The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[Jethro Bodine]

accounted, counted, reckoned...."I'm counting on you."
I don't say that you are wrong but I just don't think of it quite the same.
If someone says, " I'm counting on you." That's because they are trusting that person, they believe that person is faithful to them. In affect it is as though they see that person as having a right (righteous) attitude towards them.
I see that Jesus is my Advocate (attorney) with the Father. If I am smart I listen to my attorney. His job is to tell me what I need to do to win. So I messed up, I go to my attorney and I tell Him the truth. He gives me truthful and saving instructions for my benefit and the benefit of others in my life. He gets the glory because I say, "Hey you're in trouble, go meet with my attorney, He'll save you when no one else can."
So I can "count on Jesus", I know He is righteous, right in all He does and keeps His Word.
If I am faithful to Him, then He counts my faithfulness as righteousness. It's maybe like when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac and God said, "Now I Know".

I don't see how, Biblically, we do the 'counting', or accounting (at least not in the sense of being credited something). I see where the Bible says God credits something to us. God gives us righteousness in an account, figuratively speaking of course, where there was none before. And it's in the sense of a line of credit of righteousness, for Paul talks about the Holy Spirit, the very essence of righteousness, being a deposit that is made in us. So I see what the Bible means by 'credited to us' as being represented in number four in the definition of the word 'credit' in this link: https://www.google.com/search?q=credit definition&rlz=1C1_____enUS465US465&oq=credit definition&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.4304j0j8&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

#4 describes to me what the Bible is talking about when God gives us a legal declaration of righteousness. And he gives us the down payment of the Holy Spirit like an opening line of credit in keeping with the promise of a righteousness we will be given at the Judgment.

 

[JLB]

Dude, I showed you!

Jesus and his disciples (where communion for the church comes from) are observing their Passover in the upper room. The unleavened bread they are eating is the unleavened bread of the Mosaic Passover observance. Didn't you read my post saying that and the references in it for you to read?




No UNCIRCUMCISED foreigner shall eat of it. He has to be circumcised to eat it. Check it out.

Show me in the law of Moses. That means the book of Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy or Numbers, Chapter and verse where it states that Communion is to be instituted at the Passover.

If you yourself can not show me Chapter and verse from Moses law where Communion is instituted and required according to the law of Moses, then you are teaching falsely that Christians are required to uphold the law of Moses by partaking of Communion.

Get cracking!

Or you are guilty of teaching false doctrine.


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

You're not following the point we're addressing very well. If you were you would not have said this.

My argument is, faith in Christ upholds the requirements for the Festival cycle and everything else in the law whether the person who has faith realizes it or not.

Now, how is that elevating those things over faith in God?

Me thinks you're still thinking in the vein of the literal law of Moses...the old WAY of fulfilling those things. But that is how the church is conditioned to think when it comes to any discussion about the law because of the way she's been so thoroughly indoctrinated about the law, and which blinds the eyes of so many to the truth and causes them to say "I'm not under the law anymore, salvation is by faith alone, so don't talk to me about what the law says."

"31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:31 NIV)

Do you want to argue with Paul?

Paul is on my side.
1Cr 10:23

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

What you fail to grasp is that the requirements for the festival cycle and everything else in the law have absolutely no salvational value to us without faith in God, because we are already tainted by sin and forever unable to save ourselves. The only thing that gives meaning and validation to any attributes of the law as being worthy pursuits is faith in God, so that faith is the foundation, while the structure of the law emerges from faith, and it's application reflects what faith tells us of God's expectations of His People. The weaker the faith, the more one will seek to bolster it with legal requirements (beyond love God and love others as yourself) that they believe they can fulfill.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Show me in the law of Moses. That means the book of Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy or Numbers, Chapter and verse where it states that Communion is to be instituted at the Passover.

If you yourself can not show me Chapter and verse from Moses law where Communion is instituted and required according to the law of Moses, then you are teaching falsely that Christians are required to uphold the law of Moses by partaking of Communion.

Get cracking!

Or you are guilty of teaching false doctrine.


