The CURSE OF THE LAW

[Mitspa]

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”e 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”f 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”g 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

Rely? Rely on what? Using the context of the passage, what is it that Paul is saying that the works of the law are being relied on to do that results in the curse of the law?

What I know is if some christian try to observ the Law, he/she will fall under the curse of the Law, the cross will became useless (for him/her) and will be disconected from Christ.
That is enough to me for staying far away from observing the Law.

Years ago I was confronted with the overwhelming temptation to leave my wife and kids and take another man's wife (my wife knows all about it). I chose to stick with God and 'not commit adultery'. How did making the choice to do that put me under the curse of the law, rather than the blessing of obedience? It didn't disconnect me from God at all. In fact, quite the opposite. I cherish the ministry of the Spirit and that victory as a time of tremendous contact with God. It will be a special memory of God's grace and goodness and love to me the rest of my days. The Holy Spirit...my coach, my friend, the lover of my soul. Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

Yes I think you were trying to make the point that the law kept you from sinning.
When if fact it was Gods grace and love that pulled you out of your sin.
The law gave you the "sinful desire"
Grace delivered you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I know is if some christian try to observ the Law, he/she will fall under the curse of the Law, the cross will became useless (for him/her) and will be disconected from Christ.
That is enough to me for staying far away from observing the Law.

Years ago I was confronted with the overwhelming temptation to leave my wife and kids and take another man's wife (my wife knows all about it). I chose to stick with God and 'not commit adultery'. How did making the choice to do that put me under the curse of the law, rather than the blessing of obedience? It didn't disconnect me from God at all. In fact, quite the opposite. I cherish the ministry of the Spirit and that victory as a time of tremendous contact with God. It will be a special memory of God's grace and goodness and love to me the rest of my days. The Holy Spirit...my coach, my friend, the lover of my soul. Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

Are you sugesting that Paul is wrong?

I am suggesting your understanding of what brings the curse of the law is wrong. Law keeping for the purpose of being justified is what brings the curse--not any and all law keeping.

Can you see the difference between 'not coveting' because you are trying to MAKE yourself righteous in God's sight, and 'not coveting' because GOD has made you righteous through the forgiveness of your sins? The former is damnable. It is the law keeping that brings the curse. The latter is the expected obedience of having been justified by faith. It is the upholding of the law that brings the blessing.

'8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right.' (James 2:8 NIV)

"25 ...whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do." (James 1:25 NIV)

 

[Mitspa]

Well I know very well that those who look to judge themselves by the written code are cursed.
Now I have heard you try to take both sides of the fence, so I do not accept that I must now just believe what you say today and forget all the hours that you have attempted to promote the written code. So again I will continue to make biblical points and bring forth the truth. Do not ask me to approve you or your doctrines, because I must see one walk in righteousness and teach righteousness.
You may do you as you like, I have promised the mods not to correct those in error, in such a way as to break the forum rules.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What I know is if some christian try to observ the Law, he/she will fall under the curse of the Law, the cross will became useless (for him/her) and will be disconected from Christ.
That is enough to me for staying far away from observing the Law.

Years ago I was confronted with the overwhelming temptation to leave my wife and kids and take another man's wife (my wife knows all about it). I chose to stick with God and 'not commit adultery'. How did making the choice to do that put me under the curse of the law, rather than the blessing of obedience? It didn't disconnect me from God at all. In fact, quite the opposite. I cherish the ministry of the Spirit and that victory as a time of tremendous contact with God. It will be a special memory of God's grace and goodness and love to me the rest of my days. The Holy Spirit...my coach, my friend, the lover of my soul. Blessed be the Name of the Lord!

Yes I think you were trying to make the point that the law kept you from sinning.
When if fact it was Gods grace and love that pulled you out of your sin.
The law gave you the "sinful desire"
Grace delivered you.

I give you an 'F' for reading comprehension. How is it you can't see the honor and credit I'm giving to the Holy Spirit?

I know about adultery through the law (Romans 7:7).

I have the power to not commit adultery through the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:13).

I don't know how it can be made any clearer. Through the new way of the Spirit--not the old way of written words that have no power to change a person--we uphold the law (Romans 7: 6 Romans 3:31). Reliance on the old way of serving God is what brings the curse. Reliance on the new way of serving God is what brings the blessing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well I know very well that those who look to judge themselves by the written code are cursed.

Judge themselves in regard to what? Whether we're being obedient to Christ, or not?

