The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

[Hospes]

psst its inward then out ward lets not leave out be not conformed the world..action on our part when we are transformed by the renewing of our mind.. its not for GOD benefit it is for us that WE may prove /know the will of GOD which is our reasonable service worship

Yes, but with Augustine we pray,
"O Lord, command what you will and give what you command."

Of course, I am sure he did not mean it in any way that could be construed to support Calvinism. :wink

 

[jerry63935]

Yes, but with Augustine we pray,

I PRAY IN jESUS NAME i am sure augustine was a good Godly man.. but please not he was just a man. i have been down this road many times in carm maybe you should check it out back to repentance the apostle paul wrote Godly sorrow 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. .Matthew 3:7-9 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with "repentance. " 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
Luke 13:2-4 2 Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem?


i could careless about calvinism /reformed theology the fact is we are commanded to repent

 

[Fastfredy0]

Hey Ms. Wondering,

No. I'm very careful about what I say....
I MEANT that calvinism teaches a God that is the opposite of what He is.
Calvinism teaches a God that is
UNLOVING
UNMERCIFUL
UNJUST

If you believe this to be the opposite you'll have to explain why to me.
Do YOU believe God picks and chooses who will be saved and who be damned?
If you do...then HOW is that a God of love, mercy or justice?

You qualify the definition of "love", "mercy" and "justice" of God differently than Calvinists. You put a condition on these terms. The condition seems to me to be: (now I am stating as best I can my interpretation of your thoughts, so pardon me where I error) that God must love ALL BEINGS WITHOUT EXCEPTION IN THE SAME WAY. So, I suppose the most stunning example would be: God loves Satan. Similarly, God must offer everyone mercy or He is not merciful and He is not just.

(aside: Since God does not offer Satan and the fallen angels mercy and therefore is not just via your definition as I understand it, God must not be 'loving', 'merciful', and 'just'. Hmmm... I guess one could ask if you love Satan ... no insult meant ... just acedemic pondering of possibilities and logical consistancies ... anyways ... )

Calvinists do not restrict the definition of God's attribute of 'love', 'mercy', and 'justice' in such a way that He is obligated to there all people the same. Calvinists (I will speak for them, hopefully correctly) find it repugnant to think that a Holy God can love that which is abhorrent to Him.
It is also an error to interpret “God is love” to mean God is only love…using love as a paring knife to cut away his power, justice, and wrath against sin, leaving only unconditional acceptance and positive regard, what Arthur Pink rightly disdained as “amiable weakness” and mere “sentiment.” Evangelical theologians do not eliminate divine justice, but they still become imbalanced if they teach that God is primarily love, as if love trumped all other attributes of God. Joel Beeke

... and as I said before, God is not obligated to have mercy on all without exception (evidence: Satan and his fallen angels) for it would be a mercy by obligation as opposed to freedom of choice.
... and calvinists feel God gives everyone justice ... His justice is not predicated on offering mercy to all without exception in our view.

Final thought: Since the definitions of "love", "mercy" and "justice" do not contain a qualifying need that these attributes be equally distributied to everyone without exception you have distorted the definition of these words. This distortion resulted in you stating that you believe Calvinists do not believe God is a God of "love", "mercy" and "justice".
Example: I love my dog and I love my wife. Since I don't treat them the same, it cannot be love. I deny this understanding. You won't find it in the dictionary.

How does John 8:44 teach that God loves the sons of satan?

I don't think it does. I am saying that your statements would lead to the following:
Premise 1: God loves everyone without exception (you probably use John 3:16)
Premise 2: Some people of premise 1 are the sons of Satan John 8:44
Conclusion: If premise 1 and 2 be true, then God love the sons of Satan.
Again, Calvinists (IMO) do not agree. The would say God loves everyone without exception with the love of benevolence (the rain from on the good and the bad). God loves those He choose before the foundation of the earth with the love of complacency as they are IN CHRIST via imputation.

God calls everyone:

Hmmm ... I would need an explicit definition of CALL to comment ... aside: You're wearing me out woman.... glad I took typing in high school. (I was good for a boy)

No Fastfredy...
YOU believe in unconditional election.
I believe in conditional election.

