The true teachings of Jesus

[Alfred Persson]

and what part of those scriptures say anything about the gifts of the Holy Spirit no longer being given. See, you doctrine is just as flared as the JW, As long as the Holy Spirit indwells us God's Spirit will always work in us and through us they they never cease.

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)

 

[for_his_glory]

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)

Please do not make others post bold and in color as that is not your place to do as I never made my post that I posted to you bold or in color. Just because you did that does not mean anything other then what was being said about not neglecting salvation.

It is not our will in the working of the Spiritual gifts, but that of the Holy Spirit speaking or working through us, but yet again you have been taught by man's doctrine that they no longer exist so I am done with this conversation. Just pointing out there is no difference between what Cessationalist believe or JW believe as it they have strayed away from truth as being deceived by the false teachers that are out there. It would do us all good to believe that which has already been written.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Please do not make others post bold and in color as that is not your place to do as I never made my post that I posted to you bold or in color. Just because you did that does not mean anything other then what was being said about not neglecting salvation.

It is not our will in the working of the Spiritual gifts, but that of the Holy Spirit speaking or working through us, but yet again you have been taught by man's doctrine that they no longer exist so I am done with this conversation. Just pointing out there is no difference between what Cessationalist believe or JW believe as it they have strayed away from truth as being deceived by the false teachers that are out there. It would do us all good to believe that which has already been written.

Don't blame me if users use the bold and font options of the forum, which is their choice and not yours to decide.

I bolded in red gifts of the Spirit because you claimed the gifts of the Spirit were NOT in that text.

One must be blind to claim that:

and what part of those scriptures say anything about the gifts of the Holy Spirit no longer being given. See, you doctrine is just as flared as the JW, As long as the Holy Spirit indwells us God's Spirit will always work in us and through us they they never cease.

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)

Cessationism was the prevailing view of the Church until the "last days." All the great doctors of the faith since the 1st century onward, were Cessationists. Only a few odd groups with strange doctrines appeared now and again, to proclaim "continuism."


But continuism is contradicted when anything is said to have been unique to the apostles. THAT is what the writer of Hebrews did, he said the gospel of Christ WAS CONFIRMED (past tense) by God through the apostles, with signs wonders, miracles AND gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Continuism wasn't true even in the 1st century, clearly God did special signs wonders and gave out gifts of the Holy Spirit that other evangelists could not do, to certify THEY preached the true gospel.

You keep calling "orthodoxy" heresy, and link it with Jehovah's Witnesses. But what about the link Charismania and Jehovah's Witnesses share---both made their appearance about the same time, in these end times the bible calls the "last days."

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
(Matt. 7:15-23 NKJ)

 

[for_his_glory]

Don't blame me if users use the bold and font options of the forum, which is their choice and not yours to decide.

I bolded in red gifts of the Spirit because you claimed the gifts of the Spirit were NOT in that text.

One must be blind to claim that:

I don't care why you bolded parts of my post, or anyone else's, but that you can not put emphasis on another members post as it can change what was being said by them. This is a violation of the ToS 1.1 and part of 1.4. and if you continue from this point on your post will be deleted in violation of the ToS and you will be banned from any thread you do this in. Let this be a warning to you.

 

[for_his_glory]

Don't blame me if users use the bold and font options of the forum, which is their choice and not yours to decide.

I bolded in red gifts of the Spirit because you claimed the gifts of the Spirit were NOT in that text.

One must be blind to claim that:


3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)

Cessationism was the prevailing view of the Church until the "last days." All the great doctors of the faith since the 1st century onward, were Cessationists. Only a few odd groups with strange doctrines appeared now and again, to proclaim "continuism."


But continuism is contradicted when anything is said to have been unique to the apostles. THAT is what the writer of Hebrews did, he said the gospel of Christ WAS CONFIRMED (past tense) by God through the apostles, with signs wonders, miracles AND gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Continuism wasn't true even in the 1st century, clearly God did special signs wonders and gave out gifts of the Holy Spirit that other evangelists could not do, to certify THEY preached the true gospel.

You keep calling "orthodoxy" heresy, and link it with Jehovah's Witnesses. But what about the link Charismania and Jehovah's Witnesses share---both made their appearance about the same time, in these end times the bible calls the "last days."

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
(Matt. 7:15-23 NKJ)

1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Where in 1 Corinthians 12 was it written that only the Apostles received these gifts and are no longer in operation?