How can a person say they are being obedient to Christ if they violate the requirements of the law? Answer the question.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well I know very well that those who look to judge themselves by the written code are cursed.

In the following passage, how does James say we can know if we are doing right?

"8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,†you are doing right." (James 2: NIV)

 

[childeye]

Well again Pauls epistles explain that the commandments produce evil desires in the flesh. The written code in fact holds a person in bondage to their flesh. If a man seeks to serve God by the written code they are in fact in the flesh. But when we reckon ourselves dead to the written code, with Christ and alive to God in the Spirit, we are set free from these sinful passions. So the written code of the law, makes the flesh master over the spirit, and enslaves a mans soul to sin.

I understand what you are saying. There is nothing good in the flesh that would keep the law. So in effect the law and it's requirement of a discipline that we cannot do because we are flesh has condemned us all to death under it's provisions. Why would God want to condemn all men as sinners and worthy of death? Answer: So as to gather up in mercy. Why does God wish to gather up in mercy? Answer: So that no man may hypocritically boast of righteousness and so that sins may be forgiven.

So why does scripture say we cannot sin because his seed remains inside us? You have pointed to adultery as even looking at another woman to lust after her as a sin in the heart. If a man holds his head down as a woman walks by because he fears lusting after her, does he display the seed of Christ? Or is it that because he has the seed of Christ he is able to look upon a beautiful naked woman who is not his wife and not lust? What is the nature of this sin that lusts and what is the Truth that defeats it? And to further the point, if a man is gay and he comes to Christ, does he then cease to lust after men and become attracted to women? For we know that God gave men over to the flesh and it's lusts to become abominations. In Christ, is this reversed by some degree, or is it a situation of his grace is sufficient for thee, or both?

Some very good points Childeye and thank you for seeking truth, it is a breath of fresh air. First as it relates to 1 John, one must see that John is speaking to three groups of believers. Children, young men, and fathers. He gives revelation to all three and as one grows one understands more of his epistle. For instance in the first chapter he says that all have sin. This is the same teaching as Paul, we all have the sin of the flesh. The promise of sure forgiveness is to carry the child unto the next level of growth. The young man has through the Word become "spiritual" meaning he does not consider himself as a "mere man" but a spiritual son of God.
In the spirit we are complete in Christ. As spiritual beings, we cannot sin. "Blessed is the man in whom the Lord will not impute sin" One who walks in the spirit has "reckoned himself dead indeed to sin" He sees that his flesh has been crucified with Christ and sin in the flesh has been judged in His Body.
Now before we go into the correct biblical correction of a believer, I want to see if you understand the points I have made to this point?

I an sorry things are getting rough for you in this forum. Thank you for responding to my post. I thank you for your pause here. I would take this time to make sure I understand. Above you have said, "in the spirit we are complete in Christ". To me, in Christ means prepared to carry my cross and forgive all tresspasses against me and return good for evil in the knowledge that we all have sin in the flesh, a pure and humble unconditional Love. Also that there is a spiritual enemy that would seek my destruction and that the Holy Spirit corrects my thoughts to guard me from the lies of Satan. Please elaborate on this as much as possible if necessary, or correct me so that I understand what you mean by "complete in Christ".

I certainly can understand that the spirit does not sin, for that spirit is what proceeds from God. "Blessed is the man in whom the Lord will not impute sin". But of course he is blessed, but why has God not imputed sin for him if other men remain cursed?

Then you say, "reckoned himself dead indeed to sin." How has he reckoned himself dead to sin because he walks in the spirit? Is Christ some sort of placebo dependent upon a man's reckoning? Would it then be accurate to say, he reckons himself dead to sin because he reckons he walks in the spirit? Perhaps you simply mean to say, he forgives others and the lust of his flesh dies in the process. Please address this.

Finally you say, He sees that his flesh has been crucified with the Christ and sin in the flesh has been judged in his body. You seem to be describing what this reckoning means. Now I read the last half. "and sin has been judged in his body". Whose body? The body Jesus walked the earth in or the sinners body, the flesh in general? For I don't see my flesh crucified with the Christ, since I was not even born yet. Therefore I must assume you are refering to the body of Christ as in the church wherein I forgive the tresspasses of others and return good for evil which afore was what I called, "in Christ" ?? Also, What do you mean by sin has been judged in his body? Do you mean to say condemned in the flesh? For the body is not judgeable other than to say it is made of dirt. I appreciate your time with this.

 

[francisdesales]

Furthermore, by refusing to kill people, I am in the flesh...:o Wow.

