The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[JLB]

That is HOW we uphold Passover.

Passover did not 'vanish away'. It gets upheld when we have faith in Christ. The Feast of Unleavened Bread gets upheld, not brushed away, when the household of God's people cast out the leaven of wickedness and walk in the Spirit instead:

"7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.8 Therefore let us keep the Festival (of Unleavened Bread that immediately follows Passover), not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Corinthians 5:7-8 NIV)

This is how faith upholds the law of Moses. What 'vanished away' was the first covenant WAY of upholding the law of Moses for the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and all the rest of the literal Festivals and Sabbaths commanded by God.

The observances didn't 'go away'. The old way of fulfilling them did.

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.Galatians 4:4-11


... to redeem those who were under the law,

how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- Galatians 4:24-25

Argue with Paul!

Bondage!!!


JLB

 

[JLB]

I ask you directly and pointedly....

Does faith in Christ uphold the law of Passover and the Day of Atonement, or not?

Christ fulfilled the Passover, not us.

Again, as I said before Christ fulfilled the Passover.

Our faith is in Him as a sacrifice for our sins.

He did this on the Passover, not the day of Atonement.

 

[JLB]

Which should come to mind since it's the part of the Passover that Christ kept that he told the Church to keep after his death in remembrance of him.

Amen!

Now show me from the law of Moses where Communion was instituted on the Passover.

JLB

 

[JLB]

communion comes to mind....

Communion is a Gentile Blood Covenant ritual, that two sides partook of, signifying my blood is in you and your blood is in me and we are now of one blood, and one life.

This ritual is also done at weddings.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.Galatians 4:4-11


... to redeem those who were under the law,

how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- Galatians 4:24-25

Argue with Paul!

Bondage!!!


JLB

First off WHICH ONE OF US IN THIS THREAD HAS BEEN ADVOCATING THE LITERAL FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW OF MOSES?

See? You're still stuck in the rut of automatically thinking about the literal keeping of the ceremonial laws of Moses. That's why you're struggling with this.


Secondly, the bondage of the law is not keeping the literal Festival and Sabbath cycle if that's what you want to do. The bondage of the law is doing that FOR THE PURPOSE OF EARNING A DECLARATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Paul says you don't ensure a declaration of righteousness by doing that, but what you actually end up doing when you keep the law in order to be justified is energize the flesh all the more, bringing you into the condemnation of the law all the more.

What you are sharing here is the erroneous indoctrination about the law that so many have been taught in the church.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!" 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. 9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.Galatians 4:4-11


... to redeem those who were under the law,

how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years.

For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- Galatians 4:24-25

Argue with Paul!

Bondage!!!


JLB

Oh, also...before the moment slips away.

How is it that you insist that the 'we' that upholds the law in Romans 3:31 are the Jews, not gentiles, but can then post passages that you interpret as meaning upholding the law is to come 'under the law' again, the law Christ died to redeem believers from?

 

[JLB]

First off WHICH ONE OF US IN THIS THREAD HAS BEEN ADVOCATING THE LITERAL FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW OF MOSES?

See? You're still stuck in the rut of automatically thinking about the literal keeping of the ceremonial laws of Moses. That's why you're struggling with this.


Secondly, the bondage of the law is not keeping the literal Festival and Sabbath cycle if that's what you want to do. The bondage of the law is doing that FOR THE PURPOSE OF EARNING A DECLARATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Paul says you don't ensure a declaration of righteousness by doing that, but what you actually end up doing when you keep the law in order to be justified is energize the flesh all the more, bringing you into the condemnation of the law all the more.

What you are sharing here is the erroneous indoctrination about the law that so many have been taught in the church.

Show me from the law of Moses where Communion is instituted at Passover.

If you can't, then it is a New Testament ritual, and not part of the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Amen!

Now show me from the law of Moses where Communion was instituted on the Passover.

JLB

When Jesus breaks the bread and drinks the wine, He and his disciples are eating their Passover meal in the upper room (Luke 22:14-20). By Jesus' day the Jewish Passover is quite an elaborate observance. But the unleavened bread comes from Exodus 12:8. The wine, as far as I know, is a tradition (certainly not a gentile one) added to the observance by the Jews.

