The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[Hitch]

There's no possible way for a Calvinist to admit that they're not the elect, and that the Lord Jesus Christ is.. because then of course they'd be wrong in their doctrine of Unconditional Election.. and everyone knows that's impossible.

There's a world of difference between YOU being the elect, and you being the elect IN CHRIST.. but again, it's impossible for a Calvinist to be wrong about this... or anything for that matter. The entire living and powerful word of God MUST be filtered through TULIP first..

The actual bottom line imo is that they need to be SPECIAL... like the one true church crowd.. or like any false doctrine which attempts to justify man in the flesh..

They're the elect, they got the special call, God enabled them personally to believe while all others can't..

S P E C I A L ! ! !

Watching a dog chase its tail is funny, for a little while.

 

[Eventide]

Well if the ears are spiritual ears, which they are, then they originate from a spiritual creation..

So SBG doesn't believe that he is condemned.. no need for repentance.. no need to take up his cross, no need to deny himself..

He's the elect along with the Lord Jesus Christ..

Yeah.. that's been Satan's problem all along hasn't it.. trying to be like God.. and exalting himself in the place of God..

Subtle but dangerous..

 

[reba]

What are you playing childish games like Hitch now.. ?

I did answer your question Rebe.. although seeing that you're a Calvinist I'm certain that it's impossible for you to be wrong.. so you might as well just keep telling yourself that you're the elect..

Did God chose YOU... or did He choose you IN CHRIST.. ?

Where would you like to place the emphasis here Reba, upon YOU or upon IN CHRIST..?

Then, once you're IN CHRIST is your OLD LIFE justified, or is it the life of CHRIST IN YOU that is justified ?

Again, none of this will matter to a Calvinist.

I am sorry did i miss a post? I saw a question to me but not an answer....

 

[Eventide]

I am sorry did i miss a post? I saw a question to me but not an answer....

According to the word of God.. God chooses us upon these conditions..

BELIEVING the TRUTH and SANCTIFICATION of the SPIRIT..

Do you still believe that election is 'unconditional'.. ?

Eph teaches us that we are chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world and Eph 1:13 tells us exactly when this happened.. it was after we trusted in Christ (the Truth), after hearing the gospel, and after we believed..

Eph 2 teaches us that BEFORE this happened we were dead and lost in trespasses and in sins and were by nature vessels fit for destruction as others.. because the bible is also clear that ALL in Adam are under the same condemnation.. for there are none righteous.. and all have sinned and are fallen short of the glory of God.

Now do you believe that God chose you in your Adamic nature or in CHRIST ? In accordance with the FLESH or is it according to the SPIRIT..?

After you're saved, is it your old life which is justified before God or is it the life of Christ in you that is justified..?

 

[Hitch]

=Eventide;523101]According to the word of God.. God chooses us upon these conditions..

Really? So you were with him before the creation? You really are special

B

ELIEVING the TRUTH and SANCTIFICATION of the SPIRIT..

Do you still believe that election is 'unconditional'.. ?

Eph teaches us that we are chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world and Eph 1:13 tells us exactly when this happened.. it was after we trusted in Christ (the Truth), after hearing the gospel, and after we believed..

Eph 2 teaches us that BEFORE this happened we were dead and lost in trespasses and in sins and were by nature vessels fit for destruction as others.. because the bible is also clear that ALL in Adam are under the same condemnation.. for there are none righteous.. and all have sinned and are fallen short of the glory of God.

Now do you believe that God chose you in your Adamic nature or in CHRIST ? In accordance with the FLESH or is it according to the SPIRIT..?

After you're saved, is it your old life which is justified before God or is it the life of Christ in you that is justified..

?:biglol

 

[Eventide]

The actual MYTH..

That's the bottom line here isn't it..

Is God's election 'conditional' or is it 'unconditional'.. ?

Did God condemn all in Adam, or just the one's He didn't select 'unconditionally'..?

IMO that one's settled.. every last one of us is condemned in our Adamic nature.. certainly a hard pill to swallow so to speak although I certainly see the scriptures telling me that for sure.. that if I shall seek to save my life I'll lose it.. and if I lose it for Him I'll save it.. Unless ye forsake all that ye have, ye cannot be My disciple..

If that's NOT conditional then what is..?

The cost is everything because the reward is beyond measure... and it's the great exchange.. laying down our life for His LIFE.. because He is the Way, the Truth, and the LIFE.

