The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[Hospes]

What is it that you see in the scriptures that causes a person to become alive in Christ?


JLB

In the following passages, I see explicit agency excercised only by God, so I think God causes a person to become alive in Christ.
1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Ephesians 2:4–5
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Colossians 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Ezekiel 36:22–27
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

[Hospes]

Did you see the scriptures I quoted that are used interchagably with believe and obey?

Yes I did, and at times it is certainly warranted. Did you see my note regarding the Greek words translated "obey" and how they differ?

BTW, what conclusion(s) do you draw from the words being interchangable?

 

[stovebolts]

I don't see Ps. 139 supporting the creationist idea. Rom. 5 and 7 support the idea of inherited sin. When children are too young to know anything, they already start sinning. Children have to be taught to do right. They don't have to be taught to do wrong, because they do that by nature. This is proof that we are all born with a sinful nature. Eph. 2 says we were by nature children of wrath (prior to conversion). It's not that we merely deserved the wrath of God due to a sinful act, but it says "by nature." Rom. 3 declares that none are righteous - none, and that includes those too young to know anything.
TD

How do you see psalm 139?
BTW, who taught Adam to sin?

 

[Hospes]

BTW, who taught Adam to sin?

Eve?

 

[tdidymas]

How do you see psalm 139?
BTW, who taught Adam to sin?

Ps 139 tells of God's omniscience and omnipresence, and is an expression of personal relationship between David and God. What it does not do is to say that children are born perfect and without a nature to sin.

Adam was created without sin, which means he had an ability to sin, but also had ability to not sin. Since his fall, he lost the ability to not sin, and all his descendants did not have the ability to not sin, and is the reason why Jesus and the apostles tell us we're sinners. Rom. 11:32 says "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Therefore everyone has the inclination to sin, and everyone does it. That is proof that we all have a sinful nature.

But no one taught Adam to sin, since Paul says he was not deceived. That infers that Adam sinned with full knowledge of what he was doing. What was the motive? We don't know, except he said "the woman gave it to me, and I ate." Perhaps it was a "scientific experiment." Anything beyond what scripture says is speculation.

Of course, Christ has set free only believers from bondage to the sinful nature, but only to the extent that He gives us power to overcome it by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. This is called growing in spiritual maturity, but I'm sure you already know that.
TD

 

[Hospes]

Of course, Christ has set free only believers from bondage to the sinful nature, but only to the extent that He gives us power to overcome it by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. This is called growing in spiritual maturity, but I'm sure you already know that.

I would tag on one thing:

Unforgiven sin is the only thing that will doom a person to Hell. For those "born of God", the bondage of unforgiven sin is forever broken from the moment of regeneration. There's a reason they call it good news!

 

[JLB]

In the following passages, I see explicit agency excercised only by God, so I think God causes a person to become alive in Christ.
1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Ephesians 2:4–5
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Colossians 2:13
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Ezekiel 36:22–27
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

God certainly is the author and finisher of our faith.

However, He doesn’t do it apart from our active participation; apart from our obedience.

Paul calls this the obedience of faith.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23



But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26


IOW, we must obey the Gospel to be saved; to be made alive in Christ.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!”
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:9-16



JLB

 

[JLB]

Yes I did, and at times it is certainly warranted. Did you see my note regarding the Greek words translated "obey" and how they differ?

BTW, what conclusion(s) do you draw from the words being interchangable?

That believing without obeying is useless.

It’s actually called “demonic believing”, and is what many people are engaged in, thanks to false teachings in the Church.


You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:19


Demons believe Jesus rose from the dead, and that He is Lord, however they continue to obey Satan, so therefore Satan is their lord.


This is the point Paul makes in Romans where he says...

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16


If we believe Jesus is Lord by do not obey Him, then He is not our Lord.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Ps 139 tells of God's omniscience and omnipresence, and is an expression of personal relationship between David and God. What it does not do is to say that children are born perfect and without a nature to sin.

That's a very interesting way to put it. This sounds very much like the narrative within the Garden (gen 2) where harmony between creation and God flourished. To your point, God called his creation both good and cumulatively, "very good". Nowhere in the creation account will you find the words perfect or sin nature.

However, the propensity to sin was with Adam from the inception of creation. Hence the commandment. A commandment prohibiting behavior would not be required if an offence were not likely. You see, it's not a matter of if, but when.

We could say then that a portion of Psalm 139 takes us back to the garden when humanity walked freely with God in perfect harmony and without blemish.

Psalm 139:18-19 NIV
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

We see that God created David's innermost being. Again, this was good, not perfect. It was God who 'knit' David within the womb. Again, not perfect, but good. David again attributes himself to being created by God, and gives God the glory for his goodness.

 

[stovebolts]

Eve?

James explains it this way.

