The true teachings of Jesus

[journeymanisnothing]

I'm just wondering

You have head knowledge about God, but do you know Him personally? Can you say He is your friend? Do you commune with Him at all, or is it all doctrine? Just an intellectual excercise?

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 Jn. 5:20 NKJ)

Hello Alfred Persson.
I explained to k keiw1 that with respect to "submission", 1Cor.15 is speaking of the resurrection.
Believers are already in submission to our Lord, but when all things are in submission, that is, when the last enemy, death, is destroyed, then everyone is submitted by the resurrection, because dearh is swallowed up by the resurrection.
Therefore, to be "submitted to Christ is to become like him.
Paul is saying Jesus will be seen in glory as God.
Can you see what Paul really means?

 

[Alfred Persson]

I'm just wondering

Hello Alfred Persson.
I explained to k keiw1 that with respect to "submission", 1Cor.15 is speaking of the resurrection.
Believers are already in submission to our Lord, but when all things are in submission, that is, when the last enemy, death, is destroyed, then everyone is submitted by the resurrection, because dearh is swallowed up by the resurrection.
Therefore, to be "submitted to Christ is to become like him.
Paul is saying Jesus will be seen in glory as God.
Can you see what Paul really means?

I don't agree. It is the "Son Himself" who also is subject to God, that God may be all in all:

27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:27-28 NKJ)

BUT KEIW1 is a Arian Jehovah's Witness, not an Orthodox Trinitarian as I am. While the Son willing subjects Himself to the Father, who had put all things under His feet while Jesus put an end to all rule and all authority and power not "of God", and then willingly is subjected to His Father, that does not make God the Son "sub-god" any more than a human son being subjected to his human father make him "sub-human".

While in the West its overlooked God the Father is the "Monarch" of the Holy Trinity, its implicit in His being truly the Father of Jesus and the One from whom the Holy Spirit proceeds. None of this changes the fact the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity are equally and fully God. That's where Arius erred, and all who follow him like the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I asked KEIW1 if he knows God personally, or is God just an intellectual concept, a dogma. KEIW1 only talks "head knowledge" about God, never referring to any personal relationship he has with God.

Christ and His disciples preached knowing God personally as our heavenly Father, as the God who loves us dearly. If God isn't personal to KEIW1, then his religion is not New Testament Christianity.

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 Jn. 5:20 NKJ)

Only those who know Jesus Personally know the True God and have eternal life.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I don't agree. It is the "Son Himself" who also is subject to God, that God may be all in all:

27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:27-28 NKJ)

BUT KEIW1 is a Arian Jehovah's Witness, not an Orthodox Trinitarian as I am. While the Son willing subjects Himself to the Father, who had put all things under His feet while Jesus put an end to all rule and all authority and power not "of God", and then willingly is subjected to His Father, that does not make God the Son "sub-god" any more than a human son being subjected to his human father make him "sub-human".

While in the West its overlooked God the Father is the "Monarch" of the Holy Trinity, its implicit in His being truly the Father of Jesus and the One from whom the Holy Spirit proceeds. None of this changes the fact the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity are equally and fully God. That's where Arius erred, and all who follow him like the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I asked KEIW1 if he knows God personally, or is God just an intellectual concept, a dogma. KEIW1 only talks "head knowledge" about God, never referring to any personal relationship he has with God.

Christ and His disciples preached knowing God personally as our heavenly Father, as the God who loves us dearly. If God isn't personal to KEIW1, then his religion is not New Testament Christianity.

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 Jn. 5:20 NKJ)

Only those who know Jesus Personally know the True God and have eternal life.

What you've said here is senseable, but I see this chapter a bit differently.
The contrast of superiorty and inferiorty in 1Cor.15 is between Jesus vs. Adam, not Father vs. Son. Before his incarnation, our Lord Jesus created Adam and put all things on earth under his feet. It's evident Christ is superior by defeating death.

