The true teachings of Jesus

[Alfred Persson]

When am I deflecting anything. God will work His signs and wonders through whom He chooses and who are we to question who He wants to work through others. Doctors can also be instruments of God's hands as many have been brought back to life and are now walking testimonies of God's power and authority that works through others.

My own husband would be dead right now if it wasn't for the technology of the breathing tube that kept him alive until he could breath on his own after a horrific auto accident that he should have died from. So don't tell me God does not work through life saving technology.

I believe God providentially heals through modern medicine. But that is irrelevant, immaterial and utterly incompetent when answering the question: "Does God heal through Apostles today exactly like He did in the 1st century"?

Point me to those apostles raising the certifiably dead, today as they did in the 1st century. ONLY then have you proved your case.

 

[Alfred Persson]

We can certainly see that most who reply to you do not agree with you or the teachings of Cessationism.

Excuse me!!! We do address your points and even ask you questions, but you refuse to answer them and then you want us to answer your questions. It doesn't work that way sir. You do not want to discuss, but only push your beliefs on others.

We could argue all day if I answered your objections.

OR you could prove me horribly wrong by answering this precisely :

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)

You claim "was confirmed" means the special gifts the apostles received ceased with the apostles because they were dead when this was written.

However, THAT doesn't explain why the writer of Hebrews would imply these gifts had ceased by speaking of them in "the past tense", "WAS CONFIRMED."

IF everyone in the congregation still manifested the same "confirming signs" as the Apostles, that its impossible the text read "was confirmed" instead of "still are confirmed."

So that is what you must explain. Why speak of these special confirming gifts of the Spirit in the past tense, if they were still present in the church reading this epistle.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Only YHWH(Jehovah) is called LORD all capitols, Jesus never was.

38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?"
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. (Jn. 12:38-41 NKJ)

1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!"
4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
5 So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts." (Isa. 6:1-5 NKJ)

 

[hawkman]

We could argue all day if I answered your objections.

OR you could prove me horribly wrong by answering this precisely :

3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 NKJ)

You claim "was confirmed" means the special gifts the apostles received ceased with the apostles because they were dead when this was written.

However, THAT doesn't explain why the writer of Hebrews would imply these gifts had ceased by speaking of them in "the past tense", "WAS CONFIRMED."

IF everyone in the congregation still manifested the same "confirming signs" as the Apostles, that its impossible the text read "was confirmed" instead of "still are confirmed."

So that is what you must explain. Why speak of these special confirming gifts of the Spirit in the past tense, if they were still present in the church reading this epistle.

Did you see where it said apostles in the book of Hebrews ? What I see in the verse Heb2:3 is " those that heard him" meaning anyone who heard Jesus speak not just apostles .

 

[Alfred Persson]

Did you see where it said apostles in the book of Hebrews ? What I see in the verse Heb2:3 is " those that heard him" meaning anyone who heard Jesus speak not just apostles .

"was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,"

The Apostles are implied, as the signs confirming the gospel was "to us" Hebrews.

Those who heard "Him" (God) through apostolic preaching confirmed by signs wonders and gifts of the Spirit.

If everyone did the same "signs wonders" and manifested the same "gifts of the Spirit", then God did NOT confirm what truly is His Word "to us [the Hebrews]".

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I've talked to many JW inviting them into my house, even sharing the word with them. Some you get through to and others will not leave the teachings of the Watchtower as they do not want to be disfellowshipped.

I had no problem answering their questions, but they couldn't answer mine. That should cause people to examine their beliefs.
I also found they were reluctant to admit they believed anyone who doesn't belong to their church isn't saved.

 

[jaybo]

I learned from the teachers Jesus appointed-Matt 24:45--- God wont accept any less than being worshipped in spirit and TRUTH-John 4:22-24-- Truth has become abundant ( Daniel 12:4) here in these last days, through the teachers that Jesus appointed.

a) We all read the Bible and learn from it.
b) You didn't answer my question: are you seriously suggesting that you know God's truth 100% and that those who disagree with you will not enter God's kingdom? And the truths you share are pure reality?

 

[jaybo]

Deflection is evading the question. The question is: "Does God work signs and wonders through apostles and prophets today as He did in the 1st century," not whether God works through medical doctors.

The answer is yes. Next.

 

[jaybo]

"was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,"

The Apostles are implied, as the signs confirming the gospel was "to us" Hebrews.

Those who heard "Him" (God) through apostolic preaching confirmed by signs wonders and gifts of the Spirit.

If everyone did the same "signs wonders" and manifested the same "gifts of the Spirit", then God did NOT confirm what truly is His Word "to us [the Hebrews]".

Are you a "Hebrew"?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Are you a "Hebrew"?

No. Its the Epistle to the Hebrews. Taking that as correct, "us" would be "Hebrews".

 

[Alfred Persson]

The answer is yes. Next.

Yes, so you claim. I asked for proof. If Christian Apostles were raising the dead as Jesus did, there would lots of websites detailing the events.

 

[hawkman]

"was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,"

The Apostles are implied, as the signs confirming the gospel was "to us" Hebrews.

Those who heard "Him" (God) through apostolic preaching confirmed by signs wonders and gifts of the Spirit.

