The term "Godhead."

[LeviR]

What I clearly see in the scriptures is the distinct individuality and exact relationship of YHWH God and Jesus. The scriptures clearly teach that there is one God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ of whom are all things (or who created all things). So what I believe is that there is one God and Father, and also that there is one Lord Jesus Christ. But these are two beings not one being. YHWH God and Jesus Christ are one, only in the sense of being in harmony, or one(united) in a common purpose.

You are not far from the kingdom of God.

 

[BB1956]

Free said,
"maybe it's because Jesus is Yahweh in human flesh. [/QUOTE\]

I understand that there are those that believe it was God that became human, that Jesus Christ was YHWH GOd in human flesh.

That's the difference between us, I believe it was the only begotten Son of God that became human. So I believe it's the only begotten Son of God who was sent by his Father YHWH God. I believe it was the only begotten Son of God who came to mankind. I don't believe YHWH God sent himself to mankind.

 

[LeviR]

Free said,
"maybe it's because Jesus is Yahweh in human flesh. [/QUOTE\]

I understand that there are those that believe it was God that became human, that Jesus Christ was YHWH GOd in human flesh.

That's the difference between us, I believe it was the only begotten Son of God that became human. So I believe it's the only begotten Son of God who was sent by his Father YHWH God. I believe it was the only begotten Son of God who came to mankind. I don't believe YHWH God sent himself to mankind.

Correct. Jesus was born, his God and Father was not.

 

[Free]

Free said,
"maybe it's because Jesus is Yahweh in human flesh. [/QUOTE\]

I understand that there are those that believe it was God that became human, that Jesus Christ was YHWH GOd in human flesh.

That's the difference between us, I believe it was the only begotten Son of God that became human. So I believe it's the only begotten Son of God who was sent by his Father YHWH God. I believe it was the only begotten Son of God who came to mankind. I don't believe YHWH God sent himself to mankind.

I also believe that it was the only begotten Son of God that became human, but the Son is also Yahweh, just as the Father is, yet they are distinct. It is fallaciously begging the question to assume that only the Father is Yahweh, since that is nowhere stated in Scripture.

 

[Runningman]

It would be a piece of cake for God to overcome the world. But not for Jesus.

Yes and it isn't a piece of cake for us either, but we can still do it just like Jesus did.

1 John 5
4For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

 

[Free]

Correct. Jesus was born, his God and Father was not.

Correction: the eternal person of the Word became flesh, the Father did not.

 

[Josef]

Exactly. And Jesus not being God does not diminish Jesus' glory.

Hey All,

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Emmanuel - God with us.

How can Jesus be called this, and not be this?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[LeviR]

Correction: the eternal person of the Word became flesh, the Father did not.

“Eternally begotten” is self contradictory. That’s why the Bible doesn’t say it.

 

[Free]

“Eternally begotten” is self contradictory. That’s why the Bible doesn’t say it.

But that is the only conclusion, although, eternal generation is generally how it is stated. The Son existed prior to the creation of everything, which can only mean that he is eternal, just as the Father is. Scripture also tells us, among other things, that he is monogenes. Hence, he is eternally begotten. Is it difficult? Of course. It cannot be fully comprehended, but that doesn't mean it is contradictory.

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/is-the-eternal-generation-of-the-son-a-biblical-idea/

 

[Runningman]

Hey All,

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Emmanuel - God with us.

How can Jesus be called this, and not be this?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

There are many people in the Bible who have a name and it means something about God. There is Abijah in 1 Kings 14:1 where his name means "my father is YHWH." There is Adonijah in 2 Sam. 2:4 and his name means "YHWH is the Lord." And there are a lot of other names like this. So having a name about God doesn't make someone God. In Matthew 1:23, the definition of Emmanuel doesn't refer to Jesus being God.

 

[BB1956]

It is fallaciously begging the question to assume that only the Father is Yahweh, since that is nowhere stated in Scripture.

Jesus Christ Was praying to his Father who is God at John 17:3. It's my understanding that the Jews believed that Yahweh was the only true God so it's my understanding that it was Yahweh God who they prayed to. Jesus Christ there at John 17:3 said that the one he was praying too was the only true God, so Jesus Christ wasn't in any way saying he was Yahweh God. Also at John 20:17 after Jesus Christ had been resurrected from the dead he said he had a Father and God who was his apostles and disciples Father and God. Now as I said it was Yahweh God that the Jews believed to be the only true God and again Jesus Christ isn't saying he's Yahweh God.

 

[Free]

Jesus Christ Was praying to his Father who is God at John 17:3. It's my understanding that the Jews believed that Yahweh was the only true God so it's my understanding that it was Yahweh God who they prayed to. Jesus Christ there at John 17:3 said that the one he was praying too was the only true God, so Jesus Christ wasn't in any way saying he was Yahweh God.