I feel compelled to clock out for 15 minutes from my brain surgeries to point out that, as a Protestant, the thinking is rampant among us that somehow if you purposely do something obedient it doesn't count and will be 'works' (in every negative connotation of the word) of hay, straw, and stubble, that will be burned up at the judgment (a horrible misunderstanding of 1 Cor. 3).

I always had a good laugh watching certain apologists fumble over the sola fide idea, which is not explicitly mentioned in Scriptures, except to deny it! You would think SOMEONE would just flat out say it, if THAT was the "heart of the Gospel"... And anything that speaks about "works", well, that's hypothetical...

A brave new generation of text twisters... Anything that doesn't suit their theology is explained away or ignored. Have you noticed that I have cited Luke 1:5-6 a half dozen times, but STILL, people seem to think that "no one is righteous, no one can keep the Law"... So much for respect for the Word of God when a manmade doctrine is at stake. Can't knock over the sacred cow, can we...

Yes, it is, but it is very difficult to be heard when other people don't even listen to what you said. The hope remains that some lurkers will read your posts and will see the good sense in them.

Regards

 

[Mitspa]

Well I know very well that those who look to judge themselves by the written code are cursed.

Judge themselves in regard to what? Whether we're being obedient to Christ, or not?

How can a person say they are being obedient to Christ if they violate the requirements of the law? Answer the question.

Well I keep the law through faith in Christ, and I am not under the written code. I have His commandment "to love as He loves me"
So are you claiming you keep the written code?
Because thats impossible!

 

[Mitspa]

Well I know very well that those who look to judge themselves by the written code are cursed.

In the following passage, how does James say we can know if we are doing right?

"8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right." (James 2: NIV)

I dont think the word is "right" as in "righteousness" but the word is "well" as in one is doing what is good.

The royal law is that which Christ gave as commandment. To love as He loves and that which Paul taught "love".

Now I might add that no man that judges others by a written code they do not keep themselves, is keeping that which James is speaking.

See God in His wisdom catches the hypocrite in all his attempts at hypocricy.

 

[Mitspa]

Well again Pauls epistles explain that the commandments produce evil desires in the flesh. The written code in fact holds a person in bondage to their flesh. If a man seeks to serve God by the written code they are in fact in the flesh. But when we reckon ourselves dead to the written code, with Christ and alive to God in the Spirit, we are set free from these sinful passions. So the written code of the law, makes the flesh master over the spirit, and enslaves a mans soul to sin.

I understand what you are saying. There is nothing good in the flesh that would keep the law. So in effect the law and it's requirement of a discipline that we cannot do because we are flesh has condemned us all to death under it's provisions. Why would God want to condemn all men as sinners and worthy of death? Answer: So as to gather up in mercy. Why does God wish to gather up in mercy? Answer: So that no man may hypocritically boast of righteousness and so that sins may be forgiven.

So why does scripture say we cannot sin because his seed remains inside us? You have pointed to adultery as even looking at another woman to lust after her as a sin in the heart. If a man holds his head down as a woman walks by because he fears lusting after her, does he display the seed of Christ? Or is it that because he has the seed of Christ he is able to look upon a beautiful naked woman who is not his wife and not lust? What is the nature of this sin that lusts and what is the Truth that defeats it? And to further the point, if a man is gay and he comes to Christ, does he then cease to lust after men and become attracted to women? For we know that God gave men over to the flesh and it's lusts to become abominations. In Christ, is this reversed by some degree, or is it a situation of his grace is sufficient for thee, or both?

Some very good points Childeye and thank you for seeking truth, it is a breath of fresh air. First as it relates to 1 John, one must see that John is speaking to three groups of believers. Children, young men, and fathers. He gives revelation to all three and as one grows one understands more of his epistle. For instance in the first chapter he says that all have sin. This is the same teaching as Paul, we all have the sin of the flesh. The promise of sure forgiveness is to carry the child unto the next level of growth. The young man has through the Word become "spiritual" meaning he does not consider himself as a "mere man" but a spiritual son of God.
In the spirit we are complete in Christ. As spiritual beings, we cannot sin. "Blessed is the man in whom the Lord will not impute sin" One who walks in the spirit has "reckoned himself dead indeed to sin" He sees that his flesh has been crucified with Christ and sin in the flesh has been judged in His Body.
Now before we go into the correct biblical correction of a believer, I want to see if you understand the points I have made to this point?