James 1 NIV
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

 

[Hospes]

JLB,

Before we go further, I'd like to respectfully request that when either of us asks a non-rhetorical question, we will do our best to answer it. Otherwise, you have no idea if I am really listening to you with an intent to understand you and I have no clear indication you are listening to me. For instance, in post #251 I asked if you understood my position. Also, in post #262, I answered your question to me and then asked you a question. (Both questions are shown below.) You have not addressed either question, so I am wondering if you are really engaging in this discussion with an intent to understand me. If we do not make an honest effort to understand - not necessarily agree with - the other's position, then we can go forever just "talking past" one another.

Will you agree to this?

Let me know if you understand my view. Not necessarily you agree with it, just that you understand it. Even better, let me know if you find it unreasonable and, if so, how.

Yes I did, and at times it is certainly warranted. Did you see my note regarding the Greek words translated "obey" and how they differ?

BTW, what conclusion(s) do you draw from the words being interchangable?

 

[tdidymas]

That's a very interesting way to put it. This sounds very much like the narrative within the Garden (gen 2) where harmony between creation and God flourished. To your point, God called his creation both good and cumulatively, "very good". Nowhere in the creation account will you find the words perfect or sin nature.

However, the propensity to sin was with Adam from the inception of creation. Hence the commandment. A commandment prohibiting behavior would not be required if an offence were not likely. You see, it's not a matter of if, but when.

We could say then that a portion of Psalm 139 takes us back to the garden when humanity walked freely with God in perfect harmony and without blemish.

Psalm 139:18-19 NIV
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

We see that God created David's innermost being. Again, this was good, not perfect. It was God who 'knit' David within the womb. Again, not perfect, but good. David again attributes himself to being created by God, and gives God the glory for his goodness.

Our paths diverge here. I've already given the evidence that people are born with a sinful nature. And I disagree with your statement that Adam was created with the propensity to sin. Rom. 5:12 says that "sin entered the world through one man." But your idea is that sin (that is, the sin principle inherent in fallen human nature) already existed in Adam when he was created, by saying he was created with the propensity to sin. I don't agree with the idea that Adam was inclined to sin before his fall. One could argue that God is the author of sin, since he created man with that inclination, in that case. I don't believe that. So I am more inclined to the doctrine of traducianism than creationism. "You created my inmost being" doesn't support the creationist idea. It is simply an acknowledgement that God created all things and all people. Traducianism acknowledges that God created us by secondary means of natural processes established at the beginning of creation.
TD

 

[stovebolts]

Our paths diverge here. I've already given the evidence that people are born with a sinful nature.

I agree, our path do diverge from here. I would add this though, I don’t consider your evidence convincing. What I consider it is lacking in depth. True, you have put Passages beside each other to build the narrative to support a doctrine. But I don’t agree with the measure you used to put them side by side because from my understanding, the passages tell different stories and have little business beside one another to create a new narrative.

And I disagree with your statement that Adam was created with the propensity to sin. Rom. 5:12 says that "sin entered the world through one man."

I agree that sin entered the world through one man, Adam. And that is exactly what I am talking about. Adam had no sin in him until he disobeyed. Adam was created sinless, and then he sinned.

If Adam could not sin, then there would be no need for Gods command not to eat from the tree. If God commanded us to fly, then he would have equipped us with the means to fly. In this same way, God commands us to love him, and our neighbor. If we did not have the propensity to keep Gods commandments, either positive or negative he would not command them.

If Adam could not sin, then how did he sin?

But your idea is that sin (that is, the sin principle inherent in fallen human nature) already existed in Adam when he was created, by saying he was created with the propensity to sin.

No, that’s not my idea at all. We are on separate paths altogether.
When God created the earth, it was dark, and void. Yet he created the Garden, where God walked among his creation in perfect harmony. Outside of Eden was chaos, and Adams job was to expand Eden.

When Adam was exiled from the Garden, it was because he had fallen. The harmony that once existed was no more.

There are consequences for our actions and they often affect the innocent ones around us.

I don't agree with the idea that Adam was inclined to sin before his fall.

Considering the theology you follow, if I were on the same path as you, I would agree with you too. The question does remain though. Why would God make a commandment Adam couldn’t keep? And if Adam couldn’t sin, then how did he sin?

One could argue that God is the author of sin, since he created man with that inclination, in that case. I don't believe that. So I am more inclined to the doctrine of traducianism than creationism.

I certainly don’t agree that God is the author of sin and I don’t think I’d enjoy talking with anyone who believed he was. As far as traducianism, I don’t know how to pronounce it, let alone understand what it means. I also don’t understand your usage of the term creationism.

Traducianism acknowledges that God created us by secondary means of natural processes established at the beginning of creation.