Submission to our Father in the sense of obedience is what Jesus lived in the flesh and we are to follow him, yet the resurrection will reveal the nature of all.

I do believe Pauls' point is that we all will be seen in a way we weren't before.

 

[jaybo]

1Cor 15:24-28--Jesus must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father( at conclusion of Rev 20) and subject himself= forever.--God does not have a God.

Exactly what do you mean by "God". I'm perfectly serious. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, God in the flesh, these spiritual essence of God, or ..?

How do you explain John 4:24? "God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

[keiw1]

See, this is part of the problem of many offshoots of Christianity.

Our Lord didn't become wisdom (period)

Our Lord became wisdom to us (period)

See the difference?

He is still the one speaking at Proverbs 8, it is not God speaking so who else could it be? Who else deserves the title-Gods master worker but the one whom God created all other things through?

 

[keiw1]

You have head knowledge about God, but do you know Him personally? Can you say He is your friend? Do you commune with Him at all, or is it all doctrine? Just an intellectual excercise?

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 Jn. 5:20 NKJ)

The one being called the true God at the end of that is the one who is true=Jesus Father-YHWH(Jehovah) he alone is God.

 

[keiw1]

Exactly what do you mean by "God". I'm perfectly serious. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, God in the flesh, these spiritual essence of God, or ..?

How do you explain John 4:24? "God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

John 4:22-24 --where Jesus condemns all other Gods as false, then says-the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth---not Father, son and holy spirit, just the Father.

 

[for_his_glory]

Isaiah 9:6--His name means something different than him. Like at Heb 1:3-4--Without inheriting a name above the angels, he is equal to them. He inherited his name by his God and Father doing all the works through him-Acts 2:22, 1Cor 8:5-6. Aswell-John 5:30--. He can do 0 of his own inititive. He is not God. He only does the Fathers will. That is how they are one= in purpose.

It was you that asked where Jesus was called Immanuel in scripture.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Do you refute all these scriptures?

 

[for_his_glory]

I know the Hebrew scholars will not say it translates possessed. Demons possess, God doesnt.

possess: have as belonging to one

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (makes us God's special possession)

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't agree. It is the "Son Himself" who also is subject to God, that God may be all in all:

27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15:27-28 NKJ)

BUT KEIW1 is a Arian Jehovah's Witness, not an Orthodox Trinitarian as I am. While the Son willing subjects Himself to the Father, who had put all things under His feet while Jesus put an end to all rule and all authority and power not "of God", and then willingly is subjected to His Father, that does not make God the Son "sub-god" any more than a human son being subjected to his human father make him "sub-human".

While in the West its overlooked God the Father is the "Monarch" of the Holy Trinity, its implicit in His being truly the Father of Jesus and the One from whom the Holy Spirit proceeds. None of this changes the fact the Three Persons of the Holy Trinity are equally and fully God. That's where Arius erred, and all who follow him like the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I asked KEIW1 if he knows God personally, or is God just an intellectual concept, a dogma. KEIW1 only talks "head knowledge" about God, never referring to any personal relationship he has with God.

Christ and His disciples preached knowing God personally as our heavenly Father, as the God who loves us dearly. If God isn't personal to KEIW1, then his religion is not New Testament Christianity.

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 Jn. 5:20 NKJ)

Only those who know Jesus Personally know the True God and have eternal life.

Jehovah Witness do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they follow a strict monotheism, in which: Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.

But yet, You being a Cessationalist do not believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today as those gifts died along with all the Apostles so what makes any difference in both of you believing false doctrines.

 

[Free]

1Cor 15:24-28--Jesus must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father( at conclusion of Rev 20) and subject himself= forever.--God does not have a God.

Of course God doesn't have a God, but Jesus--"God with us;" God Incarnate--taught monothesim, which doesn't preclude him from also being God. Phil 2:5-8 is a very key passage in understanding who Jesus was prior to the Incarnation, and who he was after. It would be nice if you would actually start addressing the arguments I have been making.

