues of 1 Cor. is different in nature than that of Acts 2. The only ones who assume that difference are those who have an agenda to believe it is different, IOW a presupposition. The context of 1 Cor. does not demand that we interpret the tongues in that context as different in nature than the tongues of Acts 2.

Especially since Peter said in Acts 10:46-47 that those in the house of Cornelius were given tongues as the apostles had. IOW, they were known human languages, and Peter was able to discern it. This is how it was verified that what those people spoke was a miraculous event, IOW a miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit. This was to prove to the apostles that the Holy Spirit had been given to the gentile believers, and so it was with the other events in which tongues was spoken.

This brings us to the point that modern day glossolalia is not a gift of the Holy Spirit, since it is not a miraculously gifted language. It cannot be verified as a miraculous language, since there has yet to be a translation of it. Many poke attempts at interpreting it, but such attempts are feeble attempts at mimicking what is believed to be the tongues-interpretation process.

The way that I know that modern day glossolalia is not a language is that expert linguists have analyzed many tongues speaking, and they all agree that there is not enough vocabulary to convey any intelligible meaning. Such glossolalia is often called nonsense, or "automatic speaking." It is of human origin, that is, it is a human phenomenon. We know this because Christians are not the only ones who do it. It is done by many of those in other religions, including Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Voodooism, Mormonism, and others. It is even done by people without any religious agenda.

Many of those glossolalias have been analyzed by the expert linguists. They agree that it is all the same nonsense speaking, so I don't believe that any of it is demonic in origin. There may be some isolated cases that are demonic in origin, but that is speculation, since the vast majority of it can be shown that anyone can do it, even fluently.

One other point I would like to make is that in my 20 years experience, I often heard Pentecostal leaders say that every Christian ought to speak in tongues. This in itself implies that they believe that anyone can do it. Of course, since Pentecostals believe it is from the Holy Spirit, that they claim only Christians can do it. But since we know for a fact that people in other religions can do it, it follows that anyone can do it, and therefore it is not a miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit. To claim that only the Pentecostal glossolalia is of God, and all others are counterfeit is merely an adherence to an agenda.

Let me say at this point that I am not trying to get tongues-speakers to stop. I'm merely saying to face reality of where it is coming from. Even the expert linguist I am studying materials at present, claims that this glossolalia has some religious value. IOW, if it makes you feel good, go ahead with it. Prayer makes me feel good, so I'll continue with it (as a comparison). I'm just saying that the more I study this phenomenon, the more I am convinced it is of human origin.

Just because someone gets some emotional value from speaking glossolalia doesn't prove it is of the Holy Spirit. If every tongues-speaker got some emotional value from it, such as a rapturous delight, or intense feeling of inspiration, every time they did it, then certainly that would be significant evidence to consider. But that is simply not the case. I have spoken to speakers of glossolalia that have said they get no emotional value from it whatsoever. I have asked "how does it edify you?" and the answer is usually "I have no idea, I just assume I'm edified because the Bible says it."

In my mind, if there is no sense of edification, or nothing that can be measured, then there is no edification. In my 44 years experience as a Christian, I have been edified many times, and have edified others many times. I'm pretty certain that edification includes knowledge, wisdom, faith in Christ, and the fruit of the Spirit. It appears to me that the only edification that modern glossolalia produces is the belief in modern glossolalia.

I'm sure that some will object to this statement, and that's ok, since everyone has an opinion about it. And it is obvious that this debate could continue for a long time, because when people have a vested interest in their opinion, they do not easily let it go or question the basis for it. It's the reason for so many denominations.
TD:)
 
We have someone who seems to say "I used to be Cessationist. for years, then went Continuationist," someone else says the opposite. Both in this thread.

I have been going to Christian message boards since 1999 - I have never seen anyone "change their minds" about tongues because of a thread on a message board.

So shall we gather at the river, and sing Church in the Wildwood?
 
Jerry,

You distorted what I said. I never suggested anything like going to a hospital to pray for a sick man and praying in tongues. That's a straw man.

What was the apostle Paul's view of tongues and also speaking in his native language?
'Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand' (1 Cor 14:15 NLT).​

There is no contradiction in private praying in the Spirit/spirit and praying in English. Paul used both approaches to prayer. Remember he had the gift of tongues and taught us:

Don’t forbid speaking in tongues. But be sure that everything is done properly and in order (1 Cor 14:39b-40 NLT).​

I used to believe as you do until the Holy Spirit gave me the gift of tongues in the early 1970s. I know what it is like to convert from a cessationist to a continuationist position on the gifts of the Spirit.

Oz
And I know what it's like to turn around the other way. Speaking in tongues to not. I did not make that change lightly. I sensed something was off about it I suppose mainly from all the things that had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit that I saw that people attached His name to. But I did not want to throw the baby out with the bath water. So I searched to find out why the sign gifts, tongues, miracles signs and wonders, healings are not active in the church today. They all served a purpose before the New Testament was available, to autheniicate the teaching of gospel. To give authority to the foundation being laid by the Apostles. Just as the miracles performed by Jesus autheniicated who He is. We have all this information and th authority attached to it in the New Testament. It needs no more authentication. And I am not saying God doesn't heal anymore but it is something we ask for. And if we get well, through whatever means, it is God healing. If He wants to perform a miracld of course He will. But these things are not meant to be a common part of our church services. Did I receive benefit, or perceived benefit when I spoke in tongues? Sure. Sometimes. But it was EMOTION and FEELINGS.
 
And I know what it's like to turn around the other way. Speaking in tongues to not. I did not make that change lightly. I sensed something was off about it I suppose mainly from all the things that had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit that I saw that people attached His name to. But I did not want to throw the baby out with the bath water. So I searched to find out why the sign gifts, tongues, miracles signs and wonders, healings are not active in the church today. They all served a purpose before the New Testament was available, to autheniicate the teaching of gospel. To give authority to the foundation being laid by the Apostles. Just as the miracles performed by Jesus autheniicated who He is. We have all this information and th authority attached to it in the New Testament. It needs no more authentication. And I am not saying God doesn't heal anymore but it is something we ask for. And if we get well, through whatever means, it is God healing. If He wants to perform a miracld of course He will. But these things are not meant to be a common part of our church services. Did I receive benefit, or perceived benefit when I spoke in tongues? Sure. Sometimes. But it was EMOTION and FEELINGS.

About the closest to cessationism I found in the scripture is Heb. 2:4:
"God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will. " Notice it says "with them..." meaning he excludes himself from those miraculous gifts.

Of course, how one exegetes scripture depends on one's theological presuppositions.
TD:)
 
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