The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

[Eventide]

That's basically the main thrust and point of this thread.. that God is not choosing us.. He isn't choosing ANY in Adam.. because He can't contradict Himself and His word plainly says that all are under condemnation in Adam.

Why would ANY Christian be led to believe that God is choosing THEM when He says that if you shall seek to save your life you shall lose it.. and that if you lose it for HIM that you'll save it..

Who is the Chosen one there ?

How about this..

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me..? OR THIS.. set your affections on things above, and not on the things on earth, for YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid in Christ with God.. When Christ appears, who IS OUR LIFE, we shall appear with Him..

Who in their right mind is going to be led to believe that God is choosing US.. and unconditionally at that ?

The scriptures tell us EXACTLY why (the conditions) that God chooses us and that He chooses us IN CHRIST.. by believing the truth and through sanctification of the Spirit..

The scriptures also declare plainly that the Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect, the Chosen One in whom He delights..? Who in their right Christian mind would believe that this means THEM and NOT Christ ?

All in Adam are in the same boat.. we're not the elect.. HE IS.. and that's why NONE are chosen in Adam and every single one IS chosen in CHRIST..

 

[Hitch]

That's basically the main thrust and point of this thread.. that God is not choosing us.. He isn't choosing ANY in Adam.. because He can't contradict Himself and His word plainly says that all are under condemnation in Adam.

Why would ANY Christian be led to believe that God is choosing THEM when He says that if you shall seek to save your life you shall lose it.. and that if you lose it for HIM that you'll save it..

Who is the Chosen one there ?

How about this..

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me..? OR THIS.. set your affections on things above, and not on the things on earth, for YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid in Christ with God.. When Christ appears, who IS OUR LIFE, we shall appear with Him..

Who in their right mind is going to be led to believe that God is choosing US.. and unconditionally at that ?

The scriptures tell us EXACTLY why (the conditions) that God chooses us and that He chooses us IN CHRIST.. by believing the truth and through sanctification of the Spirit..

The scriptures also declare plainly that the Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect, the Chosen One in whom He delights..? Who in their right Christian mind would believe that this means THEM and NOT Christ ?

All in Adam are in the same boat.. we're not the elect.. HE IS.. and that's why NONE are chosen in Adam and every single one IS chosen in CHRIST..

Very Calvinistic of you.

 

[Eventide]

Still chasing your tail I see.:toofunny
'
As near as I can tell from this thread Even thinks he is right because he believes ' He [God] chooses us in Christ.'
Yet somehow Even thinks Calvin is fundamentally in error because he taught that ' He [God] chooses us in Christ'.

This is as disingenuous as it gets.. because I asked you more than once if you denied that Calvinism teaches UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION by means of IRESISTABLE grace and you can't.. and I haven't once said that Calvinism does not teach election in Christ but rather that ITS BASIS is what is incorrect.. ie, UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.

If you can sleep at night making posts like this as if you can't understand the difference then so be it.. although until you can acknowledge the simple fact that Calvinism DOES teach UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (ie, NO BASIS at all) and that they receive this by IRRESISTABLE GRACE... then there's no point in any further discussion... I have no desire to try to convice you of anything although for the sake of anyone reading this I wanted to clarify.

 

[Eventide]

Very Calvinistic of you.

I don't follow men.. CHRIST is its basis.. not John Calvin.

Calvinists preach and teach UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION by means of IRRESISTABLE GRACE which THEY receive, while the rest of the world only gets the general call..

SPECIAL CASE written all over it... and this is what happens when men (even a dead man) are honored above the word of God.

 

[Hitch]

This is as disingenuous as it gets.. because I asked you more than once if you denied that Calvinism teaches UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION by means of IRESISTABLE grace and you can't..

Actually I told youu I embraced that doctrine

and I haven't once said that Calvinism does not teach election in Christ but rather that ITS BASIS is what is incorrect.. ie, UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.

If you can sleep at night making posts like this as if you can't understand the difference then so be it.. although until you can acknowledge the simple fact that Calvinism DOES teach UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (ie, NO BASIS at all) and that they receive this by IRRESISTABLE GRACE... then there's no point in any further discussion... I have no desire to try to convice you of anything although for the sake of anyone reading this I wanted to clarify.

You got one right.

You cant go about screaming that because YOU say we are chosen by God in Christ Calvin is wrong when he says we are chosen by God in Christ.

 

[Hitch]

I don't follow men.. CHRIST is its basis.. not John Calvin.

Calvinists preach and teach UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION by means of IRRESISTABLE GRACE which THEY receive, while the rest of the world only gets the general call..

SPECIAL CASE written all over it... and this is what happens when men (even a dead man) are honored above the word of God.