Who truly believes that their old life is justified before God after being saved, and after that true light shows us how exceedingly sinful we are by nature.. in comparison to the perfect life of Christ within us.. ?

Who's the elect there..?

 

[Hitch]

Re: The actual MYTH..

That's the bottom line here isn't it..

Is God's election 'conditional' or is it 'unconditional'.. ?

Did God condemn all in Adam, or just the one's He didn't select 'unconditionally'..?

IMO that one's settled.. every last one of us is condemned in our Adamic nature.. certainly a hard pill to swallow so to speak although I certainly see the scriptures telling me that for sure.. that if I shall seek to save my life I'll lose it.. and if I lose it for Him I'll save it.. Unless ye forsake all that ye have, ye cannot be My disciple..

If that's NOT conditional then what is..?

The cost is everything because the reward is beyond measure... and it's the great exchange.. laying down our life for His LIFE.. because He is the Way, the Truth, and the LIFE.

Who truly believes that their old life is justified before God after being saved,

hmmmm I cant think of anybody,

and after that true light shows us how exceedingly sinful we are by nature.. in comparison to the perfect life of Christ within us.. ?

Who's the elect there..?

 

[Eventide]

So it should be obvious that election is conditional.. and not unconditional.

God chooses none in the first Adam..

God chooses ALL in the Last Adam..

 

[Hitch]

So it should be obvious that election is conditional.. and not unconditional.

God chooses none in the first Adam..

God chooses ALL in the Last Adam..

LOL You were challenged from the begining to cite Calvin or any Reformer who taught that anyone was chosen outside of Christ.

You failed.

You're like the little dog barking out the window at nothing.


From post # 7 this thread;

Wow only a few posts and the mark of net forum desperation is already goosestepping across the stage. :toofunny


Christians are members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. old things are passed away and all things are become NEW IN CHRIST.. and because you're IN CHRIST, you are the elect, not because YOU ARE, but rather because HE IS.

So I'' take the bait. How about you ,or Even, show us all exactly where and how any teaching by Calvin, or any well known Reformer, violates the above in bold.

Please be christian enough to include references.

Or are you just telling a really big lie ?

Thousands of books and articles written on this and you cant find one quote to support your silly claim.

 

[reba]

According to the word of God.. God chooses us upon these conditions..

BELIEVING the TRUTH and SANCTIFICATION of the SPIRIT..

Do you still believe that election is 'unconditional'.. ?

Eph teaches us that we are chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world and Eph 1:13 tells us exactly when this happened.. it was after we trusted in Christ (the Truth), after hearing the gospel, and after we believed..

Eph 2 teaches us that BEFORE this happened we were dead and lost in trespasses and in sins and were by nature vessels fit for destruction as others.. because the bible is also clear that ALL in Adam are under the same condemnation.. for there are none righteous.. and all have sinned and are fallen short of the glory of God.

Now do you believe that God chose you in your Adamic nature or in CHRIST ? In accordance with the FLESH or is it according to the SPIRIT..?

After you're saved, is it your old life which is justified before God or is it the life of Christ in you that is justified..?

Ok you were dead in sin, as we all, are and you decided to 'hear' the Word? How and why? Why did you decide to hear and tom jones didn't? Why you? How does a dead man hear? The story of Lazereth is coming to mind..

 

[cleanfreak]

Ok you were dead in sin, as we all, are and you decided to 'hear' the Word? How and why? Why did you decide to hear and tom jones didn't? Why you? How does a dead man hear? The story of Lazereth is coming to mind..

I think he means he and 'Tom Jones' heard the Word. He chose to believe it as Tom did not......


.............still trying to wrap my head around this.........

 

[Eventide]

Counting the cost..

Ok you were dead in sin, as we all, are and you decided to 'hear' the Word? How and why? Why did you decide to hear and tom jones didn't? Why you? How does a dead man hear? The story of Lazereth is coming to mind..

OK, first of all.. can you see that election is conditional upon believing the truth and upon sanctification of the Spirit, rather than it being 'unconditional'..?

As for the gazillion possible reasons as to why people agree with God and believe what He says.. I can't possibly speak to all of these circumstances in detail.. although the scriptures tell us that men will not come to the light because their deeds are evil.. many prefer to stay right where they're at.. that's one reason and imo the main reason is because of the COST...

IF we truly agree with God.. and believe Him when He says things like there are none good but one.. and that if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it.. then we can begin to see the cost of true discipleship.. how many want to forsake all that they have to follow Christ and to be 'promised' a future inheritance which is beyond measure.. ?