JLB

Lol. No, I'm not teaching "that Christians are required to uphold the law of Moses by partaking of Communion."

I'll say it again. Your fundamental problem is you can only think of the law of Moses in regard to it's literal commands for worship. That's all you can hear as soon as someone says the word 'law'. And you've been taught, erroneously, that where Paul talks about 'having to keep all the law' that means if you're going to purposely seek to do anything in the law of Moses you are now obligated to do everything in the law of Moses.

Everything you hear is immediately filtered through this indoctrination that got saddled on the church. This indoctrination makes you think that the person who brought the subject up is trying to make you and everybody else keep the literal worship laws of the first covenant. It's ridiculous, but I know why it's this way, and why it's so hard to break the power of that indoctrination gripping the minds of so many in the church.


Remember, what started this is the passage in 1 Corinthians 5 where Paul explains how the church upholds the requirements for Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And he shows how we do that, not in the way of the letter of the law, but in the new WAY of faith in Jesus Christ and repentance from sin. But because of the power of the indoctrination I just spoke about, what's right there in black and white doesn't make a dent in your understanding. It gets filtered out and you continue in the rut of your indoctrinated thinking that can only think in terms of keeping the literal first covenant observances.

Then Reba reminded us how the bread in the Communion that Jesus told the Church through the disciples to do in remembrance of him is actually the bread of the Passover observance...the Passover observance the church is so sure not only passed away but can not be observed in any way shape or form or you bring yourself into bondage and the damnation of the law. How ridiculous. Why would Christ tell us to do something that would do that?

I myself make the point to Messianics that the wine, as far as I know, is not an element of the original letter of the law Passover observance. So you can be sure I'm not saying the Church has to keep the literal law of Passover. The point is, Jesus shows us 1) it's not damnable to purposely do something from the law (he tells us to take the Passover bread), and 2) this doctrine that says 'if you're going to keep any of the law for any reason you have to keep the whole law' is just plain false.

Now, put your fear away that I'm trying to bring you and the Church back into the first covenant worship observances (the WAY of the law of Moses), lol, and start listening to what I'm saying.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you fail to grasp is that the requirements for the festival cycle and everything else in the law have absolutely no salvational value to us without faith in God, because we are already tainted by sin and forever unable to save ourselves.

Ah, yes, true to form as expected. The indoctrination of the church tells everybody that any and all discussion about the law means you're insisting that salvation is by keeping the law.

Let me edit what you said so you'll see clearly that what I'm defending has nothing to do with the law being how a person is saved:

"What you fail to grasp is that the requirements for the festival cycle and everything else in the law have absolutely no salvational value..."

You need not say any more. The law has no value toward justification. Period. This is not a discussion about us having to keep the literal Festival cycle to be saved. But I know that it will be hard for you to see that. How you are getting that out of what I've been saying is beyond me.

The only thing that gives meaning and validation to any attributes of the law as being worthy pursuits is faith in God, so that faith is the foundation, while the structure of the law emerges from faith, and it's application reflects what faith tells us of God's expectations of His People. The weaker the faith, the more one will seek to bolster it with legal requirements (beyond love God and love others as yourself) that they believe they can fulfill.

Now tell me what legal requirements I've been saying everybody has to keep. I've made it plainly clear that this is not about keeping the letter of the law observances. But, as I say, I understand why you can only hear it that way.

I will give you credit for seeing that a person can keep some of the law, and because they have faith in God. You're one up on a lot of folk. Perhaps you understand that it is the effort of trying to be justified by the law that requires a person to keep ALL of it.

 

[JLB]

Lol. No, I'm not teaching "that Christians are required to uphold the law of Moses by partaking of Communion."

I'll say it again. Your fundamental problem is you can only think of the law of Moses in regard to it's literal commands for worship. That's all you can hear as soon as someone says the word 'law'.

Your fundamental problem is your have decided to take it upon yourself, as if you yourself were the Lawgiver, to dismantle the law of Moses to be something other that what is was given to be.

