The CURSE OF THE LAW

[Jethro Bodine]

well we have some saying they are keeping more and more of the law? Of course this could mean they are becoming more and more like a pharisee. The law not demand you do it better than others, or a little more every day.

Right, the SPIRIT does.

If you can not say that you are being more and more obedient to Christ in all the years you've been a Christian I would have no choice, Biblically, but to not fellowship with you.

Your doctrine is ridiculous. I'm embarrassed for you.

 

[francisdesales]

We have had two posters now that have come on this thread and admitted that they have commited adultry in the heart. That somehow they think that they have kept the commanmdment?? This is the very issue in which the Lord rebuked the pharisee! That if a man sins in heart, he has broken the law. So those who are under law, are in bongage to their sinful passions. This proves Pauls point! That the strength of sin is the law. That one must die to the law, to be set free from sin.

You seem to be forgetting over and over again that God is a merciful God - even in the OT...

The Jews broke the Law immediately. Did God end the covenant and condemn the entire race? It was within Justice to do so. That is what Paul is refering to in your constant parroting ad nauseum of the "curse of the Law". But in His mercy, God re-established the covenant with the Jews. While the dictates of Justice makes the Law a "curse" for those who break it, it doesn't follow that the Lawgiver must execute that justice. Even men can put aside justice owed them for offenses done to them!!! Time and again, we have evidence that God did NOT. Obviously, being cursed under the law does not mean what you think it does.

Furthermore, as to "no one can keep the commandments", that is patently false. Abraham, Noah, Job, Enoch, David, Daniel, Zechariah and Elizabeth and others were apparently "sinless", according to Scriptures. Considering that David was not sinless defined as "never has committed a sin", maybe you should re-evaluate the Word of God about keeping the commandments and what God desires from men.

It seems evident that God weighs men by a different standard than you do. God considers men righteous, even if they are not absolutely and utterly sinless - even before the Christ came.

In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari′ah, of the division of Abi′jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke 1:5-6

Now, do you or do you not believe that the above citation is the inspired Word of God? What does it say? Blameless before the Lord. These are people living under the Mosaic code, are they not? It appears your interpretation of Paul is mistaken.


And finally, it is those IN THE FLESH who are bound to sin, not those under the Law. The reason why someone remains "under the law" makes all the difference to whether they are bound to sin. See Luke 1:5-6

 

[francisdesales]

Well again Pauls epistles explain that the commandments produce evil desires in the flesh.

Wrong, the commandments make the evil desires KNOWN. They don't produce them. Men produce them, even BEFORE KNOWING THE LAW!!! Clearly, you are confusing natural law with the Mosaic Law. Otherwise, the Law would be evil AND holy.

If a man seeks to serve God by the written code they are in fact in the flesh.

That makes no sense. Seeking to serve God is NEVER "in the flesh". One can only serve God through faith. When one serves themselves, then they are in the flesh. Obeying external laws without internal conversion is one example of this, what is called legalism.

Furthermore, by refusing to kill people, I am in the flesh...:o Wow.

I think your theology is severely flawed. Perhaps if you could cite some Scriptures that it is based upon, we can analyze and determine where you misunderstand Paul, which apparently can lead to destruction.

 

[Mitspa]

well we have some saying they are keeping more and more of the law? Of course this could mean they are becoming more and more like a pharisee. The law not demand you do it better than others, or a little more every day.

Right, the SPIRIT does.

If you can not say that you are being more and more obedient to Christ in all the years you've been a Christian I would have no choice, Biblically, but to not fellowship with you.

Your doctrine is ridiculous. I'm embarrassed for you.

This seems a personal insult? I am not the one who claims to have issues with adultry, and therefore somehow the that justifies being under law??
Did you not know the commandment before you commited this adultry? Why then did the law not keep you from this sin?

Because the strength of sin is the law. That as long as one looks to the written code, they are yet in bondage to the desires of their flesh.
I do not mean to make this a personal issue, I am just trying to show the truth of scripture by your own testimony.

 

[Mitspa]

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.â€e 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.â€f 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.â€g 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.â€

well we have some saying they are keeping more and more of the law? Of course this could mean they are becoming more and more like a pharisee. The law not demand you do it better than others, or a little more every day. If fact one is just deceiving themselves by thinking that by looking to the written code, they are keeping any part of it.
I say that NONE who look to the written code are keeping even the first commandment!
The truth is that those who are under the written code are cursed. Now this is made most clear in the Word of God, and like that wicked Cain, who tries to offer to God, the efforts of his labor in the cursed ground. God rejects this labor and it will not be accepted before Him. But Able brings the Lamb and by faith he is righteous!
So some of you can labor in that which is cursed and think the sweat of your brow has some value, if you like? You may think you are not cursed, but you are!