 

[jaybo]

1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Where in 1 Corinthians 12 was it written that only the Apostles received these gifts and are no longer in operation?

Saying that the gifts of the Spirit (not you, but others) are no longer in operation is absurd to those of us who have received those gifts. It's as simple as that. Adjusting one's doctrine to what one incorrectly believes is very sad.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't care why you bolded parts of my post, or anyone else's, but that you can not put emphasis on another members post as it can change what was being said by them. This is a violation of the ToS 1.1 and part of 1.4. and if you continue from this point on your post will be deleted in violation of the ToS and you will be banned from any thread you do this in. Let this be a warning to you.

I apologize, didn't know that was a violation. Won't do it again.

 

[for_his_glory]

I refute trinity translation errors 100%, so does Jesus-John 20:17, Rev 3:12

so even though you have not read any of those verses I posted you would rather believe they are in error!!!

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Do you just pick scripture out of the air as neither one of those two scriptures say anything about Jesus saying anything about any errors. What you do not realize is that JW's have rewritten their own Bible adding to and taking away from scripture. I know this for a fact as my sister was involved with them at one time, but then realized the errors of The Watchtower Organization which teaches that it is God's sole earthly representative.

This is their teaching on the Trinity as it's no wonder that you refute those scriptures I gave you.

They do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they follow a strict monotheism, in which: Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human form as a man like any other person, except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe that after the crucifixion, Christ died and was resurrected as an invisible, non-material, glorious, spirit creature. They believe that Jesus appeared on earth after his resurrection in a special body that Jehovah created for him.

The Holy Spirit they believe, is not a separate entity, but is simply a force: the method by which God interacts with the world.

 

[for_his_glory]

I apologize, didn't know that was a violation. Won't do it again.

Thank you.

 

[for_his_glory]

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)

Repeating and making bold the same scriptures over and over does not answer my question about 1 Corinthians 12 as you give no explanation other then those who have taught you the gifts no longer exist.

1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The Holy Spirit is much alive indwelling and working these same signs and wonders through every man that the Spirit of God chooses to work through.

 

[jaybo]

Repeating and making bold the same scriptures over and over does not answer my question about 1 Corinthians 12 as you give no explanation other then those who have taught you the gifts no longer exist.

1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The Holy Spirit is much alive indwelling and working these same signs and wonders through every man that the Spirit of God chooses to work through.

Great post! Very true!

As I have pointed out elsewhere, it saddens me that people don't believe what the Bible clearly says. Faith is living and active. We exist (present tense) in the body of Christ as His dearly loved children. He gives us (present tense) gifts as He chooses, just as every father gives gifts to his children.

"For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba, Father.” Romans 8:15

"And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, who calls “Abba! Father!” Galatians 4:6

 

[for_his_glory]

Great post! Very true!

As I have pointed out elsewhere, it saddens me that people don't believe what the Bible clearly says. Faith is living and active. We exist (present tense) in the body of Christ as His dearly loved children. He gives us (present tense) gifts as He chooses, just as every father gives gifts to his children.

"For you did not receive the spirit of slavery leading again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba, Father.” Romans 8:15

"And because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, who calls “Abba! Father!” Galatians 4:6

Man will believe man's doctrines as it makes sense to them, but yet no truth is found in them. I miss it at times in how I understand things, but the Holy Spirit always sends me correction. Usually using others that have a greater Spiritual knowledge then I have.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Repeating and making bold the same scriptures over and over does not answer my question about 1 Corinthians 12 as you give no explanation other then those who have taught you the gifts no longer exist.

1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The Holy Spirit is much alive indwelling and working these same signs and wonders through every man that the Spirit of God chooses to work through.

I answered you perfectly, there are gifts of the Holy Spirit unique to the apostles. Other gifts remain today.

As you note, God wills who gets what gifts; Therefore God willed which ceased with the apostles and which remain with us today.

They all were given to the profit of the church in every age.

The writer of Hebrews observed those gifts and signs and wonders unique to the apostles, had already ceased---"WAS CONFIRMED" is past tense.

"WAS CONFIRMED" means they had ceased = Cessationism, the Orthodox opinion of the church until these "last days."

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NK

Scripture cannot be nullified. Until the rise of something that has a slight likeness to the signs and wonders in the NT, appeared in these last days, no one argued for "continualism". They didn't because the bible clearly contradicts the theory.