The problems your doctrine has to overcome is 1) the bread in the communion observance is the bread of the original Mosaic Passover, and 2) Jesus instructed the church via the disciples to observe this Passover tradition (1 Corinthians 11:23-26).

This is not saying the literal Passover observance per the letter of the law is to continue. What is being illustrated for you in this matter of the Passover using the scriptures is the Biblical fact that the Passover observance did not go away, the old first covenant way of fulfilling is what went away. The very thing I've been saying for umpteen pages now, but somehow you're missing it. You amaze me, man.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Communion is a Gentile Blood Covenant ritual...

I'm confident you now know how completely false this is.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now might be a good time to start exposing the erroneous doctrinal points about the law that you have been defending here in this thread--the ones the church has been propagating for a very, very long time.

First off, being 'under the law' means being under the condemnation of the law, not being required to uphold the law of Moses by faith in Christ. As I've shown, Paul PLAINLY says in more than one place that faith in Christ upholds the law of Moses, but somehow the church has come to believe and teach that 'being under the law' means having to do what the law commands as if there is something wrong with that.

Secondly, and closely connected to what I just said is, what's wrong with keeping the law is not simply keeping the law, but keeping the law for the purpose of trying to earn a declaration of righteousness by doing that. That is what is condemned by Paul, not simply keeping the law. Paul himself is an observant Jew. As our Messianic brethren will point out to you, Paul is seen observing the ceremonial law in the book of Acts. If he meant that any and all observing of the law was categorically damnable (as so many in the church believe and teach) then he is most certainly one of those damned souls.

 

[reba]

He is the passover Lamb.

 

[JLB]

I'm confident you now know how completely false this is.

You need to do some study on the subject.

The Blood covenant was a ritual long before Moses was even born.

The cutting of flesh and shedding of blood for covenant is the institution of marriage, and the very purpose of a woman's Hymen.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Now might be a good time to start exposing the erroneous doctrinal points about the law that you have been defending here in this thread--the ones the church has been propagating for a very, very long time.

First off, being 'under the law' means being under the condemnation of the law, not being required to uphold the law of Moses by faith in Christ. As I've shown, Paul PLAINLY says in more than one place that faith in Christ upholds the law of Moses, but somehow the church has come to believe and teach that 'being under the law' means having to do what the law commands as if there is something wrong with that.

Secondly, and closely connected to what I just said is, what's wrong with keeping the law is not simply keeping the law, but keeping the law for the purpose of trying to earn a declaration of righteousness by doing that. That is what is condemned by Paul, not simply keeping the law. Paul himself is an observant Jew. As our Messianic brethren will point out to you, Paul is seen observing the ceremonial law in the book of Acts. If he meant that any and all observing of the law was categorically damnable (as so many in the church believe and teach) then he is most certainly one of those damned souls.

Yes, I know you have been holding back in exposing me and the false doctrinal errors I have been teaching.

So now would be a good time for you to show us Communion from the law of Moses, since it is the current argument at hand.

You have ignored all the othe requests, so now would be a good time for you to start.

Show me from the law of Moses where the communion ritual was instituted on the day of passover.

Here is where you might begin your search.

And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it. Exodus 12:43

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You need to do some study on the subject.

The Blood covenant was a ritual long before Moses was even born.

The cutting of flesh and shedding of blood for covenant is the institution of marriage, and the very purpose of a woman's Hymen.

JLB

There are so many things in the law of Moses that were done before the law was written down, so we might as well call the whole thing 'gentile'. This adds strength to my argument that those things did not 'vanish', and vanish because they were from the law of Moses, but that what 'vanished' was the WAY the law of Moses said to do those. See the point?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, I know you have been holding back in exposing me and the false doctrinal errors I have been teaching.

So now would be a good time for you to show us Communion from the law of Moses, since it is the current argument at hand.

You have ignored all the othe requests, so now would be a good time for you to start.

Dude, I showed you!