Agreed

I just also believe some could believe in God by having a desire for God in their heart (if they have no access to hearing).

This is a minority opinion (not that that makes it incorrect. I'll let you argue with TibiasDad. I hope you're right, though I don't think so.

Explain to me how God is a just God that does not give to EVERYONE the equal opportunity of being saved.

Well, if you believed that those that have not have not heard the gospel are domed than that would be enough evidence. But since you don't ..
*ponders* perhaps your equate your definition of "fair" with "just" ... not matter ... Romans 9:9-24
Justice is giving everyone what they deserve. No one goes to Hell that doesn't deserve it.
I think you skew the definition of justice such that God is obligated to give everyone the same chance to be saved. This thought (assuming I stated your opinion accurately) is shown to be incorrect by the empirical evidence that God does not offer Satan and his fallen angels mercy, nor does He give everyone the blessing of Christian parents, some are indoctrinated into Islam, etc.

Would a human judge send you to your death for having done NOTHING?
How much more just should God be?

Hardly nothing ... "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God",... the penalty for sin is death, yahda, yahda ... so I don't accept your premise that "we have done nothing wrong".

The fact that God saves ANY is a sign of INJUSTICE,,,not justice.
To be a just God,,,,He would have to give the same love and mercy to ALL MEN...
not just to a select few.
The fact that He saves any is proof of injustice.
Think about this carefully.

Hey, I hear where you are coming from. I am not unsympathetic. You have reasoned that God must treat everyone that same or He is unjust. We know for a fact God doesn't treat everyone the same. Some are born blind, some deaf, some poor, some rich, some have Christian parents. If you are to be consistent then use your definition of a just God to all the other things man experiences.

Matthew 11:28-30
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

You assume that since the statement is made that there MUST be a possibility that the person can do it of his on INDEPENDENT resources. These are statements of what one must do, not HOW. When you get to the verses about HOW one comes to God, then they will state that God does all the work and you don't. (I know we disagree.... call it a stalemate *loving smile*) ... I could list verses...

Unfortunately FF,,, it's not MY perception of truth.
The Apostles, the Apostolic Fathers and the Early Church Fathers (the first 300 to 400 years after Jesus' resurrection) had
no concept of predestination or the idea that a person could not have free will.
These ideas were introduced in the 1,500's. Quite some time after Jesus' death.

Well, I don't use history books to determine my theology. If you do then ponder on this: It wasn't until Christ and afterwards that anyone considered the Trinity to exist. Now the doctrine of the Trinity is essential to Christian doctrine. Thus, if you are to be consistent you should go back to the earlier church fathers (before Christ) and say the trinity is historically inconsistent.
Aside using your historical method to confirm truth (which I do not accept): Augustine was born in 340. Augustine believed: Augustine’s strong predestinarian views influenced a number of Roman Catholic thinkers in history, but has been, for the most part, ignored by their modern counterparts. Augustine’s basic perspectives on this topic were embraced largely by such Protestant Reformers as Martin Luther and John Calvin, and are still reflected today in the historic confessional statements of the Reformed theological tradition. https://reasons.org/explore/blogs/r...s-view-of-predestination-st.-augustine-part-9
... so much for history defines truth (IMO)

Has Calvin understood God properly?
I say it has not, as does every other Christian denomination except the reformed.
There must be a reason why.

Well, if being of the majority opinion makes one right, then we should be Roman Catholics ... especially, say 1000 years ago. It was the reformers that broke away from the R.C.s ... then you guys broke away from us and were a minority ... (church history is not my strong suit ... I think I have it right)

Interesting discussion. Thanks for you patience.

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus is speaking about the Sheep that were lost. And He successfully sought and saved each of them 100% Lk 15

1) Luke 19:10 is not the context of Luke 15.

2) Luke 15 is a parable about a hypothetical lost sheep, Luke 19:1-10 is a historical event about a real lost Israelite.

3) Luke 19:1-10 doesn't even mention sheep, nor are sheep mentioned in the entire chapter.