I an sorry things are getting rough for you in this forum. Thank you for responding to my post. I thank you for your pause here. I would take this time to make sure I understand. Above you have said, "in the spirit we are complete in Christ". To me, in Christ means prepared to carry my cross and forgive all tresspasses against me and return good for evil in the knowledge that we all have sin in the flesh, a pure and humble unconditional Love. Also that there is a spiritual enemy that would seek my destruction and that the Holy Spirit corrects my thoughts to guard me from the lies of Satan. Please elaborate on this as much as possible if necessary, or correct me so that I understand what you mean by "complete in Christ".

I certainly can understand that the spirit does not sin, for that spirit is what proceeds from God. "Blessed is the man in whom the Lord will not impute sin". But of course he is blessed, but why has God not imputed sin for him if other men remain cursed?

Then you say, "reckoned himself dead indeed to sin." How has he reckoned himself dead to sin because he walks in the spirit? Is Christ some sort of placebo dependent upon a man's reckoning? Would it then be accurate to say, he reckons himself dead to sin because he reckons he walks in the spirit? Perhaps you simply mean to say, he forgives others and the lust of his flesh dies in the process. Please address this.

Finally you say, He sees that his flesh has been crucified with the Christ and sin in the flesh has been judged in his body. You seem to be describing what this reckoning means. Now I read the last half. "and sin has been judged in his body". Whose body? The body Jesus walked the earth in or the sinners body, the flesh in general? For I don't see my flesh crucified with the Christ, since I was not even born yet. Therefore I must assume you are refering to the body of Christ as in the church wherein I forgive the tresspasses of others and return good for evil which afore was what I called, "in Christ" ?? Also, What do you mean by sin has been judged in his body? Do you mean to say condemned in the flesh? For the body is not judgeable other than to say it is made of dirt. I appreciate your time with this.

Well not sure what translation you are used to using, but thses are common KJV and Nkjv terms. Col 2:9-12

And Paul taught throughout Romans that one must "reckon" or accept as true in thought. That one has died with Christ and to the law, and to sin.

Now again the deeper things of God and freedom from the law and sin is a process of understanding.
For line must be laid upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. So to go into some of the other issues you raise would just confuse the issue you ask me about.

 

[childeye]

Well I know very well that those who look to judge themselves by the written code are cursed.

In the following passage, how does James say we can know if we are doing right?

"8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right." (James 2: NIV)

I dont think the word is "right" as in "righteousness" but the word is "well" as in one is doing what is good.

The royal law is that which Christ gave as commandment. To love as He loves and that which Paul taught "love".

Now I might add that no man that judges others by a written code they do not keep themselves, is keeping that which James is speaking.

See God in His wisdom catches the hypocrite in all his attempts at hypocricy.

Actually hypocrisy is a blindness wherein the axiom of love others as you would want to be loved is the revealing of the lies that blind. Moreover, it is just a law and without the spirit of empathy is impotent. I hope you all don't think I'm trying to teach any of you anything. Just saying.

 

[childeye]

Well not sure what translation you are used to using, but thses are common KJV and Nkjv terms. Col 2:9-12

And Paul taught throughout Romans that one must "reckon" or accept as true in thought. That one has died with Christ and to the law, and to sin.

Now again the deeper things of God and freedom from the law and sin is a process of understanding.
For line must be laid upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. So to go into some of the other issues you raise would just confuse the issue you ask me about.

That's it? Forgive me for saying, but I am somewhat disappointed. I was looking forward to learning something. I'm bumming.

 

[childeye]

So what does in Christ mean? Anybody? Someone read post #87 and provide some answers. I asked good and honest questions. You all want to teach? Well here's your chance.

 

[Mitspa]

Well not sure what translation you are used to using, but thses are common KJV and Nkjv terms. Col 2:9-12

And Paul taught throughout Romans that one must "reckon" or accept as true in thought. That one has died with Christ and to the law, and to sin.

Now again the deeper things of God and freedom from the law and sin is a process of understanding.
For line must be laid upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. So to go into some of the other issues you raise would just confuse the issue you ask me about.

That's it? Forgive me for saying, but I am somewhat disappointed. I was looking forward to learning something. I'm bumming.

So being complete and sinless "in Christ" just dont do it for you? IN CHRIST read Col 2:9-12 Again and think about as if to believe what this scripture says? It says in the mind of the Father and IN SPIRIT you have died with Christ and have been raised with Him, already! At the new birth, you came INTO CHRIST.
now the Spirit man "new man" created in Christ in righteousness and true holiness is a living fact.

