The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[Eventide]

Here's the next paragraph.. it gets worse.. lol

The basis of God's election is a mystery only known to God. We may not understand how it can be that He is able to elect some while passing by others. But rest assured, everything that God has decided to do is perfect and righteous because He makes no mistakes. Some say that this paints a picture of a God that is capricious and unjust. But this view overlooks the fact that if all humanity received what is just from God, then all would be condemned to eternal death in hell. God is under no obligation to save anyone. His shows mercy by choosing to save some condemned to death.

Again.. it's no wonder some can't admit to it..

 

[Eventide]

But wait, there's more...

God's election is necessary because of the total depravity of human nature. Every son and daughter of Adam is an ungodly sinner; an enemy of God. None of us have within our nature the desire to choose good and reject evil. All stand guilty before God, deserving of His wrath.

The fragrance is overwhelming isn't it..

 

[Hitch]

Any others here care to DENY that Calvinism teaches UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and that THAT IS its basis.. ?

Why else would they call it UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION ?

I know, I'd be ashamed to admit it too..

From post #17


and open for any one literate, that I embrace the doctrine spoken of, namely unconditional election.


Are you lying intentionally or just incredibly dense?

Perhaps you cant understand 'embrace' as used above in red?



All three maybe?

 

[Eventide]

Next time a Calvinist mentions the 'elect' in one of their threads.. ask them what the BASIS is for them being the elect.

 

[Hitch]

Re: The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

Originally Posted by Eventide
Any others here care to DENY that Calvinism teaches UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and that THAT IS its basis.. ?

Why else would they call it UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION ?

I know, I'd be ashamed to admit it too..



​

From post #17

and open for any one literate, that I embrace the doctrine spoken of, namely unconditional election.


Are you lying intentionally or just incredibly dense?

Perhaps you cant understand 'embrace' as used above in red?



All three maybe?​

 

[Eventide]

Next time a Calvinist mentions the 'elect' in one of their threads.. ask them what the BASIS is for them being the elect.

Of course some are just not man enough to admit it..

 

[Christ_empowered]

I skimmed over this one and I'm going to jump in because...well, largely because I'm a bit bored at the moment. Also, I was raised Calvinist and it has stuck with me, so I hate to see my belief system attacked.

Listen, if you're part of the Elect, you are part of the Elect because God was kind enough to choose you for Salvation, and in doing so God shows his grace and mercy. God doesn't withhold salvation from some people b/c he's some sort of Presbyterian monster who enjoys sending people to Hell. No, no--mankind sank into sin ("total depravity") with the sin of Adam and Eve. We are born into sin, we are sinful and devious through and through, and it takes a miracle to get a human, any human, to "see the light" and come to Jesus. The Elect are those who receive this miracle.

Please keep in mind that being Elect doesn't really mean you're special. I mean, yes, you're part of God's family and that's the coolest thing ever, but God doesn't choose His Elect based on merit or good works. He selects us so that we may then "work out our salvation with fear and trembling," doing good works, living upright lives in our communities, and being salt and light unto the Earth.

What I think really bothers a lot of people about Calvinism, especially in this day and age when we're taught that "God is love" (very true, but now how we think of it) and that we "choose" our own paths and that people are basically good, is that Calvinism teaches that humans are sinful and depraved and it takes an act of God to get us to become at least somewhat more godly. People are not good, people do not have total free will (our free will is conditioned by our sin state; only the Elect, less bound by their sin state, are truly "free," and even then we're slaves of righteousness), and we do not choose God--God chooses us, and we are to respond to Him with all the love and reverence due a loving creator God who has chosen to save us from sin, Satan, and death.

Have a nice day.

 

[Hitch]

Of course some are just not man enough to admit it..

Re: The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

Originally Posted by Eventide

Any others here care to DENY that Calvinism teaches UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and that THAT IS its basis.. ?

Why else would they call it UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION ?

I know, I'd be ashamed to admit it too..

​

From post #17

and open for any one literate, that I embrace the doctrine spoken of, namely unconditional election.


Are you lying intentionally or just incredibly dense?

Perhaps you cant understand 'embrace' as used above in red?



All three maybe?


Odd you lack a ready response Even.
​

 

[reba]

How about a straight answer to a straight question?

 

[Hitch]

I skimmed over this one and I'm going to jump in because...well, largely because I'm a bit bored at the moment. Also, I was raised Calvinist and it has stuck with me, so I hate to see my belief system attacked.

Listen, if you're part of the Elect, you are part of the Elect because God was kind enough to choose you for Salvation, and in doing so God shows his grace and mercy. God doesn't withhold salvation from some people b/c he's some sort of Presbyterian monster who enjoys sending people to Hell. No, no--mankind sank into sin ("total depravity") with the sin of Adam and Eve. We are born into sin, we are sinful and devious through and through, and it takes a miracle to get a human, any human, to "see the light" and come to Jesus. The Elect are those who receive this miracle.

Please keep in mind that being Elect doesn't really mean you're special. I mean, yes, you're part of God's family and that's the coolest thing ever, but God doesn't choose His Elect based on merit or good works. He selects us so that we may then "work out our salvation with fear and trembling," doing good works, living upright lives in our communities, and being salt and light unto the Earth.