I want to context of my post to be seen, so I am not accused of personal attacks.

 

[Mitspa]

Again I want to say that the issue of adultry was brought into this discussion as some evidence that the law is a tool against sin? This is a clear conflict with the gospel, and the only reason I adressed to issue at all, was to make a biblical point on sin and the law. Mitspa

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Furthermore, by refusing to kill people, I am in the flesh...:o Wow.

Amazing, itsn't it?

I wish more people would 'walk in the flesh' then.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again I want to say that the issue of adultry was brought into this discussion as some evidence that the law is a tool against sin? This is a clear conflict with the gospel, and the only reason I adressed to issue at all, was to make a biblical point on sin and the law. Mitspa

Who is this person in this forum making the case that the law is how we defeat sin?????????????????????????????????

I demand an answer.

You prove to me over and over you simply do not have ears to hear. For someone who boasts of his spirituality it's incredibly impolite, selfish, and hurtful the way you conduct yourself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Somehow you think we just know what is right, and what is wrong without any external guidance or instruction whatsoever. Argue with Paul, Mitspa...argue with Paul:

I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” (Romans 7:7 NIV)

Why did the Spirit not teach you this without having to read it here, Mitspa?

Could it be this HOW the Spirit teaches us things????? Just maybe?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”e 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”f 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”g 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

well we have some saying they are keeping more and more of the law? Of course this could mean they are becoming more and more like a pharisee. The law not demand you do it better than others, or a little more every day. If fact one is just deceiving themselves by thinking that by looking to the written code, they are keeping any part of it.
I say that NONE who look to the written code are keeping even the first commandment!
The truth is that those who are under the written code are cursed. Now this is made most clear in the Word of God, and like that wicked Cain, who tries to offer to God, the efforts of his labor in the cursed ground. God rejects this labor and it will not be accepted before Him. But Able brings the Lamb and by faith he is righteous!
So some of you can labor in that which is cursed and think the sweat of your brow has some value, if you like? You may think you are not cursed, but you are!

I want to context of my post to be seen, so I am not accused of personal attacks.

It was a very hurtful attack. Given your boasts of spirituality, why did you not know this ahead of time? This is hardly an example of upholding the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Hardly.

I don't get easily angered in these forums anymore, but I can tell you I'm shaking with anger at how you hatefully turned my honest, sincere post against me. Shame on you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do not mean to make this a personal issue, I am just trying to show the truth of scripture by your own testimony.

Too late. Because you have not been 'listening' you have hurt a brother in Christ.

Why did the Spirit within you not alert you to this ahead of time? Defend your doctrine.

 

[francisdesales]

Did you not know the commandment before you commited this adultry? Why then did the law not keep you from this sin?

Because the strength of sin is the law. That as long as one looks to the written code, they are yet in bondage to the desires of their flesh.
I do not mean to make this a personal issue, I am just trying to show the truth of scripture by your own testimony.

Clearly, reading other's posts is not your area of expertise. NO ONE has said that the Law gives anyone power to overcome sin. Quite the opposite, it is neutral, merely STATING ethical requirements.

So yet again, Mitspa drags out the strawman arguments.

Maybe you could answer this question.

Could you clarify something? It seems like you are blaming the Law for the adultery issues related on this forum. Are you serious???

"The Ten Commandments made me do it???"

Furthermore, Christians are STILL bound by the "thou shall not commit adultery". Didn't you get the email?

Who are you blaming when someone commits adultery and never heard of the Mosaic Law??? Who does PAUL blame???

 

[WIP]

I will ask that we all take a step back and take more care in what we post. This can be discussed without turning it into a brawl. After all, are we not all here to learn from our experience?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Furthermore, by refusing to kill people, I am in the flesh...:o Wow.

I feel compelled to clock out for 15 minutes from my brain surgeries to point out that, as a Protestant, the thinking is rampant among us that somehow if you purposely do something obedient it doesn't count and will be 'works' (in every negative connotation of the word) of hay, straw, and stubble, that will be burned up at the judgment (a horrible misunderstanding of 1 Cor. 3).

I struggled with this thinking for a long time, murder being the very example that exposed the lie for what it is. Somehow if I have to 'work' to restrain the desire to kill someone and am thus obedient to God that way it doesn't count, but if I'm floating two feet off the ground and am overwhelmed with a visitation of the Spirit that automatically makes me do the right thing, that way counts. That's what many believe walking by the Spirit is. Very sad doctrine in the church today. To make it worse we bludgeon each other for not obeying in that 'two feet off the ground' kind of way. Very, very misguided doctrine.