The law of Moses is not just the 10 commandments.

the righteousness OF the law, is Love God and Love your neighbor, however that was not the whole law given to the children of Israel.

JLB

 

[JLB]

The people of Canada are not under Obama-care.

The people of the United States are under Obama-care.

A person in Canada whose father is a doctor doesn't get prescribed some "medicine" for a lifetime a of "treatment that will not cure the disease but treat the disease for life.

The person in Canada whose father is a doctor, who is not "under" Obama-care, gets cured for life, by the right prescription,that comes from the Father, who is the Doctor, whom she has a relationship with.


The people in Canada are not "under" Obama-care.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Your fundamental problem is your have decided to take it upon yourself, as if you yourself were the Lawgiver, to dismantle the law of Moses to be something other that what is was given to be.

You mean like what Jesus did with the Passover celebration?

The law of Moses is not just the 10 commandments.

And so because I think this that's why I've been citing other things from the law that get upheld by faith, right?

the righteousness OF the law, is Love God and Love your neighbor, however that was not the whole law given to the children of Israel.

And Paul says when we do that (love God/neighbor) we fulfill and uphold all the other laws Moses gave to the children of Israel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The people of Canada are not under Obama-care.

The people of the United States are under Obama-care.

A person in Canada whose father is a doctor doesn't get prescribed some "medicine" for a lifetime a of "treatment that will not cure the disease but treat the disease for life.

The person in Canada whose father is a doctor, who is not "under" Obama-care, gets cured for life, by the right prescription,that comes from the Father, who is the Doctor, whom she has a relationship with.


The people in Canada are not "under" Obama-care.


JLB

Wonderful. But what does this have to do with the Biblical fact that when gentiles have faith in Christ and love God/neighbor they fulfill everything in the law of Moses that God delivered to the children of Israel?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And, please, don't forget to address this:

<a href="http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...ing-his-comandments.50030/page-21#post-857630">The Law, works and keeping his comandments</a>

Your contentions about the law only being for Jews will make more sense if you can straighten out the contradiction in your doctrine about the matter.

 

[JLB]

Wonderful. But what does this have to do with the Biblical fact that when gentiles have faith in Christ and love God/neighbor they fulfill everything in the law of Moses that God delivered to the children of Israel?

Chapter and verse please. That shows when gentiles have faith in Christ and love God/neighbor they fulfill everything in the law of Moses that God delivered to the children of Israel?[

 

[JLB]

Wonderful. But what does this have to do with the Biblical fact that when gentiles have faith in Christ and love God/neighbor they fulfill everything in the law of Moses that God delivered to the children of Israel?

Sorry Brother,

Having faith in Christ for salvation, does not exempt you from literally loving your neighbor.

Having faith in Christ for salvation, does not exempt you from lying. You yourself have to literally not lie.

Loving your neighbor does not = stone your neighbor to death for not keeping the sabbath. The law of Moses requires you to stone your neighbor for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

Having faith in Christ does not exempt you from not having adultery, you yourself have to literally "not commit adultery".


JLB

 

[JLB]

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-25


Show me where in these verse's where the Law of Moses comes in to play.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Salvation.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Righteousness.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Justification.

The Law of Moses plays no part in being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Let's uncomplicate the whole thing and find out what the law of Moses has to do with us.

Let's just check off all the things that the law of Moses does not have to do with, THEN let's talk about the only thing that the law DOES have to do with.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Chapter and verse please. That shows when gentiles have faith in Christ and love God/neighbor they fulfill everything in the law of Moses that God delivered to the children of Israel?[

Here it is again...

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:14 NASB

And here is the last example provided to you to illustrate it:
"...Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Corinthians 5:7-8 NASB)

Here we see the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread being fulfilled by faith and obedience in Christ. Not in the old way of the first covenant, but in the new way of the New Covenant. The exact things I've been saying.

You either see it, or you don't. I'm not going to break my back helping you to see it anymore.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry Brother,

Having faith in Christ for salvation, does not exempt you from literally loving your neighbor.

Having faith in Christ for salvation, does not exempt you from lying. You yourself have to literally not lie.