But one cannot walk in the spirit man and the "flesh" at the same time. The flesh must be reckoned by the truth of scripture to have died with Christ.

Just as Noah entered the ark and escaped the judgment, likwise we must see that we have entered into Christ, through His torn body and the cross. For the whole world is under judgemnt of the law, but we have entered into the clift of the Rock.
ROCK OF AGES, CLIFT FOR ME, LET ME HIDE MYSELF IN THEE! rejoice and be glad, do not seek wisdom for wisdom sake. Seek wisdom that you might be found IN HIM, not having your own righteousness, which is by the law, but the righteousness of God through faith in Him.

 

[childeye]

Well not sure what translation you are used to using, but thses are common KJV and Nkjv terms. Col 2:9-12

And Paul taught throughout Romans that one must "reckon" or accept as true in thought. That one has died with Christ and to the law, and to sin.

Now again the deeper things of God and freedom from the law and sin is a process of understanding.
For line must be laid upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. So to go into some of the other issues you raise would just confuse the issue you ask me about.

That's it? Forgive me for saying, but I am somewhat disappointed. I was looking forward to learning something. I'm bumming.

So being complete and sinless "in Christ" just dont do it for you? IN CHRIST read Col 2:9-12 Again and think about as if to believe what this scripture says? It says in the mind of the Father and IN SPIRIT you have died with Christ and have been raised with Him, already! At the new birth, you came INTO CHRIST.
now the Spirit man "new man" created in Christ in righteousness and true holiness is a living fact.

But one cannot walk in the spirit man and the "flesh" at the same time. The flesh must be reckoned by the truth of scripture to have died with Christ.

Just as Noah entered the ark and escaped the judgment, likwise we must see that we have entered into Christ, through His torn body and the cross. For the whole world is under judgemnt of the law, but we have entered into the clift of the Rock.
ROCK OF AGES, CLIFT FOR ME, LET ME HIDE MYSELF IN THEE! rejoice and be glad, do not seek wisdom for wisdom sake. Seek wisdom that you might be found IN HIM, not having your own righteousness, which is by the law, but the righteousness of God through faith in Him.

Well at least I can count this a worthy effort on your part, despite it's lack for detail in addressing the questions I asked. Therefore I feel a little better. So, line by line, precept upon precept.

How can Paul saying, being complete and sinless "in Christ" do it for me, when I asked what does it mean to be in Christ? Should I just agree with Paul and call it understanding and knowledge? I want to know what Paul means when he says "in Christ". He is not here for me to ask him. Is it the same as what I think he means? What do you think he means? I appreciate the scripture, I think it is quite revealing about some aspects. I know the putting off of the body of sins is done without hands, and in Christ I am in the body under the Godhead. Sounds like a change of nature and desire of the will.

 

[Mitspa]

Well not sure what translation you are used to using, but thses are common KJV and Nkjv terms. Col 2:9-12

And Paul taught throughout Romans that one must "reckon" or accept as true in thought. That one has died with Christ and to the law, and to sin.

Now again the deeper things of God and freedom from the law and sin is a process of understanding.
For line must be laid upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. So to go into some of the other issues you raise would just confuse the issue you ask me about.

That's it? Forgive me for saying, but I am somewhat disappointed. I was looking forward to learning something. I'm bumming.

So being complete and sinless "in Christ" just dont do it for you? IN CHRIST read Col 2:9-12 Again and think about as if to believe what this scripture says? It says in the mind of the Father and IN SPIRIT you have died with Christ and have been raised with Him, already! At the new birth, you came INTO CHRIST.
now the Spirit man "new man" created in Christ in righteousness and true holiness is a living fact.

But one cannot walk in the spirit man and the "flesh" at the same time. The flesh must be reckoned by the truth of scripture to have died with Christ.

Just as Noah entered the ark and escaped the judgment, likwise we must see that we have entered into Christ, through His torn body and the cross. For the whole world is under judgemnt of the law, but we have entered into the clift of the Rock.
ROCK OF AGES, CLIFT FOR ME, LET ME HIDE MYSELF IN THEE! rejoice and be glad, do not seek wisdom for wisdom sake. Seek wisdom that you might be found IN HIM, not having your own righteousness, which is by the law, but the righteousness of God through faith in Him.

Well at least I can count this a worthy effort on your part, despite it's lack for detail in addressing the questions I asked. Therefore I feel a little better. So, line by line, precept upon precept.

