The Law, works and keeping his comandments

[Jethro Bodine]

13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. Hebrews 8:13

When in your opinion, will the old covenant disappear, if not at the cross?


JLB

It's already gone.

The old covenant of temple, priesthood and sacrifice was laid aside in favor of a NEW Covenant of Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice.

But this New Covenant of Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice still upholds the requirements of law found in the law of Moses, not destroys them. The Priesthood we've just been talking about being a good example of that.

Look at the requirements for the High Priest and the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16, then compare them to Hebrews 9. You'll see that Jesus did not lay aside or destroy those Priestly duties and that Holy Day. He upheld them. And he upheld them in the way of the New Covenant, not the old way of the first covenant.

Through Christ the requirements of the law of Moses are upheld, but the way they are upheld has changed. The requirements didn't change, the way the requirements are satisfied has changed. It's the difference between one covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice and how we worship and serve God and satisfy the requirements of the law, and another Covenant of Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice and how we worship and serve God, not the introduction of new requirements of law as is so popularly taught in our churches (which is taught in order to rationalize various freedoms from requirements of the law, but that's another subject).

 

[JLB]

Yes, this is the argument of our Messianic brethren. They use it to defend their doctrine that the literal keeping of the law of Moses did not go away. Which is funny because I'm confident that you do not want to make that argument.

Destroying the law, even if it does mean not properly interpreting the law, would result in not upholding the law. Jesus' point being he did not come to 'not' uphold the requirements of the law. He came to uphold them. But at the same time, as a direct result of doing that (satisfying the law, not destroying it) various things would 'disappear' from the law--the laws surrounding the literal temple and priesthood and it's sacrifices (the first covenant) being those laws.

The point is, there is no need for you to continue saying the law is not been destroyed, as the meaning of His use of this word does not carry the meaning that you are contending for.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

qurstion. the shabat isn't obligatory for the Christian nor circumcision. per acts 15. so yay or nay on those?

The obligation of literal Mosaic law--the way of doing those things--is gone. A new way of doing those things has appeared and made the literal way obsolete. But the requirement for rest and circumcision remains.

As I know you well know (which I'm sharing for the sake of others), when you believe in Christ, you get circumcised in heart (circumcised in regard to the flesh, the sin nautre), and enter into God's Rest (rest from the sin nature), all by the Spirit of God, and all in conformance with the requirements of law, but accomplished in the new way of the New Covenant, not in the old way of the old covenant.

I would be surprised if JLB disagreed with any part of what I just said.

 

[jasoncran]

ok that's what I thought. I had to ask. that is what I say. they both allude to the heart. moses said that. "circumcise the foreskin of your heart and be ye no more stiffnecked".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The point is, there is no need for you to continue saying the law is not been destroyed, as the meaning of His use of this word does not carry the meaning that you are contending for.

JLB

Yes, I understand. You've made it clear you do not defend the 'abolishment' of the law (though I'm fairly certain that you used to use that term in our early discussions).

There are many in the church who do say the law was abolished meaning it 'ended' and are, therefore, not subject to it's requirements anymore. They fail to recognize the difference between not having to do various literal ways of the law, and upholding the requirements of the law. And again I say they go down this path whenever you start talking about obedience. But that's the stuff of another thread, lol.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have made the Christian walk about upholding the law of Moses.

Faith in Christ is all about upholding the requirements of the law of Moses. People instantly reject that statement because they have been conditioned to automatically hear that as 'I have to keep a literal Sabbath', or 'that would be trying to be led by written words instead of the Spirit', or 'that would be trying to be justified by works of the law'.

But if people would just listen to what the Bible teaches they could see that upholding the law of Moses means upholding the requirements of the law of Moses in the new way of faith in Christ, and his work on the cross.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

ok that's what I thought. I had to ask. that is what I say. they both allude to the heart. moses said that. "circumcise the foreskin of your heart and be ye no more stiffnecked".

Which is a good point.

Some people say what we have is a 'new' law (the 'old' one having passed away, or abolished--depending on what you've been taught). But we can plainly see even 'be circumcised in heart' is actually a requirement of the law of Moses. Just as people may erroneously think Jesus' Priestly work is somehow a 'new' law, but as I've shown is really the keeping of the 'old' law, not the doing away of it.

No 'new' law folks. Just a new way to uphold it.

 

[jasoncran]

people died and were judged by god for not honoring god on the shabat, which wasn't about the day but the command to worship him on a day he choose would the day. so shall men be judged for not honoring god on any day in the final judgement.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, judged and sentenced to death because they failed to 'keep' the time and appearing of God's appointed Rest, Jesus Christ by having faith in Jesus Christ and entering into His Rest. The literal Sabbath being but a shadow and type of that Rest, and the judgment regarding the not keeping of that Rest.

 

[JLB]

It's already gone.

Through Christ the requirements of the law of Moses are upheld,

The law of Moses foreshadowed the sacrifice of Christ.

Through the sacrifice of Christ, the requirements of the law of Moses were nailed to the cross.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14

The old covenant of temple, priesthood and sacrifice was laid aside in favor of a NEW Covenant of Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice.

Laid aside?

It's already gone.

Look at the requirements for the High Priest and the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 16, then compare them to Hebrews 9. You'll see that Jesus did not lay aside or destroy those Priestly duties and that Holy Day. He upheld them. And he upheld them in the way of the New Covenant, not the old way of the first covenant.