 

[childeye]

By this, I mean that the result of the Law made sin obvious and that no man
could achieve the glory of God without grace from God. In retrospect, it would
appear that the Law shows man's condition, the inability to obey it perfectly.
It is an effect, not a cause of the creation of the Law, in my opinion. God
gave the commandments to Moses and expected them to be obeyed. The Covenant was
not based on a sham, but on something men COULD do - with God's aid. "Call upon
God"...

The reason I pointed out that sin existed prior to the law was to address the placement of the terms such as cause and effect, purpose, result, prove, test, etc...and how they generate confusion and misunderstanding. Therefore I am making sin the cause of the law rather than the effect of the law even though the effect of the law was to cause sin to abound. Not that the law caused sin of course since sin was before the law, but because of the weakness of the flesh which Satan appears to loathe without pity. I think you are both saying the same thing. I therefore am left to wonder why it is that I end up agreeing with what others say even as they disagree amongst themselves over the same things I am in agreement with. Hence if I agree with you while you disagree with me, semantics, misunderstandings, are most likely the problem.

Respectfully, God in His foresight and knowledge very well could have given the law wanting it to be kept, but knowing full well we would not, nor could not keep it. That is not to say that no one ever kept the law with the spirit before christ, but rather that the doctor was sent for the sick. Consequently, God outwitting Satan need not be addressed as a sham, especially keeping in mind that Satan is a self enamored temptor and accuser who esteems no high thing. I have said this before, but it does not seem to intrigue others as much as it does me. Hebrews 2:14 is transcendent to me when discussing the subject of the law.

I agree with your conclusion, but the original problem remains, as far as WHY
did God make the Law. The answer will tell us a lot about WHO we think God is
and His attributes. Is God a God of Love Who desires to have His Love rebound
back to Him? If so, it would seem that "God created the Law to show man he was
despicable" just doesn't seem to fit together with the idea that God is Love.
Such a God is not a misleading God Who would say that the Law is not too
difficult to follow - when it was "impossible", according to some.

In my limited theological understanding I begin with a Christ that gives his all for those who appear to be unworthy of any. I am not sure what you mean by a God Who desires His Love rebound back to Him. Again, semantics. For His word shall not return void. But, he gives freely not expecting anything in return. As for the question... Why the law? I would ask that you consider what I am saying about the cross. The law sets up the cross. The cross defeated Satan and his works, amongst the manifold things the cross did. All things converge there. Looks like an ultimate plan to me.

 

[childeye]

Well again Pauls epistles explain that the commandments produce evil desires in the flesh. The written code in fact holds a person in bondage to their flesh. If a man seeks to serve God by the written code they are in fact in the flesh. But when we reckon ourselves dead to the written code, with Christ and alive to God in the Spirit, we are set free from these sinful passions. So the written code of the law, makes the flesh master over the spirit, and enslaves a mans soul to sin.

I understand what you are saying. There is nothing good in the flesh that would keep the law. So in effect the law and it's requirement of a discipline that we cannot do because we are flesh has condemned us all to death under it's provisions. Why would God want to condemn all men as sinners and worthy of death? Answer: So as to gather up in mercy. Why does God wish to gather up in mercy? Answer: So that no man may hypocritically boast of righteousness and so that sins may be forgiven.

So why does scripture say we cannot sin because his seed remains inside us? You have pointed to adultery as even looking at another woman to lust after her as a sin in the heart. If a man holds his head down as a woman walks by because he fears lusting after her, does he display the seed of Christ? Or is it that because he has the seed of Christ he is able to look upon a beautiful naked woman who is not his wife and not lust? What is the nature of this sin that lusts and what is the Truth that defeats it? And to further the point, if a man is gay and he comes to Christ, does he then cease to lust after men and become attracted to women? For we know that God gave men over to the flesh and it's lusts to become abominations. In Christ, is this reversed by some degree, or is it a situation of his grace is sufficient for thee, or both?

 

[Mitspa]

Well again Pauls epistles explain that the commandments produce evil desires in the flesh. The written code in fact holds a person in bondage to their flesh. If a man seeks to serve God by the written code they are in fact in the flesh. But when we reckon ourselves dead to the written code, with Christ and alive to God in the Spirit, we are set free from these sinful passions. So the written code of the law, makes the flesh master over the spirit, and enslaves a mans soul to sin.

I understand what you are saying. There is nothing good in the flesh that would keep the law. So in effect the law and it's requirement of a discipline that we cannot do because we are flesh has condemned us all to death under it's provisions. Why would God want to condemn all men as sinners and worthy of death? Answer: So as to gather up in mercy. Why does God wish to gather up in mercy? Answer: So that no man may hypocritically boast of righteousness and so that sins may be forgiven.