Now I find that odd when it comes to humanity.
Yes, God created his creation to create. For instance, he commands the earth to bring forth trees and plants and cattle etc and to the water he commands to bring forth fish etc.

but with humanity he says, let us... At a basic level, God creates / forms humanity from the dust of the earth, yet breathes His Spirit into humanity. We are not like the other animals that came from the dust, and in many ways.

 

[Link1983]

Eve?

Adam.. ?

 

[Link1983]

What causes sin tho? Isn't it the free will?

 

[Link1983]

Our paths diverge here. I've already given the evidence that people are born with a sinful nature. And I disagree with your statement that Adam was created with the propensity to sin. Rom. 5:12 says that "sin entered the world through one man." But your idea is that sin (that is, the sin principle inherent in fallen human nature) already existed in Adam when he was created, by saying he was created with the propensity to sin. I don't agree with the idea that Adam was inclined to sin before his fall. One could argue that God is the author of sin, since he created man with that inclination, in that case. I don't believe that. So I am more inclined to the doctrine of traducianism than creationism. "You created my inmost being" doesn't support the creationist idea. It is simply an acknowledgement that God created all things and all people. Traducianism acknowledges that God created us by secondary means of natural processes established at the beginning of creation.
TD

So the whole Bible starts with God created earth. So this tradumumumism is yet another twisting doctrine among maaany more.
God created man with a free will. To choose by their selves.
God is no author of sin. The Bible clearly speaks of origin of sin and our potential to do it.

Both Adam and Eve was deceived. But still chose to do so having been warned.

Don't complicate things more than necessary.

God good. Satan bad. Man bad. (Because of the fall) by free choice.
God still good tho. Thank God for that.
Pride comes before the fall. We should by all means avoid it!

Shalom

 

[OzSpen]

What causes sin tho? Isn't it the free will?

Link,

Now that all of us have sinful natures, is it possible to choose not to sin - most of the time?

Oz

 

[JLB]

JLB,

Before we go further, I'd like to respectfully request that when either of us asks a non-rhetorical question, we will do our best to answer it. Otherwise, you have no idea if I am really listening to you with an intent to understand you and I have no clear indication you are listening to me. For instance, in post #251 I asked if you understood my position. Also, in post #262, I answered your question to me and then asked you a question. (Both questions are shown below.) You have not addressed either question, so I am wondering if you are really engaging in this discussion with an intent to understand me. If we do not make an honest effort to understand - not necessarily agree with - the other's position, then we can go forever just "talking past" one another.

Will you agree to this?

Yes, however this needs to work both ways.

Whenever I take the time to make a post and use scripture, to explain my point and even make my point, and answer your question directly, only to have you make a statement like this one above, insinuating I ignored your question when all can see I plainly didn’t, it’s makes me wonder about your motive.



Here is the direct answer again from your question —

BTW, what conclusion(s) do you draw from the words being interchangable?

My Answer:

• That believing without obeying is useless.

It’s actually called “demonic believing”, and is what many people are engaged in, thanks to false teachings in the Church.


You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:19


Demons believe Jesus rose from the dead, and that He is Lord, however they continue to obey Satan, so therefore Satan is their lord.


This is the point Paul makes in Romans where he says...

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16


If we believe Jesus is Lord by do not obey Him, then He is not our Lord.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

Post 268



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Both Adam and Eve was deceived. But still chose to do so having been warned.

1 Timothy 2:14 NLT
And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result.

There are two types of sin spoken in scripture. Eve was deceived while Adam willfully disobeyed. It was Adams willful sin that resulted in death.

Romans 5:12 NLT
When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.

What causes sin tho? Isn't it the free will?

Yes, I believe it starts with free will. When we look at how sin occurs, James put it this way.

James 1:14 -15 NLT
14 Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. 15 These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

 

[Hospes]

Yes, however this needs to work both ways.

No Worries! Please let me know if I fail to address any of your questions.

Whenever I take the time to make a post and use scripture, to explain my point and even make my point, and answer your question directly, only to have you make a statement like this one above, insinuating I ignored your question when all can see I plainly didn’t, it’s makes me wonder about your motive.

Maybe if you would quote my question and then respond, then I'd see more clearly you are addressing my question. My apologies for not making the connection between my question and the response you gave.

For you and I to know others' motives, we'd have to have God-like insight. I do not even have a full grasp on my own motives, much less yours. So, at least for me, to wonder about others' motives is a fool's errand.

My Answer:

• That believing without obeying is useless.

It’s actually called “demonic believing”, and is what many people are engaged in, thanks to false teachings in the Church.

My contentions:

• The absence of obedience indicates there is no salvific believing. (Salvific believing as opposed to what you refer to as demonic believing.)
• Obedience does not cause salvific believing.

Would you agree with either?