Jesus and his disciples (where communion for the church comes from) are observing their Passover in the upper room. The unleavened bread they are eating is the unleavened bread of the Mosaic Passover observance. Didn't you read my post saying that and the references in it for you to read?

And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it. Exodus 12:43

No UNCIRCUMCISED foreigner shall eat of it. He has to be circumcised to eat it. Check it out.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What is your point anyway????

Don't you believe that we uphold the law of Moses regarding the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread when we have faith in Christ and repent of our sins? It's just one of MANY, MANY examples of how faith in Christ upholds the requirements of the law (just as Paul says faith does) not sets us free from them. What faith in Christ sets us free from is the literal WAY the law of Moses said to uphold the requirements of the law.

 

[Deborah13]

You see what the church says is, "I know it's wrong to commit adultery" (for example), "but I'm not under the law anymore because salvation is by grace alone." They, in effect, rationalize sin by this terribly distorted doctrine of law that grips the church these days, not knowing that if one's faith does not uphold this law of Moses you have a faith that can not save you.

You know, I have never heard any pastor in a church or on TV ever says anything like what you say here.....

"You see what the church says is, "I know it's wrong to commit adultery" (for example), "but I'm not under the law anymore because salvation is by grace alone."

Even the grace preachers that I listen to never say that one is saved by "grace alone", it is always "by grace, through faith". And there is a balance between grace and faith.
Can you name one preacher that is fairly well known or a church denomination or a church website that says what you are saying? Because I want to check them out.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is not about what a particular ministry is saying as a matter of some kind of formal CD set or something like that. This is about the popular thinking in the church today that says, "since salvation is so utterly by grace (applied to us through our faith) that it doesn't matter what we do or don't do, we're still saved, so don't bother me with an argument about what the law says. We're not 'under' the law anymore, we're under grace now." Not understanding that justification most certainly is utterly disconnected from works, but that works are still how we are condemned.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you really want a formal sermon series about the subject I think gr8grace has links to those.

 

[Deborah13]

Maybe you can understand the concept of an 'account' better in regard to sin guilt.



Colossians 2 talks to this debt of sin. And as I say, it's easier to understand how we all have a figurative 'account' where the debt of our sin is recorded. But, as you know, that account is swept clean and righteousness is credited to that account instead.

I don't know if the original language is meant to speak directly to the concept of banking, but it does seem God gives us a line of credit of righteousness, a measure of righteousness so to speak, by the Holy Spirit. Our hope is to gain all of the righteousness of God at the appearing of Christ when sinful flesh will be completely gone and the fullness of the Spirit will be ours. That is the hope of the believer.



'Counted'...an accounting. Don't you agree?




What you and I don't have to uphold is the literal way of the first covenant. That is what got set aside by faith in Christ. But faith most certainly upholds the first covenant's requirements for temple, sacrifice, and priesthood, and Festival gathering, and Sabbaths. Hebrews clearly teaches us this. It's just that we do that in the new way of the New Covenant, as Hebrews teaches.

The requirements of the first covenant for those things themselves remain and get upheld in this New Covenant. Some think it's not appropriate to call those remaining requirements the requirements of the law (as in 'law of Moses'), but the Bible does, so I ask, "why can't we"?

accounted, counted, reckoned...."I'm counting on you."
I don't say that you are wrong but I just don't think of it quite the same.
If someone says, " I'm counting on you." That's because they are trusting that person, they believe that person is faithful to them. In affect it is as though they see that person as having a right (righteous) attitude towards them.
I see that Jesus is my Advocate (attorney) with the Father. If I am smart I listen to my attorney. His job is to tell me what I need to do to win. So I messed up, I go to my attorney and I tell Him the truth. He gives me truthful and saving instructions for my benefit and the benefit of others in my life. He gets the glory because I say, "Hey you're in trouble, go meet with my attorney, He'll save you when no one else can."
So I can "count on Jesus", I know He is righteous, right in all He does and keeps His Word.
If I am faithful to Him, then He counts my faithfulness as righteousness. It's maybe like when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac and God said, "Now I Know".