What I think really bothers a lot of people about Calvinism, especially in this day and age when we're taught that "God is love" (very true, but now how we think of it) and that we "choose" our own paths and that people are basically good, is that Calvinism teaches that humans are sinful and depraved and it takes an act of God to get us to become at least somewhat more godly. People are not good, people do not have total free will (our free will is conditioned by our sin state; only the Elect, less bound by their sin state, are truly "free," and even then we're slaves of righteousness), and we do not choose God--God chooses us, and we are to respond to Him with all the love and reverence due a loving creator God who has chosen to save us from sin, Satan, and death.

Have a nice day.

Nice work.


but God doesn't choose His Elect based on merit or good works

I just cant get how this simple idea which meshes perfectly with the local anathema ' Unconditional Election' can be forced into a basis for pride as is so often the charge. A charge laid on exclusively by those who claim they have chosen God's way. Is it pride that says I am utterly dependent on God's grace? Unmerited favor and unconditional election certainly are sides of a coin.

 

[reba]

I was labeled a Calvinist and had no idea who/what a Calvinist was. I have never studied Calvin's works

The reason i was so labeled was a few scriptures...I got kicked out of chats

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


These verses and others are just every bit as much Scripture as John 3 :16

Some how they do not contradict.

 

[reba]

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


What makes the persons described above choose God?

 

[Christ_empowered]

Good posts, reba.

 

[Eventide]

What makes the persons described above choose God?

Well Reba, I tried to show Hitch how this is just flat out wrong.. because we DON'T choose God.. and it didn't matter.. it's impossible for him to be corrected in the matter as I'm sure it will be impossible for you to be corrected in the matter.

We don't choose God.. we trust in Christ after hearing the gospel.. and after we believe it is God who seals us with the Holy Spirit of promise..

Now if you'd like to maintain that WE CHOOSE GOD and refuse to be corrected in that, then so be it.. there will be no surprises here.

 

[Eventide]

I skimmed over this one and I'm going to jump in because...well, largely because I'm a bit bored at the moment. Also, I was raised Calvinist and it has stuck with me, so I hate to see my belief system attacked.

I know how you feel.. I hate to see what I believe to be attacked or mocked.. like when Calvinists mock other Christians and tell them that they were wise enough to choose Christ... even though that's a mis-representation because we don't choose Christ.. the scriptures clearly teach that men trust in Christ after hearing the gospel and that after they believe it is God who seals them with the Holy Spirit.

So yeah, it can be frustrating at times but I know where you're coming from.

Listen, if you're part of the Elect, you are part of the Elect because God was kind enough to choose you for Salvation, and in doing so God shows his grace and mercy.

Here's the newsflash... God DID NOT choose YOU.. in fact He tells you that if you shall seek to save your life that you shall lose it.. so how's that God choosing YOU..? The scriptures are absolutely clear in showing us that all men are chosen IN CHRIST.. through belief of the truth and sanctification of the Spirit..

All in Adam according to the FLESH condemned, All in Christ justified freely through faith.

God doesn't withhold salvation from some people b/c he's some sort of Presbyterian monster who enjoys sending people to Hell. No, no--mankind sank into sin ("total depravity") with the sin of Adam and Eve. We are born into sin, we are sinful and devious through and through, and it takes a miracle to get a human, any human, to "see the light" and come to Jesus. The Elect are those who receive this miracle.

I agree, the elect of God are those who receive CHRIST.. and that is precisely why they ARE the elect.. because they are IN CHRIST and CHRIST IS the elect of God..

Calvinism teaches that these are UNCONDITIONALLY ELECTED (for reasons known only to God) and that's not scriptural at all.. but it doesn't stop thousands of posts about how it's a MYTH that Christ died for the sin of the world..

Please keep in mind that being Elect doesn't really mean you're special. I mean, yes, you're part of God's family and that's the coolest thing ever, but God doesn't choose His Elect based on merit or good works. He selects us so that we may then "work out our salvation with fear and trembling," doing good works, living upright lives in our communities, and being salt and light unto the Earth.

LOL.. Calvinists aren't special... they get the SPECIAL irresistable call while all others only get the general call.. and you're telling me that's not SPECIAL.. that's funny.

What I think really bothers a lot of people about Calvinism, especially in this day and age when we're taught that "God is love" (very true, but now how we think of it) and that we "choose" our own paths and that people are basically good, is that Calvinism teaches that humans are sinful and depraved and it takes an act of God to get us to become at least somewhat more godly. People are not good, people do not have total free will (our free will is conditioned by our sin state; only the Elect, less bound by their sin state, are truly "free," and even then we're slaves of righteousness), and we do not choose God--God chooses us, and we are to respond to Him with all the love and reverence due a loving creator God who has chosen to save us from sin, Satan, and death.

Have a nice day.

You're the THIRD Calvinist in a DAY that has told me that we believe that WE CHOOSE GOD.. and that's as unscriptural as Cavinism is.. we don't choose God.. HE CHOOSES us IN CHRIST... not in our old condemned nature but after we trust in CHRIST, AFTER hearing the GOSPEL, and AFTER we believe.. that's what Eph 1:13 teaches.