4) If Jesus intended to call Zacchaeus a sheep, he would have said that he came to seek and to save lost sheep. But there is no mention of probaton, sheep! Thus, Luke 15 is about caring for a sheep that loses his way away from the flock, and Luke 19 is about one who is not yet a sheep and bringing and adding him to the flock! Two entirely different situations.


Doug

 

[Hospes]

I PRAY IN jESUS NAME i am sure augustine was a good Godly man.. but please not he was just a man.

Do you think I was suggesting we pray to Augustine or in his name? Not sure what triggered you to quote verses on repentance to me....

the fact is we are commanded to repent

Ye, we are. I did not know this was in dispute.

 

[TibiasDad]

that God must love ALL BEINGS WITHOUT EXCEPTION IN THE SAME WAY. So, I suppose the most stunning example would be: God loves Satan.

I think you're creating a strawman, FF, because we limit the love of God to humans, not the entire scope of created beings. Jesus didn't die for angels, and the gospel of Christ is not for angels.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Unfortunately FF,,, it's not MY perception of truth.
The Apostles, the Apostolic Fathers and the Early Church Fathers (the first 300 to 400 years after Jesus' resurrection) had
no concept of predestination or the idea that a person could not have free will.
These ideas were introduced in the 1,500's. Quite some time after Jesus' death.

Augustine, was the first theological writer to present the concepts later revived as Calvinism, starting around 396 AD until his dead in 440 AD. (Late fourth century and early fifth century)

But you are correct that this was not held or taught prior to Augustine, nor was it widely accepted or promoted after his death until the sixteenth century and the rise of the reformation.

Doug

 

[JLB]

The Shepherd finds the Lost SHeep and that's the Sheeps repentance.

I think you misunderstand the teaching of Luke 15.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


Jesus is both teaching His disciples and rebuking the Pharisees for their blatant hypocrisy in this parable.

Its not about Jesus going after a lost sheep, but Hs disciples who are charged with the task of tending His flock after He returns to heaven.

Jesus is teaching His disciples how much even those who become separated from Him, and therefore unreconciled with God mean to heaven, how precious each soul is to God even when they return to being sinners, and are no longer justified.

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Just because one of His sheep wander away and become lost doesn’t mean they were never saved. God still loves them deeply and desires them to repent and return to Him.

However, this is the work of the Church to go after His lost sheep, and compel them to return to God.


James, the brother of Jesus, says it this way —


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

A brother in Christ who becomes lost must repent and return to God or face eternal death.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Actually, the word in Greek is a compound word meaning "changed thinking/mind." "Turning from" - i.e. a change in behavior - is the outward manifestation of changed thinking.

Closely related to this, we are transformed by the renewing of our mind. Romans 12:2 (ESV)

The biblical meaning of repent in the context of salvation means - turn to God; ie in submission to Him.

IOW we turn away from Satan, and turn to Jesus as Lord.

If Jesus is now our Lord, then we are to obey His laws and commandments and teachings.


This is the Gospel in a nutshell.

Words of Christ in red —


But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:16-20




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

1) Luke 19:10 is not the context of Luke 15.

2) Luke 15 is a parable about a hypothetical lost sheep, Luke 19:1-10 is a historical event about a real lost Israelite.

3) Luke 19:1-10 doesn't even mention sheep, nor are sheep mentioned in the entire chapter.

4) If Jesus intended to call Zacchaeus a sheep, he would have said that he came to seek and to save lost sheep. But there is no mention of probaton, sheep! Thus, Luke 15 is about caring for a sheep that loses his way away from the flock, and Luke 19 is about one who is not yet a sheep and bringing and adding him to the flock! Two entirely different situations.


Doug

Jesus is speaking of the Sheep.

 

[brightfame52]

I think you misunderstand the teaching of Luke 15.


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


Jesus is both teaching His disciples and rebuking the Pharisees for their blatant hypocrisy in this parable.

Its not about Jesus going after a lost sheep, but Hs disciples who are charged with the task of tending His flock after He returns to heaven.