It not my fault that the main point you bring against Calvin is Calvinistic:biglol specifically that we are chosen by God 'in Christ' .

That is your problem.

 

[Eventide]

Here's one Calvinist definition in case anyone missed it..

The basis of God's election is a mystery only known to God. We may not understand how it can be that He is able to elect some while passing by others. But rest assured, everything that God has decided to do is perfect and righteous because He makes no mistakes. Some say that this paints a picture of a God that is capricious and unjust. But this view overlooks the fact that if all humanity received what is just from God, then all would be condemned to eternal death in hell. God is under no obligation to save anyone. His shows mercy by choosing to save some condemned to death.

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION as defined by a Calvinist..

 

[Eventide]

It not my fault that the main point you bring against Calvin is Calvinistic:biglol specifically that we are chosen by God 'in Christ' .

Thatis your problem.

And it's not my problem that you can't even admit what you believe.. as mentioned.. I'd be ashamed of it too.

 

[Hitch]

And it's not my problem that you can't even admit what you believe.. as mentioned.. I'd be ashamed of it too.

LOl Well several times on this thread I stated and repeated that I embrace 'unconditional election' as per Calvin. (most recently post # 85)

For you to imply the contrary is childish, and dishonest.

And fits you well.

 

[Eventide]

Actually I told youu I embraced that doctrine

Gee, then you'd think you would have simply answered it.. obviously there's a different agenda here.

You cant go about screaming that because YOU say we are chosen by God in Christ Calvin is wrong when he says we are chosen by God in Christ.

Again, I can't imagine why anyone would be this disingenuous.. well, I can think of a few reasons..

How about that BASIS of election huh..

Ohh right.. that's only been mentioned a dozen times at least and not mentioned once by you.. you'd rather play with your strawmen all day as if it's what the real argument is here.

That's why it's pointless talking to you Hitch..

 

[Eventide]

LOl Well several times on this thread I stated and repeated that I embrace 'unconditional election' as per Calvin. (most recently post # 85)

For you to imply the contrary is childish, and dishonest.

And fits you well.

Then why didn't you say that ? And why are you pretending that it's NOT ABOUT THAT, the very BASIS which you see election..?

It's obvious to me Hitch.. so there's no need to explain.

 

[Hitch]

Gee, then you'd think you would have simply answered it.. obviously there's a different agenda here.



Again, I can't imagine why anyone would be this disingenuous.. well, I can think of a few reasons..

How about that BASIS of election huh..

Isnt that what you mean by saying 'in Christ' ?

Ohh right.. that's only been mentioned a dozen times at least and not mentioned once by you.. you'd rather play with your strawmen all day as if it's what the real argument is here.

LOL Actually jr I've met you head on every time and
began my comments here challenging YOU to post anything from any well known Reformer that was contrary to out election being 'in Christ' and you failed miserably

That's why it's pointless talking to you Hitch..

From my post #7 this thread;

Wow only a few posts and the mark of net forum desperation is already goosestepping across the stage. :toofunny


Christians are members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. old things are passed away and all things are become NEW IN CHRIST.. and because you're IN CHRIST, you are the elect, not because YOU ARE, but rather because HE IS.

So I'' take the bait. How about you ,or Even, show us all exactly where and how any teaching by Calvin, or any well known Reformer, violates the above in bold.

Please be christian enough to include references.

Or are you just telling a really big lie ?

As of 3/25 you are yet to come up with one word,from any Reformer, in support of your claim LOL

 

[Hitch]

Then why didn't you say that ? And why are you pretending that it's NOT ABOUT THAT, the very BASIS which you see election..?

It's obvious to me Hitch.. so there's no need to explain.

This thread is NOT about ' unconditional election' as per Calvin?

From your post # 6 this thread;

Re: The MYTH of condemned men being the ELECT...

That's how I feel Sam.. and I first heard of Calvinism about 20 years ago and even then it seemed ridiculous to me.. although over time I have come to see Unconditional Election as one of the more subtle lies of Satan..​

 

[Eventide]

Of course it's about UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.. that's the MYTH.. that any condemned man is the elect in the first place.. because Christ alone IS the elect and we are the elect IN HIM... and UE is the entire BASIS of the other thread which prompted me to begin this one..

Calvinist's are the only ones as far as I know who preach and teach unconditional election which is enabled by irresistable grace..

That's the myth.. which the thread titled "The Myth that Jesus Christ died for all men".. is based upon.. because when we understand that Christ alone is the elect, THEN all the other nonsense about certain condemned men BEING the elect vanishes.. and Christ alone is glorified in election.. rather than endless conversation about WHO the 'elect' are..