Context matters.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (ESV)

First, notice that eternal life is in knowing both the Father and the Son. Second, that Jesus calls the Father "the only true God," does not preclude Jesus from also being truly God. This is proven by additional context:

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)

But, what did Yahweh say?

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. (ESV)

Is Jesus contradicting what Yahweh said? Let's first look at something John said:

Joh 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them.
Joh 12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
Joh 12:38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
Joh 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”
Joh 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. (ESV)

Who does John say Isaiah saw in "his glory and spoke of him"? Clearly, John is meaning that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus, or rather, the Son. Looking at the context of what Isaiah was talking about:

Isa 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3 And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”
Isa 6:4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
…
Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.”
Isa 6:9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people dull, and their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” (ESV)

So, who did Isaiah actually see? He saw Yahweh in all his glory. Yet, John says that Isaiah saw Jesus (the Son), which confirms that Jesus shared in the glory of the Father prior to creation. Once again, John supports what he said in John 1:1--that the Word was in intimate, interpersonal relationship with God for all eternity past, meaning that the Word is also God in nature. He then became flesh in the person of Jesus.

Also at John 20:17 after Jesus Christ had been resurrected from the dead he said he had a Father and God who was his apostles and disciples Father and God. Now as I said it was Yahweh God that the Jews believed to be the only true God and again Jesus Christ isn't saying he's Yahweh God.

Once again, context matters. A passage about the humanity of Christ that doesn’t preclude him from also being God. Remember, Jesus had already told them that he came from above, from the Father, in whose glory he shared before creation (all of which John also discusses in his prologue), and was going to return to the Father. He is simply returning to the place and position in glory from which he came.

Jesus says, “to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” He doesn’t use “our.” He is saying that is that his Father is now their Father but that there is a difference in relationship, in his sonship and theirs. His God is also their God, or, their God is his God, in that as a man, he still prayed to the Father as the one true God. But that in no way precludes Jesus from also being truly God. It is rather one of the main points of John’s gospel. Jesus is simply here stressing the new closeness of relationship between the disciples and God.

We see this in additional context:

Joh 20:24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
Joh 20:26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.”
Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (ESV)

The immediate context is of the resurrected Christ repeating Thomas's specific declarations for evidence back to him, despite Jesus not having been there when Thomas stated them, and then invites Thomas to investigate the evidence. The text literally reads: "Answered Thomas and said to Him 'The Lord of me and the God of me'." Thomas is clearly saying to Jesus that he is his Lord and his God.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/20.htm

In John's gospel, from the beginning to the end, Jesus is shown to be truly man and truly God.

 

[Indentured Servant]

But it does. Using similar reasoning, I could argue that only Jesus refers to himself as "the first and the last" in Rev 1:17 and 2:8, while God doesn't use that title of himself. So why would the title in Rev 22:13 suddenly be referring to God?

...

Logic and reason most certainly allow it; they demand it as they do with other passages.

Some have used that exact "reasoning." But to supplement the discussion, this is useful information:

Alpha & Omega are actually used in connection to our Creator, but no English translation reflects its appearance in Genesis 1:1 (and many other places) as having any meaning.

"In the beginning God created..."

"In the beginning, Elohyim (plural) Aleph-Tav (Hebrew equivalent to Alpha & Omega) created..." The Aleph-Tav identifies Elohyim, but is not translated in English.

The Hebrew word for create, and creator, is
'bar-a.'
Bar = son, and A (Aleph) refers to the Father.
Both Aleph-Tav and Bar-a depict the idea of a pair; and, the fact that Elohyim is plural is a certain agreement.

Another scripture that starts with, "in the beginning..." is John 1:1 which states the Word was with God And IS God. The same "pair" of Genesis 1:1.

The only argument against this I've ever seen is in the doctrinal interpretations of men which have no scriptural foundation.

 

[LeviR]

Jesus Christ Was praying to his Father who is God at John 17:3. It's my understanding that the Jews believed that Yahweh was the only true God so it's my understanding that it was Yahweh God who they prayed to. Jesus Christ there at John 17:3 said that the one he was praying too was the only true God, so Jesus Christ wasn't in any way saying he was Yahweh God. Also at John 20:17 after Jesus Christ had been resurrected from the dead he said he had a Father and God who was his apostles and disciples Father and God. Now as I said it was Yahweh God that the Jews believed to be the only true God and again Jesus Christ isn't saying he's Yahweh God.

What trinitarians fail to accept is the fact that everything that can be said of Jesus is due to what was given or appointed to him.

He was given to have life within himself.
He was given the children.
He was appointed a kingdom.etc, etc, etc

He was given, and given, and given,and appointed ,and given, Everything.
Names, offices, authority, control, EVERYTHING!

I’ve asked the Trinitarians to show me otherwise. They can’t.