Jesus is teaching His disciples how much even those who become separated from Him, and therefore unreconciled with God mean to heaven, how precious each soul is to God even when they return to being sinners, and are no longer justified.

• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Just because one of His sheep wander away and become lost doesn’t mean they were never saved. God still loves them deeply and desires them to repent and return to Him.

However, this is the work of the Church to go after His lost sheep, and compel them to return to God.


James, the brother of Jesus, says it this way —


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

A brother in Christ who becomes lost must repent and return to God or face eternal death.



JLB

I think you misunderstand Lk 15. The Shepherd found the Lost Sheep and that was it's repentance . The Shepherd gets credit for the Sheep return!

 

[brightfame52]

disagree %100 repentance is to turn from

The Shepherd effects the Repentance, He is getting credit for finding the Sheep and putting it on His Shoulder.

 

[JLB]

I think you misunderstand Lk 15. The Shepherd found the Lost Sheep and that was it's repentance . The Shepherd gets credit for the Sheep return!

This is merely your opinion, which is not based on scripture, which Is why you are not posting scripture.

Please post scripture and refer to the words being used in scripture, like I have done.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


Jesus does not go after the sheep, as He is in heaven, seated at the right hand of God. Jesus dwells in His Church and compels us to go after the lost.


Do you agree that the lost need salvation?


His sheep who become lost, must repent and be reconciled back to God just as an unbeliever who is needs salvation.


Lost = Sinner; a person separated, and unreconciled with God.
Unjust; spiritually dead

Found = Reconciled with God; justified, right with God.


It’s up to the Church, the body of Christ to go after His sheep who become lost.


JLB

 

[Hospes]

IOW we turn away from Satan, and turn to Jesus as Lord.

JLB, look closely at the passage you provided.

​

And I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And the Lord said, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand upon your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you as a servant and witness to the things in which you have seen me and to those in which I will appear to you, delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’ Acts 26:15–18 (ESV)​

Notice the chain of events written of in the passage. What precedes the Gentiles "turn from darkness to light"? It is their eyes being opened. No longer being blind "so that" they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God "that" they may may receive forgiveness of sins.

Eyes being opened is the root of repentance and a person turning is the fruit of repentance. I believe it is an act on God's part that removes spiritual blindness and opens spiritually closed eyes. In the cases of Jesus opening the eyes of the physically blind, the blind person was powerless against their infirmity; all the willingness and desire on their part was not going to cause their eyes regain sight. As with physical blindness, I am incapable of causing myself to spiritually see; it requires a supernatural act that only God can do. God removes spiritual blindness, upon gaining such sight, we quite naturally stop bumping around like a blind guy.

If Jesus is now our Lord, then we are to obey His laws and commandments and teachings.

Once God has "shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Corinthians 4:3-6(ESV) ) we very much desire and pursue - in love for our Lord - "to obey His laws and commandments and teachings to obedience."

 

[Hospes]

This is merely your opinion, which is not based on scripture, which Is why you are not posting scripture.

Please post scripture and refer to the words being used in scripture, like I have done.

Let me give brightfame52 an assist in your request.

2 Timothy 2:25–26 (ESV)​

...correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.​

We may call people to repentance, but it seems that God is the one that gives it.

 

[brightfame52]

This is merely your opinion, which is not based on scripture, which Is why you are not posting scripture.

Please post scripture and refer to the words being used in scripture, like I have done.

“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


Jesus does not go after the sheep, as He is in heaven, seated at the right hand of God. Jesus dwells in His Church and compels us to go after the lost.


Do you agree that the lost need salvation?


His sheep who become lost, must repent and be reconciled back to God just as an unbeliever who is needs salvation.


Lost = Sinner; a person separated, and unreconciled with God.
Unjust; spiritually dead

Found = Reconciled with God; justified, right with God.


It’s up to the Church, the body of Christ to go after His sheep who become lost.


JLB

That is what the passage teaches. The Shepherd found His Sheep and returned it. That was the repentance of the Sheep..