They're the ones in Christ.. it's that simple, and infinitely glorious because He alone is exalted in the doctrine of election.

 

[Hitch]

Of course it's about UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.. that's the MYTH.. that any condemned man is the elect in the first place.. because Christ alone IS the elect and we are the elect IN HIM... and UE is the entire BASIS of the other thread which prompted me to begin this one..

then your implication that I have not answered is pure fabrication 2

Calvinist's are the only ones as far as I know who preach and teach unconditional election which is enabled by irresistable grace..

That's the myth.. which the thread titled "The Myth that Jesus Christ died for all men".. is based upon.. because when we understand that Christ alone is the elect, THEN all the other nonsense about certain condemned men BEING the elect vanishes.. and Christ alone is glorified in election.. rather than endless conversation about WHO the 'elect' are..

They're the ones in Christ.. it's that simple, and infinitely glorious because He alone is exalted in the doctrine of election.

Yawn It doesnt matter how many times you repeat 'He chooses us in Christ' you cant change the fact that you agree with Calvin who teaches' He chooses us in Christ'.

Since its of great import to you to show yourself contrary to Calvin, it would be sensible for you to pick and area in which you disagree.

 

[Eventide]

Since its of great import to you to show yourself contrary to Calvin, it would be sensible for you to pick and area in which you disagree.

Ok, let's see... hhhmmmm... how about..

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION by IRRESISTABLE GRACE..

LOL.. this is pretty funny, you're a funny guy, I got to give you that !

 

[Hitch]

Ok, let's see... hhhmmmm... how about..

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION by IRRESISTABLE GRACE..

LOL.. this is pretty funny, you're a funny guy, I got to give you that !

Well here is your original complaint;

Hey, if the other thread can go on and one... let's have a sister thread concerning the false premise that the other thread is based upon..

Many Christians have been taught that THEY are the elect of God.. and this might seem fairly obvious to the passive reader who might not have considered WHY a person (like a Christian) is referred to as the elect in scripture.. although upon close examination of the scriptures we can see that WE are not the elect of God but rather that the Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect of God and that we are the elect IN HIM..

That's the key here... IN HIM..

Christians are members of the BODY OF CHRIST.. old things are passed away and all things are become NEW IN CHRIST.. and because you're IN CHRIST, you are the elect, not because YOU ARE, but rather because HE IS

And you have proven unable to produce a single word from any well known Reformer,including Calvin, that says anything contrary. Despite 7 or 8 invitations to do so. Your most recent and loudest declaration, that 'He chooses us in Christ' is identical to Calvin who also teaches 'He chooses us in Christ'.
That was your great point to prove Calvin wrong, it was a very poor choice on your part. Even you cant prove Calvin wrong by agreeing with him.

 

[Elijah674]

Can anyone on this thread use the Bible alone for their Eph. 4:5's One Faith?? Instead of the past/tense DEAD Arm of Flesh where even, neither were correct!? Jer. 17:5

--Elijah

 

[Eventide]

Well here is your original complaint;

And you have proven unable to produce a single word from any well known Reformer,including Calvin, that says anything contrary. Despite 7 or 8 invitations to do so. Your most recent and loudest declaration, that 'He chooses us in Christ' is identical to Calvin who also teaches 'He chooses us in Christ'.
That was your great point to prove Calvin wrong, it was a very poor choice on your part. Even you cant prove Calvin wrong by agreeing with him.

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION has been shown to wrong over and over again.. in case you missed that part..

Why, because as you agree.. ALL election is in CHRIST.. there's one condition.. and also because we're not the ELECT, Christ is the ELECT, the Chosen ONE in whom He delights.. there's another reason.. and of course God elected (chose) us through BELIEVING the TRUTH and SANCTIFICATION of the SPIRIT.. another painfully obvious CONDITION..

Like I said before.. that's the bottom line isn't it.. God's election is one or the other.. the bible certainly indicates that it IS CONDITIONAL.. Calvinists insist that IT (election) is UNCONDITIONAL..

Now I'm certain that this won't matter, and you'll most likely come back with your strawman again telling me that I agree with John Calvin.. and that's fine Hitch.. it's good for a laugh and it's good to lighten it up a bit.

We haven't really talked about IRESISTABLE GRACE yet..

 

[Eventide]

Unconditional Election makes no sense when we see that the Lord Jesus Christ IS the elect of God.. of course that's conditional, and the entire OT points to HIM and Him alone.. for in the volume of the book it is written of Me says the LORD..

See, that IS the myth.. that condemned men are the elect.. they're not.. we're ALL condemned in Adam.. and ALL justified freely IN CHRIST..

Why, because Christ alone is the elect of God, the Chosen One in whom He delights.