Again, Gentiles do not uphold the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[reba]

Are we not all one in Christ?

Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

[JLB]

Which is a good point.

Some people say what we have is a 'new' law (the 'old' one having passed away, or abolished--depending on what you've been taught). But we can plainly see even 'be circumcised in heart' is actually a requirement of the law of Moses. Just as people may erroneously think Jesus' Priestly work is somehow a 'new' law, but as I've shown is really the keeping of the 'old' law, not the doing away of it.

No 'new' law folks. Just a new way to uphold it.

What came first, Jethro, The Temple in Heaven or The Temple on Earth?

You keep making everything about the Law of Moses when the law of Moses is about the Spiritual reality of Christ, not the other way around.

The physical temporary things in the Law of Moses, pointed to Heavenly Things THAT ALREADY EXISTED BEFORE MOSES WAS BORN!

We do not uphold the law of Moses.

Adam walked with God in the cool of the day in fellowship.

Adam was to learn directly from God in relationship.

That is what God created.

That is what God designed.

That is God's intent for mankind.

You are telling us everything is about the law of Moses, when the law of Moses made no provision for relationship with God.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The law of Moses foreshadowed the sacrifice of Christ.

Through the sacrifice of Christ, the requirements of the law of Moses were nailed to the cross.

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:13-14

Did the Priestly requirements of Leviticus 16 get nailed to the cross, or were they fulfilled by the cross?

I can see where the debt of law for that Day got nailed to the cross. IOW, not only the old way that Day was to be upheld got nailed to the cross with Jesus, but it no longer being able to condemn us for not keeping it, nor hold us in bondage to it's never-ending demand for fulfillment (because it never took away the sin nature) getting nailed, too. Which dovetails nicely with what Paul says next there in Colossians 2, don't you agree?

Laid aside?

Well, we both agree the law of Moses did not get abolished, right? The book of Hebrews talks about the literal temple, priesthood, and sacrifices being 'laid aside'. The things that old way sought to fulfill (satisfy), is now fulfilled (satisfied, upheld) through a NEW Covenant of Temple, Priesthood, and Sacrifice. Do you disagree with that? If you do, ask yourself, "what went away, the requirement for those things or the way those requirements get met?"

Again, Gentiles do not uphold the law of Moses.

So when Christ satisfied (not abolished) the law concerning the Day of Atonement and the Priestly duties of that Day, did he do that only for Jews? Are the requirements of that Holy Day only upheld by faith in Christ's work for believing Jews, and not for believing gentiles?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are we not all one in Christ?

Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Yes, we are all one in Christ.

My faith in Christ lays hold of His fulfillment of the requirements of the law of Moses (not abolishes them) just as much as a Jew's faith in Christ lays hold of that fulfillment.

Faith--for whoever has it--upholds the requirements of the law of Moses.

 

[JLB]

Did the Priestly requirements of Leviticus 16 get nailed to the cross, or were they fulfilled by the cross?

So when Christ satisfied (not abolished) the law concerning the Day of Atonement and the Priestly duties of that Day, did he do that only for Jews? Or are the requirements of that Holy Day only upheld by faith in Christ's work for believing Jews?

23 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 24 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a Sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. 25 You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.' " 26 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27 "Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28 And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30 And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. 31 You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. Leviticus 23:23-31

In your own words please explain what this means to us today and how it was fulfilled in Christ.


Thanks JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Going out to feed the hog....be back later.

 

[JLB]

Going out to feed the hog....be back later.

What kind you got?

We run Hampshire's and Durock.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

23 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 24 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a Sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. 25 You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.' " 26 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 27 "Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to the Lord. 28 And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the Lord your God. 29 For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. 30 And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. 31 You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. Leviticus 23:23-31

In your own words please explain what this means to us today and how it was fulfilled in Christ.


Thanks JLB

I'll be glad to do that.

It'll have to wait though.

Meanwhile, ask yourself how Christ on a cross can satisfy these requirements.

Think in terms of fundamental requirements, not literal law. Just as we know to do that in regard to Christ's blood being accepted by God as the payment of blood the law of Moses says we owe God for sin.

If you want to argue that non-literal law 'upholding' is NOT upholding the law of Moses (I've been expecting this argument) just remember how Christ's blood is a non-literal fulfillment of the law of Moses, but a fulfillment of the law of Moses, nonetheless.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What kind you got?

We run Hampshire's and Durock.

Lol, actually I have six ducks.

'Feed the hog*' is an expression I use for 'the work I gotta do around the place'.

Actually, I'm getting ready to do a garbage run.

(*It's also a loose reference to a line in 'Christmas Vacation')

 

[JLB]

I'll be glad to do that.

It'll have to wait though.

Meanwhile, ask yourself how Christ on a cross can satisfy these requirements.

Think in terms of fundamental requirements, not literal law. Just as we know to do that in regard to Christ's blood being accepted by God as the payment of blood the law of Moses says we owe God for sin.

If you want to argue that non-literal law 'upholding' is NOT upholding the law of Moses (I've been expecting this argument) just remember how Christ's blood is a non-literal fulfillment of the law of Moses, but a fulfillment of the law of Moses, nonetheless.

I think you meant to refer to the Passover, rather than the Day of Atonement.

Remember Atone means to cover whereas the blood of Jesus cleanses and removes.


JLB