The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[reba]

That's pretty clear isn't it.. that God hath chosen us IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world.. and that's easy to see because HE is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world..

NOW, rather than placing the emphasis on CHRIST here... Calvinists distort this to mean that God chose US before the foundation of the world.. I don't know how many times I've heard a Calvinist tell me that they were IN CHRIST from before the foundation of the world..

What the scripture teaches us is that God decided, elected, chose before the world began that all election would be IN CHRIST... and that's consistent with everything else in scripture because all scripture IS centered upon CHRIST..

But when Calvinists speak of election, Christ isn't anywhere in the picture.. NOPE... it's all about condemned men being chosen unconditionally.. and then typically, when they're called on it.. they can't even admit it.. and I can understand why.

You would label me a calvinist and yet you agree with what i posted. I tell you it is all Christ His Cross His sacrifice, nothing of my own.
Yes YES all men are condemned. Through Adam. Do you know a righteous person who is with out Christ? And God pulled me from the clay He saved me from being dead in sin. I did not save myself by sacrifice would be nothing.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Was Paul out of line to say no one looks for God?

Did you go against scripture and look for God?

From this side of the fence God is the Shepard looking for the lost sheep.

All the years i spent on the other side of the fence i thought i was looking for Him.

.....
being chosen unconditionally.....

YES unconditionally He ,God is the potter we are the clay.
If you believe salvation is conditional what did you do to be saved?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Mankind will never be good enough for salvation Salvation is a free gift!

 

[Eventide]

You would label me a calvinist and yet you agree with what i posted. I tell you it is all Christ His Cross His sacrifice, nothing of my own.
Yes YES all men are condemned. Through Adam. Do you know a righteous person who is with out Christ? And God pulled me from the clay He saved me from being dead in sin. I did not save myself by sacrifice would be nothing.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Was Paul out of line to say no one looks for God?

Did you go against scripture and look for God?

From this side of the fence God is the Shepard looking for the lost sheep.

All the years i spent on the other side of the fence i thought i was looking for Him.

Shall I write it once again Reba.. WE DO NOT CHOOSE GOD or even LOOK FOR GOD.. according to the scriptures men (and women of course) TRUST in Christ AFTER they hear the GOSPEL (which comes from God), and AFTER they BELIEVE, GOD seals them with the Holy Spirit..

You're right, election is NOT about us, it's about the Lord Jesus Christ because He IS the elect, the Chosen one of God in whom He delights.

YES unconditionally He ,God is the potter we are the clay.
If you believe salvation is conditional what did you do to be saved?

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Mankind will never be good enough for salvation Salvation is a free gift!

The scriptures clearly teach that election IS CONDITIONAL upon BELIEVING the TRUTH and sanctification of the SPIRIT.. which makes perfect sense because HE IS the TRUTH and His words ARE Spirit and they are LIFE.. and when a person BELIEVES GOD (just as Abraham did) then GOD seals that faith and accounts it as righteousness.

 

[Hitch]

Shall I write it once again Reba.. WE DO NOT CHOOSE GOD or even LOOK FOR GOD.. according to the scriptures men (and women of course) TRUST in Christ AFTER they hear the GOSPEL (which comes from God), and AFTER they BELIEVE, GOD seals them with the Holy Spirit..

Hmmmmmm Sam21 didnt get the memo;

If its true God grants all the same oppertunity you have no choice (heh heh) than to implicitly say you are better than all those who failed.

And you are required to explain your hope, yes? So explain it, what makes you better, why are you able to respond correctly, it must e that there is something special about you. Will you hide this great light from the rest of us? If we are all headed for hell then how could I be better than any other person headed for hell? A question for you(he,he), was Lot better than his wife or did Lot simply chose to obey God and she chose to disobey God? Were Lots daughters better than their mother or were they saved simply because they chose to do what God said? Were Aarons two sons better than the other two or did they simply chose to do what God said? Your argument defies reality because it is saying that a human does not have the ability to make a sensible choice or a foolish choice. We see humans making wise sensible choices and crazy foolish choices every day. A human can be presented by the Holy Spirit the opportunity to be saved and that human can chose to be wise and sensible and accept Christ or foolish and reject Christ, just like any human with anything can make a wise or foolish choice. This false doctrine that you are believing in is because you chose to believe it. You chose to believe what you now believe...it was YOUR CHOICE.