 

[GodsGrace]

Augustine, was the first theological writer to present the concepts later revived as Calvinism, starting around 396 AD until his dead in 440 AD. (Late fourth century and early fifth century)

But you are correct that this was not held or taught prior to Augustine, nor was it widely accepted or promoted after his death until the sixteenth century and the rise of the reformation.

Doug

Yes.
You gotta love Augustine.
Came out of manichaen gnosticism and took some of his ideas with him.
He changed his mind on evil and on free will during his lifetime.
He didn't believe in double predestination like Calvin did, but if a person would just use some logic...
they'd figure out that it's all double predestination.

I believe one of the reasons he was revered in the church of that time was, one, charisma. Can't get anywhere without that.
And then because he was so good at battling against gnosticism - maybe because he came from the inside out. But still it's difficult to leave behind, totally, ideas that one grew up with at an early age. He became Catholic at the age of 30/31.

This is from Wikipedia, but I know for a fact that the Catholic Church teaches that he did not believe in double predestination.
He also changed his mind on free will reverting back to determinism is his battle with Pelagius.

The early Christians opposed the deterministic views (e.g., fate) of Stoics, Gnostics, and Manichaeans prevalent in the first four centuries.[188] Christians championed the concept of a relational God who interacts with humans rather than a Stoic or Gnostic God who unilaterally foreordained every event (yet Stoics still claimed to teach free will).[189] Patristics scholar Ken Wilson argues that every early Christian author with extant writings who wrote on the topic prior to Augustine of Hippo (412) advanced human free choice rather than a deterministic God.[190] According to Wilson, Augustine taught traditional free choice until 412, when he reverted to his earlier Manichaean and Stoic deterministic training when battling the Pelagians.[191] Only a few Christians accepted Augustine's view of free will until the Protestant Reformation when both Luther and Calvin embraced Augustine's deterministic teachings wholeheartedly.[192][193]

The Catholic Church considers Augustine's teaching to be consistent with free will.[194] He often said that anyone can be saved if they wish.[194] While God knows who will and won't be saved, with no possibility for the latter to be saved in their lives, this knowledge represents God's perfect knowledge of how humans will freely choose their destinies.[194]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo#:~:text=In late August of 386,Latin: tolle, lege).

 

[jasonc]

Calvin later in life per a ordained member in my,church who has a divinity degree and I use for church history said Calvin changed on double predestination later in,life .

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus is speaking of the Sheep.

It is nowhere in the context, which means it is only there by eisegesis!

Doug

 

[GodsGrace]

Hey Ms. Wondering,

You qualify the definition of "love", "mercy" and "justice" of God differently than Calvinists. You put a condition on these terms. The condition seems to me to be: (now I am stating as best I can my interpretation of your thoughts, so pardon me where I error) that

Hi FF,
This conversation is good. We're trying to understand each other and this is a good thing.
Jesus said we should love one another and that this is how we would be known to be His disciples. John 13:35
Although I do not agree with any of your beliefs, I do understand how one could come to these conclusions IF they study the bible with a reformed teacher.
What I find interesting is that if a person (or at least the ones I've known) goes through the N.T. on their own, they come to the belief that God loves them, that they need forgiving and that God is willing to forgive them.

This seems to me to be a basic concept found in the N.T. and all theology should derive from this.

Now, you seem to be a smart fella to me and I find it almost impossible to believe that you think the above of me....!

" God must love ALL BEINGS WITHOUT EXCEPTION IN THE SAME WAY. So, I suppose the most stunning example would be: God loves Satan. Similarly, God must offer everyone mercy or He is not merciful and He is not just."


1. I DO NOT qualify the words LOVE, MERCY, JUSTICE. YOU do.
I've posted verses stating that God is loving, merciful and just. There are plenty more.
But please explain the following to me:

HOW is God loving if He does not give me an opportunity to gain heaven by following a set of known rules but just let's me die in the pit, headed straight for hell.

HOW does God show any mercy to a person who may WANT to be saved, but HE has decided will not be receiving any grace from Him.