If everyone did the same "signs wonders" and manifested the same "gifts of the Spirit", then God did NOT confirm what truly is His Word "to us [the Hebrews]".

How you can see apostles implied is beyond me . The word apostles does not even appear in the whole 13 chapters of the book of Hebrews !
I had a question for you that you missed in post #269, here it is again.

Was the Philip spoken of in Acts 8:6 an apostle ? Yes or No .

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, so you claim. I asked for proof. If Christian Apostles were raising the dead as Jesus did, there would lots of websites detailing the events.

Here are two Christian Apostles
Acts 9:36-43 (Peter)
Acts 20:7-12 (Paul)

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. those from death,

We can read many cases in the OT where many were raised from the dead as it is not we who raise them, but God who brings them back to life. Not everything is recorded on websites, but there are hundreds of testimonies from those who have come back to life.

Bringing someone back from the dead is not beyond God's power today. Since God is still capable of raising the dead, then yes, raising the dead is still possible today and continues to happen.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Was the Philip spoken of in Acts 8:6 an apostle ? Yes or No .

No, as the context shows. And doing miracles was something Christ authorized the Seventy to do, and no doubt they with Philip were among the 120 in the upper room. But even so, it required Apostles for those Philip preached to, to receive the Holy Spirit:

5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them.
6 And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great,
10 to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God."
11 And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(Acts 8:5-16 NKJ)


So what is your big point? Context proves the Apostles had unique authority, as God documented in Samaria.

Why Philip baptized them only in the name of Jesus is not explained.

But it is clear, when the Apostles went to be with the LORD, the things only they could do---- would cease.

 

[jaybo]

No. Its the Epistle to the Hebrews. Taking that as correct, "us" would be "Hebrews".

This doesn't make sense to me. It's written specifically to the Hebrews. While we may read it and learn from what we read, it is not written to us.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Here are two Christian Apostles
Acts 9:36-43 (Peter)
Acts 20:7-12 (Paul)

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. those from death,

We can read many cases in the OT where many were raised from the dead as it is not we who raise them, but God who brings them back to life. Not everything is recorded on websites, but there are hundreds of testimonies from those who have come back to life.

Bringing someone back from the dead is not beyond God's power today. Since God is still capable of raising the dead, then yes, raising the dead is still possible today and continues to happen.

God can always raise the dead. That isn't the point.

You claim the church has Apostles just like the twelve, who raise the dead today. If that were the case, then they would be in the news just as the Twelve Apostles were in their day.

Compare:
"For the king, before whom I also speak freely, knows these things; for I am convinced that none of these things escapes his attention, since this thing was not done in a corner. (Acts 26:26 NKJ)

Events like this got everyone's attention:

12 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.
13 Yet none of the rest dared join them, but the people esteemed them highly.
14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women,
15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them.
16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed. (Acts 5:12-16 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

This doesn't make sense to me. It's written specifically to the Hebrews. While we may read it and learn from what we read, it is not written to us.

Read it again, even your words make the equation "us" = "Hebrews" correct. Think about it. Do it like a math problem. Its written to Hebrews. The word "us" appears. They wouldn't be Iranians.

But in reality there is much that is unclear about the book of Hebrews. No doubt Gentiles are included in the "us". I made an argument from the premises in front of us. Book of Hebrews, "us" therefore likely "Hebrews" also. But actually, no one is certain because the book doesn't detail who wrote it, and to whom it was written.

You focused on the least material part of my argument, for what purpose I don't know. Perhaps you will explain.

 

[jaybo]

Yes, so you claim. I asked for proof. If Christian Apostles were raising the dead as Jesus did, there would lots of websites detailing the events.

You asked if God work signs and wonders through apostles and prophets today as He did in the 1st century and I answered in the affirmative. I was personally healed in the hospital when a pastor asked Jesus to heal me. I had an "unbreakable" asthma spasm -- the doctors couldn't break it -- but when she prayed "Jesus, heal this man", the spasm broke immediately. As a matter of interest, I was a confirmed atheist when that happened.

You can believe or not, but God is not limited by your lack of faith.

 

[jaybo]

God can always raised the dead. That isn't the point. You claim the church has Apostles just like the twelve, who raise the dead today. If that were the case, then they would be in the news just as the Twelve Apostles were in their day.

for his glory is correct. And you agree with her in your first sentence: God can always raised the dead. That is the point. Theorizing otherwise doesn't mean a thing.

 

[jaybo]

Read it again, even your words make the equation "us" = "Hebrews" correct. Think about it. Do it like a math problem. Its written to Hebrews. The word "us" appears. They wouldn't be Iranians.

But in reality there is much that is unclear about the book of Hebrews. No doubt Gentiles are included in the "us". I made an argument from the premises in front of us. Book of Hebrews, "us" therefore likely "Hebrews" also. But actually, no one is certain because the book doesn't detail who wrote it, and to whom it was written clearly.

How does "it is not written to us" mean it is written to us? The rest of your post makes no sense. Now you're claiming that the epistle written to the Hebrews means it's also written to the Gentiles. That makes zero sense. It is the Epistle to the Hebrews!