 

[Josef]

There are many people in the Bible who have a name and it means something about God. There is Abijah in 1 Kings 14:1 where his name means "my father is YHWH." There is Adonijah in 2 Sam. 2:4 and his name means "YHWH is the Lord." And there are a lot of other names like this. So having a name about God doesn't make someone God. In Matthew 1:23, the definition of Emmanuel doesn't refer to Jesus being God.

Hey All,
I quoted the verse.
How many sons of virgins do you know?
To say that it doesn't apply to Jesus is incorrect.

Interpret Matthew 1:23 and show us how this does not apply to Jesus.
Whatever you choose to say must be in line with Matthew.
Matthew interprets what Emanuel means, and that it does apply to Jesus.
Remember, Scripture is the final authority.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[BB1956]

I disagree with what Free is saying in post #72 when he says, "that Jesus calls the Father "the only true God," does not preclude Jesus from also being truly God."[/QUOTE\]

In Jesus prayer to his heavenly Father, when Jesus called him “the only true God” and said: “Thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,” and, “we are one.” Did Jesus mean that he and his Father were one God, or two Persons of one triune God, the third member of which God is not even mentioned here? Did Jesus mean that he and his Father were, as trinitarians say, “one in substance”? How could that be in the face of what else Jesus, then of fleshly substance, said in this prayer to God who is spirit? (John 4:24) By calling his Father “the only true God” he shut himself out from being God or even a part or a Person of God. Otherwise, the Father would not be the “only true God.” The word “only” means, according to the dictionary, “alone in its class; without others of the same class or kind; sole; single; alone, by reason of superiority; pre-eminent; chief.” According to Jesus, his Father was, not only the “true God,” but also the “only” one. So according to his own words, Jesus did not class himself with God. Jesus is not a liar, when he said his Father is the only true God that's the truth, and since Jesus is praying to God when he said that then YHWH God is the only true God and YHWH God is Jesus Christ Father and God.

 

[Josef]

What trinitarians fail to accept is the fact that everything that can be said of Jesus is due to what was given or appointed to him.

He was given to have life within himself.
He was given the children.
He was appointed a kingdom.etc, etc, etc

He was given, and given, and given,and appointed ,and given, Everything.
Names, offices, authority, control, EVERYTHING!

I’ve asked the Trinitarians to show me otherwise. They can’t.

Hey All,
Challenge accepted.

John 1:2-4 The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jesus created all the things "given" to Him.
How do you give someone the things that exist because said someone created them?

If Jesus created all things, then all things are His "in the beginning."

All things, Jesus created the heavens and the earth.

Do a little research and you will find that Jesus was the legal heir and king of Israel through Mary.
So nobody had to appoint Jesus to the kingdom.

I don't know what you mean by "the children" other than Jesus said to suffer little children to come unto me. Matthew 19:14

Jesus raised Himself from the dead.

John 2:18-21 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.

Only God has the power of life.
Jesus has the power.

Jesus did not correct Thomas' declaration.

John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jesus accepted the declaration.
If Thomas had misspoke, Jesus should have corrected Thomas immediately.
Because if what Thomas said was not true, it would be blasphemy.
So Thomas spoke the truth.

Jesus was born of a virgin.
One of His names is Emanuel which Matthew interprets for us as "God with us."
Jesus created all things.
Jesus was the legal heir to the kingdom.
Jesus raised Himself from the dead.
Jesus accepted Thomas calling Him God.

Actually, I almost forgot the most important one.
He is in our hearts if we are believers.
Revelation 3:20

I know who Jesus is, and I am OK with it.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Free]

Any posts that mock the doctrine of the Trinity will result in immediate removal from the discussion, at a minimum.

 

[Runningman]

Hey All,
I quoted the verse.
How many sons of virgins do you know?
To say that it doesn't apply to Jesus is incorrect.

Interpret Matthew 1:23 and show us how this does not apply to Jesus.
Whatever you choose to say must be in line with Matthew.
Matthew interprets what Emanuel means, and that it does apply to Jesus.
Remember, Scripture is the final authority.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

The definition of the name Emmanuel is correct and you rightly showed the verse. I disagree that the definition of a name follows that someone is God or becomes God.

As far as the virgin birth goes, that also is not an indicator of deity since it says God acted on Mary in order for her to conceive and give birth to another human.

God could do this for any virgin woman if He wanted to and maybe He has? Not everything God has done is recorded in the Bible.

 

[Runningman]

What trinitarians fail to accept is the fact that everything that can be said of Jesus is due to what was given or appointed to him.

He was given to have life within himself.
He was given the children.
He was appointed a kingdom.etc, etc, etc

He was given, and given, and given,and appointed ,and given, Everything.
Names, offices, authority, control, EVERYTHING!

I’ve asked the Trinitarians to show me otherwise. They can’t.

yes, which means that Jesus didn't inherently have any of the things and attributes that people say is what makes him God. Jesus was actually a normal human who was empowered and anointed by God and he's the example of our highest potential. One day we will be like him too.