.[/QUOTE] Odd you failed to spring to correct Sam's ,,,ahh ,,,

 

[reba]

Well Reba, I tried to show Hitch how this is just flat out wrong.. because we DON'T choose God.. and it didn't matter.. it's impossible for him to be corrected in the matter as I'm sure it will be impossible for you to be corrected in the matter.

We don't choose God.. we trust in Christ after hearing the gospel.. and after we believe it is God who seals us with the Holy Spirit of promise..

Now if you'd like to maintain that WE CHOOSE GOD and refuse to be corrected in that, then so be it.. there will be no surprises here.

Eventide that is just semantics i am surprised!

 

[Hitch]

You're not really are you??

 

[reba]

The scriptures clearly teach that election IS CONDITIONAL upon BELIEVING the TRUTH and sanctification of the SPIRIT.. which makes perfect sense because HE IS the TRUTH and His words ARE Spirit and they are LIFE.. and when a person BELIEVES GOD (just as Abraham did) then GOD seals that faith and accounts it as righteousness.

In light of the verses in Romans posted earlier....

What causes a person to believe?

God paints a pretty ugly picture of man in Romans 3.

 

[reba]

That's the point of this thread... God isn't choosing YOU, ME, or ANY other in Adam.. every last one of us is condemned in the FLESH.. FLESH gives birth to flesh, and the SPIRIT gives birth to the Spirit.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Reading your quote Eventide and Scripture which should i believe?

 

[Eventide]

In light of the verses in Romans posted earlier....

What causes a person to believe?

God paints a pretty ugly picture of man in Romans 3.

The bible teaches that faith comes by hearing the word of God..

Calvinists teach that men and woman can't believe God and that God must regenerate them first so that they can believe, repent, love God, etc etc..

Which one should we believe Reba..?

 

[Eventide]

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Reading your quote Eventide and Scripture which should i believe?

Many people can't seem to understand the difference between God choosing THEM and and God choosing them IN CHRIST. For some reason the emphasis is placed upon THEM rather than on IN CHRIST.

This might help... ALL IN ADAM according to the FLESH are under the same condemnation.. for there are none righteous, no not even one.. God chooses NONE in the their flesh, in their Adamic nature..

FLESH gives birth to FLESH..

SPIRIT gives birth to the SPIRIT..

When a person believes the truth, then according to Eph 1:13 God seals them with the Holy Spirit and they are then baptized into the body of CHRIST.. they are chosen IN CHRIST.. and that's what Eph 1 speaks of.. that God chose us in CHRIST from before the foundation of the world.

All of this matters very little Reba.. because imo it's impossible for any Calvinist to be proven wrong according to the scriptures...

 

[savedbygrace57]

The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT

The elect of God are never condemned by God rom 8:


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[Eventide]

The elect of God are never condemned by God rom 8:


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The first problem is that you DO consider condemned men to te the 'elect' of God.. although scripture teaches that all men in Adam are condemned and that the Lord Jesus Christ (the Last Adam) IS the elect of God..

Secondly.. perhaps you conveniently left out this portion of Romans 8..

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

All in the first Adam condemned in the FLESH.. and we know that flesh gives birth to the flesh..
All in the Last Adam justified freely by faith, and who are born again in the SPIRIT.

 

[Eventide]

IMO if people can't see that their old nature is under condemnation.. then they haven't learned the first lesson of repentance toward God and faith (trust) in the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's either that or you're a Calvinist and therefore it's impossible to be wrong in believing that you're the elect.. lol

 

[savedbygrace57]

Who is he that condemneth God's elect ? For its not God !