HOW is God just in your theology? Justice means to give to each one what that person deserves.
We are all lost and deserve to be separated from God at our birth.
God sets rules for how we could become saved.
If the rules are not for everyone....how is it justice?
If I'm damned because God damned me...how is that justice?
If I pay an eternal price because GOD never gave me the opportunity to be redeemed, how is this justice?

2. You say my belief would lead God to love satan.
God loves HIS CREATION. Satan is an enemy of God.
When God said all is good in Genesis 1:31 was satan present in that statement? Or was satan already an enemy?

God loves all His creation (us) but only those that believe in Him and follow Him will be His children.

Have you not read
Galatians 5:19-21 ??
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Only the children of God will enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

(aside: Since God does not offer Satan and the fallen angels mercy and therefore is not just via your definition as I understand it, God must not be 'loving', 'merciful', and 'just'. Hmmm... I guess one could ask if you love Satan ... no insult meant ... just acedemic pondering of possibilities and logical consistancies ... anyways ... )

Jesus did not die to redeem the angels and satan...they are lost forever and will burn in hell.
2 Peter 2:4 the only time the bible mentions hell. (tartarus)

And yes, you asking if I love satan is rather insulting. This is not consistant with anything I've posted. And rather a morbid thought on your part.
Let's stick to discussing this seriously.

Calvinists do not restrict the definition of God's attribute of 'love', 'mercy', and 'justice' in such a way that He is obligated to there all people the same. Calvinists (I will speak for them, hopefully correctly) find it repugnant to think that a Holy God can love that which is abhorrent to Him.

How do you get the above idea?
Where is it stated in the bible that God treats everyone the same in the way that you mean it?
The rain falls on the just and the unjust. Matthew 5:45
God reconciled man to Himself while man was still a sinner. Romans 5:8
The grace of God can bring salvation to all people. Titus 2:11

and this explains it the best:
John 3:36
36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

As I've said,,,,God is a JUST God...
He loves His creation....but will be just with each person individually.

It is also an error to interpret “God is love” to mean God is only love…using love as a paring knife to cut away his power, justice, and wrath against sin, leaving only unconditional acceptance and positive regard, what Arthur Pink rightly disdained as “amiable weakness” and mere “sentiment.” Evangelical theologians do not eliminate divine justice, but they still become imbalanced if they teach that God is primarily love, as if love trumped all other attributes of God. Joel Beeke

I never said God is primarily love...although, yes, I'd say His main attribute is love.
I've always included mercy and justice.

... and as I said before, God is not obligated to have mercy on all without exception (evidence: Satan and his fallen angels) for it would be a mercy by obligation as opposed to freedom of choice.
... and calvinists feel God gives everyone justice ... His justice is not predicated on offering mercy to all without exception in our view.

God's justice is not predicated on offering mercy to all without exception???
Again....what does JUSTICE mean???
And how is it justice if different persons have different conditions through no fault of their own?

Final thought: Since the definitions of "love", "mercy" and "justice" do not contain a qualifying need that these attributes be equally distributied to everyone without exception you have distorted the definition of these words. This distortion resulted in you stating that you believe Calvinists do not believe God is a God of "love", "mercy" and "justice".
Example: I love my dog and I love my wife. Since I don't treat them the same, it cannot be love. I deny this understanding. You won't find it in the dictionary.

I have distorted nothing.
Read my statements carefully before you come to conclusions as to what others outside of calvinism believe.

I don't think it does. I am saying that your statements would lead to the following:
Premise 1: God loves everyone without exception (you probably use John 3:16)
Premise 2: Some people of premise 1 are the sons of Satan John 8:44
Conclusion: If premise 1 and 2 be true, then God love the sons of Satan.
Again, Calvinists (IMO) do not agree. The would say God loves everyone without exception with the love of benevolence (the rain from on the good and the bad). God loves those He choose before the foundation of the earth with the love of complacency as they are IN CHRIST via imputation.

Please provide scripture supporting your belief that God chose those He loves before the foundation of the earth.

Hmmm ... I would need an explicit definition of CALL to comment ... aside: You're wearing me out woman.... glad I took typing in high school. (I was good for a boy)

This is an important topic...it never wears me out....?
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