So why does scripture say we cannot sin because his seed remains inside us? You have pointed to adultery as even looking at another woman to lust after her as a sin in the heart. If a man holds his head down as a woman walks by because he fears lusting after her, does he display the seed of Christ? Or is it that because he has the seed of Christ he is able to look upon a beautiful naked woman who is not his wife and not lust? What is the nature of this sin that lusts and what is the Truth that defeats it? And to further the point, if a man is gay and he comes to Christ, does he then cease to lust after men and become attracted to women? For we know that God gave men over to the flesh and it's lusts to become abominations. In Christ, is this reversed by some degree, or is it a situation of his grace is sufficient for thee, or both?

Some very good points Childeye and thank you for seeking truth, it is a breath of fresh air. First as it relates to 1 John, one must see that John is speaking to three groups of believers. Children, young men, and fathers. He gives revelation to all three and as one grows one understands more of his epistle. For instance in the first chapter he says that all have sin. This is the same teaching as Paul, we all have the sin of the flesh. The promise of sure forgiveness is to carry the child unto the next level of growth. The young man has through the Word become "spiritual" meaning he does not consider himself as a "mere man" but a spiritual son of God.
In the spirit we are complete in Christ. As spiritual beings, we cannot sin. "Blessed is the man in whom the Lord will not impute sin" One who walks in the spirit has "reckoned himself dead indeed to sin" He sees that his flesh has been crucified with Christ and sin in the flesh has been judged in His Body.
Now before we go into the correct biblical correction of a believer, I want to see if you understand the points I have made to this point?

 

[Mitspa]

Again I want to say that the issue of adultry was brought into this discussion as some evidence that the law is a tool against sin? This is a clear conflict with the gospel, and the only reason I adressed to issue at all, was to make a biblical point on sin and the law. Mitspa

Who is this person in this forum making the case that the law is how we defeat sin?????????????????????????????????

I demand an answer.

You prove to me over and over you simply do not have ears to hear. For someone who boasts of his spirituality it's incredibly impolite, selfish, and hurtful the way you conduct yourself.

Again another personal attack! If you wish to adress me, you should lower the tone a bit. I think it is very resonable that those who posted on adultry was somehow saying that the law kept them from sin. When in fact their own words prove that according to the law they were guilty of adultry, and knew very well the commandment before they commited the sin.

So in fact these two testimonys of adultry prove that the commandments do not keep one from sin, but produces sinful desires in those who look to the written code.

THE STRENGTH OF SIN, IS THE LAW.

 

[Mitspa]

Somehow you think we just know what is right, and what is wrong without any external guidance or instruction whatsoever. Argue with Paul, Mitspa...argue with Paul:

I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” (Romans 7:7 NIV)

Why did the Spirit not teach you this without having to read it here, Mitspa?

Could it be this HOW the Spirit teaches us things????? Just maybe?

Gee jethro what was the very next point Paul makes? That the commandment produces sinful desires in the flesh, and that one must die to the law.
Which is my point and has been my point.
Now what good does it do to know what is sin, if knowing causes you to have sinful desires.

No what man needs is to die to the flesh and this requires one to die to the law.
One cannot walk in the Spirit and be looking to the written code. One must walk in "freely justified by His grace" to walk in the spirit.
Now again when one has died to the law, they know the lawful use of the law. That the purpose of the law was that man might see the sin in his own flesh. And that man might die to any and all attempts to justifiy himself by the flesh.
For the flesh can be very religious and follow rules, just as the pharisee. But this is a cursed "form of godliness"

 

[Mitspa]

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”e 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”f 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”g 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

well we have some saying they are keeping more and more of the law? Of course this could mean they are becoming more and more like a pharisee. The law not demand you do it better than others, or a little more every day. If fact one is just deceiving themselves by thinking that by looking to the written code, they are keeping any part of it.
I say that NONE who look to the written code are keeping even the first commandment!
The truth is that those who are under the written code are cursed. Now this is made most clear in the Word of God, and like that wicked Cain, who tries to offer to God, the efforts of his labor in the cursed ground. God rejects this labor and it will not be accepted before Him. But Able brings the Lamb and by faith he is righteous!
So some of you can labor in that which is cursed and think the sweat of your brow has some value, if you like? You may think you are not cursed, but you are!

I want to context of my post to be seen, so I am not accused of personal attacks.

It was a very hurtful attack. Given your boasts of spirituality, why did you not know this ahead of time? This is hardly an example of upholding the law 'love your neighbor as yourself'. Hardly.

I don't get easily angered in these forums anymore, but I can tell you I'm shaking with anger at how you hatefully turned my honest, sincere post against me. Shame on you.

Again you attack me! I was making a point about how some claim that the law keeps them from sin, but in fact it does not.

Now I can look again at your post, but I am almost sure this was your intended point?