 

[Eventide]

How about a straight answer to a straight question?

Impossible with a Calvinist .. as demonstrated by Hitch.. I asked him if he denied that Calvinism teaches UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and IRRESISTABLE GRACE and he can't answer.. I know.. I'd be ashamed to admit that too.

 

[Eventide]

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

That's pretty clear isn't it.. that God hath chosen us IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world.. and that's easy to see because HE is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world..

NOW, rather than placing the emphasis on CHRIST here... Calvinists distort this to mean that God chose US before the foundation of the world.. I don't know how many times I've heard a Calvinist tell me that they were IN CHRIST from before the foundation of the world..

What the scripture teaches us is that God decided, elected, chose before the world began that all election would be IN CHRIST... and that's consistent with everything else in scripture because all scripture IS centered upon CHRIST..

But when Calvinists speak of election, Christ isn't anywhere in the picture.. NOPE... it's all about condemned men being chosen unconditionally.. and then typically, when they're called on it.. they can't even admit it.. and I can understand why.

 

[Hitch]

That's pretty clear isn't it.. that God hath chosen us IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world.. and that's easy to see because HE is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world..

NOW, rather than placing the emphasis on CHRIST here... Calvinists distort this to mean that God chose US before the foundation of the world.. I don't know how many times I've heard a Calvinist tell me that they were IN CHRIST from before the foundation of the world..

What the scripture teaches us is that God decided, elected, chose before the world began that all election would be IN CHRIST... and that's consistent with everything else in scripture because all scripture IS centered upon CHRIST..

But when Calvinists speak of election, Christ isn't anywhere in the picture.. NOPE... it's all about condemned men being chosen unconditionally.. and then typically, when they're called on it.. they can't even admit it.. and I can understand why.

LOL You're pathetic

 

[Christ_empowered]

Listen, I understand that Calvinists have a reputation as the "frozen chosen," but we're really not that bad. I promise.

Calvinists aren't the only ones who are part of the Elect. You don't have to believe in TULIP to be part of the Elect; coming to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and living in accordance with His will is what's required. You can be a Baptist, a Pentecostal, whatever...doctrine of the Elect, as Calvinists understand it, is simply the way God handles Salvation.

Calvinism may seem a bit misanthropic, what with its low view of human beings, but...look at the Holocaust. Look at Global Warming. People really, truly aren't that great--that's Biblical, and you can see it in the world around us. Calvinists simply believe that when you come to trust God and follow Christ, you do so because God has chosen you. Why? Think about it..how else could a sinful, devious, wicked person come to God. Rational thinking? Logic? Perhaps a list of "Pros" and "Cons" in which Christianity wins? I don't think so.

Christians are called by God, saved by his grace, transformed by His Spirit, and made sons of God through His son. We don't have total free will--our "free will" is conditioned by Sin, so we're actually slaves of evil--and we don't one day decide "You know what, Jesus is just alright with me..." We choose Christianity because God chose us. It's that simple.

 

[Eventide]

Listen, I understand that Calvinists have a reputation as the "frozen chosen," but we're really not that bad. I promise.

All false doctrine is bad.

Calvinists aren't the only ones who are part of the Elect. You don't have to believe in TULIP to be part of the Elect; coming to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and living in accordance with His will is what's required. You can be a Baptist, a Pentecostal, whatever...doctrine of the Elect, as Calvinists understand it, is simply the way God handles Salvation.

The Calvinist doctrine IS... UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION by means of IRRESISTABLE GRACE.. and neither of these are supported in scripture.

Calvinism may seem a bit misanthropic, what with its low view of human beings, but...look at the Holocaust. Look at Global Warming. People really, truly aren't that great--that's Biblical, and you can see it in the world around us. Calvinists simply believe that when you come to trust God and follow Christ, you do so because God has chosen you. Why? Think about it..how else could a sinful, devious, wicked person come to God. Rational thinking? Logic? Perhaps a list of "Pros" and "Cons" in which Christianity wins? I don't think so.

That's the point of this thread... God isn't choosing YOU, ME, or ANY other in Adam.. every last one of us is condemned in the FLESH.. FLESH gives birth to flesh, and the SPIRIT gives birth to the Spirit.

How do you equate this with God choosing you.. seriously.. "If YOU shall seek to save YOUR LIFE you shall LOSE IT and if you lose it for MY sake and the gospel.. you shall save it.."

That's not God choosing US at all, because again, every last one is chosen IN CHRIST.. and the basis is given in scripture.. by believing the truth and sanctification of the SPIRIT..

Christians are called by God, saved by his grace, transformed by His Spirit, and made sons of God through His son. We don't have total free will--our "free will" is conditioned by Sin, so we're actually slaves of evil--and we don't one day decide "You know what, Jesus is just alright with me..." We choose Christianity because God chose us. It's that simple.

That's right.. the bible does NOT say that we choose Christ.. it says that we first TRUSTED in Christ, AFTER hearing the gospel, and that AFTER we BELIEVED, we were sealed (by God) with the Holy Spirit.