 

[keiw1]

It was you that asked where Jesus was called Immanuel in scripture.

Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God:
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8

Do you refute all these scriptures?

I refute trinity translation errors 100%, so does Jesus-John 20:17, Rev 3:12

 

[keiw1]

possess: have as belonging to one

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. (makes us God's special possession)

Jehovah produced Jesus as his only begotten son( created direct-first and last) possessed is error. prov 8:25 brought forth with labor pains proves it is talking about him being created.. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation-creation occurred at the beginning.

 

[keiw1]

Of course God doesn't have a God, but Jesus--"God with us;" God Incarnate--taught monothesim, which doesn't preclude him from also being God. Phil 2:5-8 is a very key passage in understanding who Jesus was prior to the Incarnation, and who he was after. It would be nice if you would actually start addressing the arguments I have been making.

Even the psalmist knew Jesus has a God-Psalm 45:7-- so in the OT he has a God, NT he has a God, back in heaven he has a God--When was he God?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

He is still the one speaking at Proverbs 8, it is not God speaking so who else could it be? Who else deserves the title-Gods master worker but the one whom God created all other things through?

Wisdom is a quality. Jesus isn't a quality. I asked if you know the difference between being made wisdom and made wisdom to us and apparently you don't know the difference.

 

[Free]

I refute trinity translation errors 100%, so does Jesus-John 20:17, Rev 3:12

You haven't actually refuted anything. You have ignored the vast majority, if not all, of the arguments. Simply posting verses does not constitute a refutation, especially since the doctrine of the Trinity takes all those verses into account.

Jehovah produced Jesus as his only begotten son( created direct-first and last) possessed is error. prov 8:25 brought forth with labor pains proves it is talking about him being created.. Jesus is the firstborn of all creation-creation occurred at the beginning.

"Begotten" does not mean created.

Even the psalmist knew Jesus has a God-Psalm 45:7-- so in the OT he has a God, NT he has a God, back in heaven he has a God--

Who is being spoken of in this Psalm here?

Psalm 102:26 They will perish, but you will remain; Just like a garment they will all wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away. 27 But you are the same, and your years will never end. 28 The children of your servants will dwell securely, And their offspring will be firmly established before you.” (NWT)

When was he God?

He has always been God. God can never cease to be God or he isn't God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jehovah Witness do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they follow a strict monotheism, in which: Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.

But yet, You being a Cessationalist do not believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today as those gifts died along with all the Apostles so what makes any difference in both of you believing false doctrines.

Did the writer of Hebrews believe false doctrines?

He wrote the signs confirming the apostles words had ceased. The gospel "was confirmed" [past tense, had ceased to occur at the time of writing} :

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

The one being called the true God at the end of that is the one who is true=Jesus Father-YHWH(Jehovah) he alone is God.

Do you commune with your heavenly Father?

 

[jaybo]

John 4:22-24 --where Jesus condemns all other Gods as false, then says-the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth---not Father, son and holy spirit, just the Father.

Right. "the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth"; that is how they will worship.

However, I wrote: exactly what do you mean by "God". I'm perfectly serious. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, God in the flesh, these spiritual essence of God, or ..? Not how people will worship, but who is "God".

You didn't answer the question by stating whom people will worship. And you didn't include the first part of John 4:24, "God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

[for_his_glory]

Did the writer of Hebrews believe false doctrines?

He wrote the signs confirming the apostles words had ceased. The gospel "was confirmed" [past tense, had ceased to occur at the time of writing} :

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)

and what part of those scriptures say anything about the gifts of the Holy Spirit no longer being given. See, your doctrine in whomever teaches you is just as flawed as the JW, As long as the Holy Spirit indwells us God's Spirit will always work in us and through us as the gifts have never cease.

Hebrews 2:1-4 is a warning against neglecting salvation