How can Paul saying, being complete and sinless "in Christ" do it for me, when I asked what does it mean to be in Christ? Should I just agree with Paul and call it understanding and knowledge? I want to know what Paul means when he says "in Christ". He is not here for me to ask him. Is it the same as what I think he means? What do you think he means? I appreciate the scripture, I think it is quite revealing about some aspects. I know the putting off of the body of sins is done without hands, and in Christ I am in the body under the Godhead. Sounds like a change of nature and desire of the will.

Well yes, I would suggest that you do agree with Paul. To "renew" the mind? Means to bring the mind into agreement with the "new" creation. That can only happen when one becomes as a fool, and accepts the Word of God, above ones own mind and mans ways of carnal thought.

But any way, we have strayed from the topic.

 

[JCitoL]

No! the law is not in parts its every jot and tittle!
Paul intentionally points to the Ten Commandments as that which we are freed from. Rom 7:7
2 Cor 3:7 and thoughout his epistles he teaches that the 10 commandments are the strength of sin, are that they ARE NOT OF FAITH.
ALL THE LAW!
"ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW"
now ALL MEANS ALL! every jot a tittle, means every jot and tittle!

how is it possible if a human commits spiritual/religious iniquity causing harm by it to another human, and (then) there be no judgmental opposition on the part of God?! - if the "Law" is not in effect then every human could thus commit spiritual/religious iniquity

Blessings

 

[Mitspa]

No! the law is not in parts its every jot and tittle!
Paul intentionally points to the Ten Commandments as that which we are freed from. Rom 7:7
2 Cor 3:7 and thoughout his epistles he teaches that the 10 commandments are the strength of sin, are that they ARE NOT OF FAITH.
ALL THE LAW!
"ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW"
now ALL MEANS ALL! every jot a tittle, means every jot and tittle!

how is it possible if a human commits spiritual/religious iniquity causing harm by it to another human, and (then) there be no judgmental opposition on the part of God?! - if the "Law" is not in effect then every human could thus commit spiritual/religious iniquity

Blessings

Well you seem to lump "believers" justified freely by His grace, and the world who are yet under the judgment and curse of the law and that which was laid upon all men through Adam.

So not sure you have made a biblical point at all?

For the believer who is IN CHRIST, they have been set free from the law of sin and death. They have entered into New and better agreements. The law of Life in Christ.

 

[childeye]

So being complete and sinless "in Christ" just dont do it for you? IN CHRIST read Col 2:9-12 Again and think about as if to believe what this scripture says? It says in the mind of the Father and IN SPIRIT you have died with Christ and have been raised with Him, already! At the new birth, you came INTO CHRIST.
now the Spirit man "new man" created in Christ in righteousness and true holiness is a living fact.

But one cannot walk in the spirit man and the "flesh" at the same time. The flesh must be reckoned by the truth of scripture to have died with Christ.

Just as Noah entered the ark and escaped the judgment, likwise we must see that we have entered into Christ, through His torn body and the cross. For the whole world is under judgemnt of the law, but we have entered into the clift of the Rock.
ROCK OF AGES, CLIFT FOR ME, LET ME HIDE MYSELF IN THEE! rejoice and be glad, do not seek wisdom for wisdom sake. Seek wisdom that you might be found IN HIM, not having your own righteousness, which is by the law, but the righteousness of God through faith in Him.

Well at least I can count this a worthy effort on your part, despite it's lack for detail in addressing the questions I asked. Therefore I feel a little better. So, line by line, precept upon precept.

How can Paul saying, being complete and sinless "in Christ" do it for me, when I asked what does it mean to be in Christ? Should I just agree with Paul and call it understanding and knowledge? I want to know what Paul means when he says "in Christ". He is not here for me to ask him. Is it the same as what I think he means? What do you think he means? I appreciate the scripture, I think it is quite revealing about some aspects. I know the putting off of the body of sins is done without hands, and in Christ I am in the body under the Godhead. Sounds like a change of nature and desire of the will.

Well yes, I would suggest that you do agree with Paul. To "renew" the mind? Means to bring the mind into agreement with the "new" creation. That can only happen when one becomes as a fool, and accepts the Word of God, above ones own mind and mans ways of carnal thought.

But any way, we have strayed from the topic.

Thank you for your diligence to remaining on point. Indeed we have strayed. Also, I do agree with Paul according to my personal experience in my walk with Christ and my understanding of what I think he means.. So let's cut to the chase.