But exactly as Holy Scripture predicted, few care about scripture when it disagrees with them. They simply ignore it and follow their experiences, claiming all who don't follow them in their folly are heretical or worse. That was predicted to happen in the end time also.

 

[for_his_glory]

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NK

Read the full instead of a couple verses that do not even have to do with the gifts of the Spirit found written in 1Corinthians 12. Hebrews 2:1-4 is about a warning against neglecting salvation.


Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

God still continues even today bearing witness of Himself through everything that is written in vs. 4. The gifts ceased with the Apostles when they died because they were dead, but yet continues in all that theses signs and wonders continue today as a witness unto God as people testify of God's power and authority in our lives.

1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Strong's Concordance
apostolos: a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle
Original Word: ἀπόστολος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: apostolos
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os'-tol-os)
Definition: a messenger, one sent on a mission, an apostle
Usage: a messenger, envoy, delegate, one commissioned by another to represent him in some way, especially a man sent out by Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel; an apostle.

There are more apostles, since the first ones that were called that have been sent out and continue to be sent out before the return of Christ.

 

[for_his_glory]

there are gifts of the Holy Spirit unique to the apostles. Other gifts remain today.

What are these gifts that were unique to the apostles and what other ones remain today? Can you list them?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Read the full instead of a couple verses that do not even have to do with the gifts of the Spirit found written in 1Corinthians 12. Hebrews 2:1-4 is about a warning against neglecting salvation.


Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

God still continues even today bearing witness of Himself through everything that is written in vs. 4. The gifts ceased with the Apostles when they died because they were dead, but yet continues in all that theses signs and wonders continue today as a witness unto God as people testify of God's power and authority in our lives.

I will focus on your direct rebuttal of my argument "was confirmed" = the special gifts only the apostles received (not the entire church) were spoken of "past tense" because they no longer existed from the perspective of the writer of Hebrews.

Your argument "they ceased with the apostles because they were dead" doesn't explain why the writer of Hebrews, speaking to Jews in Church, would say God's confirming His gospel with signs had ended, IF everyone in the congregation still manifested the same "confirming signs" as the Apostles.

So that is what you must explain. Why speak of these special confirming gifts of the Spirit in the past tense, if they were still present in the church reading this epistle.

 

[Alfred Persson]

What are these gifts that were unique to the apostles and what other ones remain today? Can you list them?

Yes, the Revelatory gifts listed as destined to cease, in 1 Corinthians 13:8

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. (1 Cor. 13:8 NKJ)

 

[for_his_glory]

I will focus on your direct rebuttal of my argument "was confirmed" = the special gifts only the apostles received (not the entire church) were spoken of "past tense" because they no longer existed from the perspective of the writer of Hebrews.

Your argument "they ceased with the apostles because they were dead" doesn't explain why the writer of Hebrews, speaking to Jews in Church, would say God's confirming His gospel with signs had ended, IF everyone in the congregation still manifested the same "confirming signs" as the Apostles.

So that is what you must explain. Why speak of these special confirming gifts of the Spirit in the past tense, if they were still present in the church reading this epistle.

If you can not answer a simple question that I ask you as in what were these special gifts that you say only the Apostles had and no one else then how could any further discussion continue. You seem to have a hard time answering others who ask you directed questions about things you propose to be true as you would rather skirt around them, why is that? If you do not know then just say so as there is no shame in not knowing something like what these gifts are that ceased with the Apostles.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, the Revelatory gifts listed as destined to cease, in 1 Corinthians 13:8

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. (1 Cor. 13:8 NKJ)

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The meaning of vs 8 is found in vs 10 as when Christ returns all these things will vanish away except for love as love is eternal. We can certainly see that Christ has not returned yet so all those things listed in vs 8 will continue to be done in part as no one has knowledge in the full until He returns then all things will be revealed to us in full.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If you can not answer a simple question that I ask you as in what were these special gifts that you say only the Apostles had and no one else

I asked you the simple question, answer it now. How could the writer of Hebrews say only the Apostles manifested the confirming signs, that the gospel "was confirmed" by what they did....

Which necessitates what the church was doing when Hebrews was written, was NOT the same thing. God's confirming the gospel through signs and wonders and gifts of the Holy Spirit were in the past---"was confirmed".

Logically, what the Apostles did was NOT what the Hebrews were doing when this was written, it happened in the past: Was Confirmed.