The elect of God, those Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, were never condemned legally by God, that could never be, but Christ their Covenant Head, whom they were chosen in, He was their Surety and personally responsible for any condemnation they would incur for their sinfulness. God agreed to hold Christ Legally liable for their sins and hence to punish Christ for their iniquties, leaving them legally Justified before Him..

God never has, and never will ever condemn His elect..rom 8:


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

It is Christ who died ! Why ? Because He was condemned in their stead..

 

[reba]

Eventide you refuse to answer the question?

reba

Re: The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...
That's the point of this thread... God isn't choosing YOU, ME, or ANY other in Adam.. every last one of us is condemned in the FLESH.. FLESH gives birth to flesh, and the SPIRIT gives birth to the Spirit.

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


Reading your quote Eventide and Scripture which should i believe?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Look the whole verse is posted

When confronted you simply play semantics. When folks do that there is no discussion
​

 

[Eventide]

Re: Who is he that condemneth God's elect ? For its not God !

The elect of God, those Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, were never condemned legally by God, that could never be, but Christ their Covenant Head, whom they were chosen in, He was their Surety and personally responsible for any condemnation they would incur for their sinfulness. God agreed to hold Christ Legally liable for their sins and hence to punish Christ for their iniquties, leaving them legally Justified before Him..

God never has, and never will ever condemn His elect..rom 8:


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

It is Christ who died ! Why ? Because He was condemned in their stead..

So your old nature is not condemned SBG.. You don't need to repent ? Seriously.. do you actually believe that your life in the flesh is justified before God even though He plainly says that if you shall seek to save YOUR LIFE that you shall lose it..?

I don't even think your fellow Calvinists would agree with you on this one..

Do you need to take up your cross and deny yourself..? OR is there no need for that seeing that you're one of the 'elect'.. the Chosen in whom He delights...?

 

[Eventide]

Eventide you refuse to answer the question?

What are you playing childish games like Hitch now.. ?

I did answer your question Rebe.. although seeing that you're a Calvinist I'm certain that it's impossible for you to be wrong.. so you might as well just keep telling yourself that you're the elect..

Did God chose YOU... or did He choose you IN CHRIST.. ?

Where would you like to place the emphasis here Reba, upon YOU or upon IN CHRIST..?

Then, once you're IN CHRIST is your OLD LIFE justified, or is it the life of CHRIST IN YOU that is justified ?

Again, none of this will matter to a Calvinist.

 

[Hitch]

Re: Who is he that condemneth God's elect ? For its not God !

So your old nature is not condemned SBG.. You don't need to repent ? Seriously.. do you actually believe that your life in the flesh is justified before God even though He plainly says that if you shall seek to save YOUR LIFE that you shall lose it..?

I don't even think your fellow Calvinists would agree with you on this one..

No need, everyone can see that you're reduced to ridiculous spin and misrepresentation

Do you need to take up your cross and deny yourself..? OR is there no need for that seeing that you're one of the 'elect'.. the Chosen in whom He delights...?

 

[Hitch]

The bible teaches that faith comes by hearing the word of God..

Calvinists teach that men and woman can't believe God and that God must regenerate them first so that they can believe, repent, love God, etc etc..

Which one should we believe Reba..?

So what is the origin of 'ears that hear' ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

So what is the origin of 'ears that hear' ?

Well if the ears are spiritual ears, which they are, then they originate from a spiritual creation..

 

[Eventide]

There's no possible way for a Calvinist to admit that they're not the elect, and that the Lord Jesus Christ is.. because then of course they'd be wrong in their doctrine of Unconditional Election.. and everyone knows that's impossible.

There's a world of difference between YOU being the elect, and you being the elect IN CHRIST.. but again, it's impossible for a Calvinist to be wrong about this... or anything for that matter. The entire living and powerful word of God MUST be filtered through TULIP first..

The actual bottom line imo is that they need to be SPECIAL... like the one true church crowd.. or like any false doctrine which attempts to justify man in the flesh..

They're the elect, they got the special call, God enabled them personally to believe while all others can't..

S P E C I A L ! ! !