I wouldn't say that these are all absolute requirements for being saved although it's not simply yeah I believe God and will continue to live the life that I was in, as if it costs nothing to follow Him..

We also know for sure that Adam could hear God's voice and he could understand God's voice, in accordance with the scriptures.. it tells us plainly right there in Genesis.. that Adam was capable of hearing and understanding God after he fell into disobedience..

For me personally it was like what the men said when they were sent to apprehend Jesus.. they came back without Him and said.. "Never a Man spake like this man".. isn't that what happens when we read the word of God and it penetrates the deepest places of our heart and mind..? How about the woman at the well.. "Come see a Man who told me all things ever I did.. can this be the Christ..?"

So while the reasons may vary immensely from case to case, the general reasons given in scripture are pretty clear.. the deception of Satan.. the cares of this life, riches.. etc etc..

 

[reba]

Re: Counting the cost..

OK, first of all.. can you see that election is conditional upon believing the truth and upon sanctification of the Spirit, rather than it being 'unconditional'..?

I did not do this He did

Psa 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

As for the gazillion possible reasons as to why people agree with God and believe what He says.. I can't possibly speak to all of these circumstances in detail.. although the scriptures tell us that men will not come to the light because their deeds are evil.. many prefer to stay right where they're at.. that's one reason and imo the main reason is because of the COST...

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

IF we truly agree with God.. and believe Him when He says things like there are none good but one.. and that if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it.. then we can begin to see the cost of true discipleship.. how many want to forsake all that they have to follow Christ and to be 'promised' a future inheritance which is beyond measure.. ?

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I wouldn't say that these are all absolute requirements for being saved although it's not simply yeah I believe God and will continue to live the life that I was in, as if it costs nothing to follow Him..

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

We also know for sure that Adam could hear God's voice and he could understand God's voice, in accordance with the scriptures.. it tells us plainly right there in Genesis.. that Adam was capable of hearing and understanding God after he fell into disobedience..

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

For me personally it was like what the men said when they were sent to apprehend Jesus.. they came back without Him and said.. "Never a Man spake like this man".. isn't that what happens when we read the word of God and it penetrates the deepest places of our heart and mind..? How about the woman at the well.. "Come see a Man who told me all things ever I did.. can this be the Christ..?"

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

So while the reasons may vary immensely from case to case, the general reasons given in scripture are pretty clear.. the deception of Satan.. the cares of this life, riches.. etc etc..

Psa 3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Counting the cost..

I did not do this He did

Then you are special, because the rest of need to repent and believe the gospel, and if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it.. and it's condemned already..

Psa 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.

IMO this is all about the Lord Jesus Christ, although I can see it applicable to any believer who has been delivered from the horrible pit of sin.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I think context here is important.. think about when Jesus spoke to multitudes.. do you think that none of them had a clue what He was saying..? I think the response of the Pharisees shows us that they knew exactly what He was saying when He spoke..

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Amen to that !

If you'd like to believe that you didn't need to do a thing and that God just enabled you to repent and to believe in Him, and that He allows this for certain condemned men unconditionally, then that's ok, I'm not going to convince you otherwise.

IMO it's a lost aspect of gospel preaching today.. counting the cost.. and the staggering conditions placed upon being a disciple of Christ.. losing my life for His eternal and infinitely glorious life.. it should be a no brainer but reality shows us it's not.. It's been a long journey for me and there are many times I feel like a reprobate.. because the battle is ongoing.. and because of the sin which so easily besets us.. but we can do all things in Him if we're willing to lay it all down and let Him live through us.. so even after we're saved it's a constant war against the flesh and the Spirit of Christ in us, our hope of glory.

 

[reba]

IMO it's a lost aspect of gospel preaching today.. counting the cost.. and the staggering conditions placed upon being a disciple of Christ.. losing my life for His eternal and infinitely glorious life.. it should be a no brainer but reality shows us it's not.. It's been a long journey for me and there are many times I feel like a reprobate.. because the battle is ongoing.. and because of the sin which so easily besets us.. but we can do all things in Him if we're willing to lay it all down and let Him live through us.. so even after we're saved it's a constant war against the flesh and the Spirit of Christ in us, our hope of glory.

Agreed

Then you are special, because the rest of need to repent and believe the gospel, and if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it.. and it's condemned already..

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

how does a dead man repent? Does God quicken him? Did Lazarus decide to come alive? Did God/Jesus call/quicken him?