Having faith in Christ does not exempt you from not having adultery, you yourself have to literally "not commit adultery".


JLB

The old way of 'keeping' these things is by way of the old 'way' of written letter, meaning the powerlessness of mere written words alone. The new 'way' we keep these literal commands is through the power and aid of the Holy Spirit impressing those words on our hearts and enabling us to keep them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Loving your neighbor does not = stone your neighbor to death for not keeping the sabbath. The law of Moses requires you to stone your neighbor for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

This is the old WAY of the law of Moses, the thing I've been saying 'vanished away'. But the requirement to die for not entering into God's appointed Sabbath Rest still stands--the new 'way' we do that being faith in Jesus Christ and being filled with the Holy Spirit. But the penalty of death still stands for not doing that. Do you want to argue the point?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-25

Show me where in these verse's where the Law of Moses comes in to play.

'Apart from the law'

A way to be declared righteous apart from doing the works of the law of Moses has been revealed--the way Abraham was declared righteous, by believing in the promise of a Son, not by doing righteous things.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Salvation.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Righteousness.

The Law of Moses plays no part in Justification.

The Law of Moses plays no part in being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Let's uncomplicate the whole thing and find out what the law of Moses has to do with us.

If you would just calm down and 'listen' to what I'm saying--Paul says when we have faith in Christ and obey according to the fruit of the Spirit the law of Moses gets upheld, not torn down.

Let's just check off all the things that the law of Moses does not have to do with, THEN let's talk about the only thing that the law DOES have to do with.

JLB

If you would just stop hearing the argument as 'faith in Christ has to keep the law', and start hearing what the argument actually is, 'faith in Christ does not violate the requirements of the law'. But I know you won't ever get it as long as you continue in the doctrinal rut of only being able to understand the law of Moses in terms of it's literal worship laws.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I hope you are busy crafting your answer to this:

<a href="http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...ing-his-comandments.50030/page-21#post-857630">The Law, works and keeping his comandments</a>

 

[JLB]

Here it is again...

14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:14 NASB

And here is the last example provided to you to illustrate it:
"...Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.8 Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." (1 Corinthians 5:7-8 NASB)

Here we see the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread being fulfilled by faith and obedience in Christ. Not in the old way of the first covenant, but in the new way of the New Covenant. The exact things I've been saying.

You either see it, or you don't. I'm not going to break my back helping you to see it anymore.

The whole law is a reference to the Torah, which includes Genesis.

The law and the Prophets is more that just the law of Moses that was given to the children of Israel.

7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Corinthians 5:7-8

As I said , Christ fulfilled the Passover. He was indeed sacrificed for us. We are to live a life that is without sin, free from malice and wickedness, with sincerity and truth, as Abraham did.

The Truth is these are God's Laws that Abraham walked in, 430 years before the law of Moses.

The Truth is Gods Laws were seen, made manifest, brought to light, and made known through the law of Moses. These laws were always in the earth from Adam until Moses.

What was also in the law of Moses were sacrifices of animals, special feast days, food laws, special Sabbath requirements, special priesthood requirements, as well as laws for putting to death those that violated.

The whole law of Moses incorporated these law and ordinances.

We can not separate the one from the other, unless the whole law has been changed and set aside.

The things in the law that point us to a righteous lifestyle, we are to take heed to, though the whole law was added until Christ, and has been fulfilled by Him and has been set aside and has vanished away.

However, when someone has a nature that does the things in the law, without ever been instructed in the law, they show that they themselves are a law unto themselves, NOT BEING UNDER THE LAW, but having the nature of God and His Laws written in their mind and on their heart, they in fact are walking in a righteousness APART FROM THE LAW.

APART FROM THE LAW.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If you would just calm down and 'listen' to what I'm saying--Paul says when we have faith in Christ and obey according to the fruit of the Spirit the law of Moses gets upheld, not torn down.

Please show the scripture.

The fruit of the spirit, against such there is NO LAW.

The scripture says NO LAW.

You say the law of Moses.

I believe scripture.