To my understanding you say "you chose God and try as i might i can not get you to understand He chose you! I read from you that folks who believe as i do have a big head.... I will tell you not so. When the realization sunk in it was the most humbling time in my life. all the years before i thought i chose God Let Jesus into your heart.......let, LET? Who am i to LET GOD that is so scary. Guess we will be across the fence lets just make it a little one?

Please look past the verbiage and see the spirit of my heart.

 

[Eventide]

To my understanding you say "you chose God and try as i might i can not get you to understand He chose you! I read from you that folks who believe as i do have a big head.... I will tell you not so. When the realization sunk in it was the most humbling time in my life. all the years before i thought i chose God Let Jesus into your heart.......let, LET? Who am i to LET GOD that is so scary. Guess we will be across the fence lets just make it a little one?

There's no point in having a one way conversation here Reba.. and it's evident that you're not listening to anything that I have mentioned because I've said it at least three times now.. according to the scriptures we do not choose God and He does not choose us..

He chooses us in Christ.

Let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I don't get it. You think Calvinists, or others who believe in forms of Predestination (the Catholic Church recognizes a form of predestination, too) think they're "special"?

The whole point of predestination, aside from the fact that its quite Biblical, is that the sinner-turned-Christian was, is, and will always be a wretched sinner wholly dependent upon God for his/her salvation. The sinner cannot point to their good works or even to their faith and say "This is mine; I did this." For your typical Calvinist, the Christian is simply a sinner saved by grace, the unmerited favor of God. From what I understand of the Catholic position, they too believe that anything that is good in the sinner-turned-believer is a gift from God, although they don't believe in Total Depravity, so they emphasize a mysterious interaction of God's grace and the sinner's free will.

 

[Eventide]

I don't get it. You think Calvinists, or others who believe in forms of Predestination (the Catholic Church recognizes a form of predestination, too) think they're "special"?

What I don't get is where you come up with this statement.. ? ? ?

I haven't mentioned Predestination in this thread that I'm aware of.. although since you mention it let's talk about it.

The scriptures teach that we are predestinated to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ (Eph 1).. and Romans 8 teaches us that the whole creation groans and is WAITING for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies.. so predestination is certainly biblical.

The whole point of predestination, aside from the fact that its quite Biblical, is that the sinner-turned-Christian was, is, and will always be a wretched sinner wholly dependent upon God for his/her salvation.

I'd suggest that you look at predestination again and see it in light of what the scriptures actually say concerning it.

The sinner cannot point to their good works or even to their faith and say "This is mine; I did this." For your typical Calvinist, the Christian is simply a sinner saved by grace, the unmerited favor of God. From what I understand of the Catholic position, they too believe that anything that is good in the sinner-turned-believer is a gift from God, although they don't believe in Total Depravity, so they emphasize a mysterious interaction of God's grace and the sinner's free will.

Well, if you think that God one day unconditionally chose you (even though it's a biblical fact that your flesh is condemned in Adam, just like the rest of us), and allowed you to repent and to believe Him.. and yet does not allow this for all men.. then you are SPECIAL..

 

[Hitch]

There's no point in having a one way conversation here Reba.. and it's evident that you're not listening to anything that I have mentioned because I've said it at least three times now.. according to the scriptures we do not choose God and He does not choose us..

He chooses us in Christ.

Let's just agree to disagree.

Still chasing your tail I see.:toofunny
'
As near as I can tell from this thread Even thinks he is right because he believes ' He [God] chooses us in Christ.'
Yet somehow Even thinks Calvin is fundamentally in error because he taught that ' He [God] chooses us in Christ'.


So;

God chooses us in Christ CALVIN=Bad

God chooses us in Christ EVEN =Good

Well I dont believe I can commit that to print in a way that will make sense to me, its a pity if it makes sense to you.

 

[Hitch]

Many people want to know their election before they look to Christ. But they cannot learn it thus; it is only to be discovered by “looking unto Jesus.†Look to Jesus, believe on Him, and you shall make proof of your election directly, for as surely as you believe, you are elect. If you will give yourself wholly up to Christ and trust Him, then you are one of God’s chosen ones. Go to Jesus just as you are. Go straight to Christ, hide in His wounds, and you shall know your election… Christ was at the everlasting council. He can tell you whether you were chosen or not, but you cannot find out in any other way. Go and put your trust in Him. There will be no doubt about His having chosen you, when you have chosen Him." C.H. Spurgeon