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The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

Drew said:
Simple english. Again, there is simply no doubt about how Romans 2:6-7 reads as a statement in the english language.

We are given eternal life according to what we have done.

This is where I have to politely suggest that many simply engage in outright denial.

If X is given according to Y, that is as clear a statement as one could possibly make that the basis, the grounds for getting X is indeed Y.

Not something other than Y, but Y. Deny this, and I believe you simply do not understand, or are not willing to accept, the plain sense of this passage.

Now: I have already told you that I believe that Paul's argument is that faith alone guarantees salvation - and therefore we get all of Paul's statements about justification by faith - but only because faith brings the Spirit, and the Spirit produces the works that save at the end (Romans 2:6-7).

Important: I have argued at great length, in other threads, that Paul's statement "you are not saved by works" is really the statement "you are not saved by the works of the law of Moses. And those arguments have not been refuted. And this line of thinking is not my invention (I wish I were so insightful). They are arguments from respected theologian NT Wright who also argues that the reformed tradition simply will not deal with Romans 2:6-7.

Why do you (and others) deny the obvious meaning of Romans 2:6-7? By all means, argue for a translation error. Or that Paul has prefaced 2:6-7 with some statement like "I am about to tell you about a path to justification that no one can attain".

But, frankly, it insults the intelligence for anyone to suggest that, as a statement in the english language, Romans 2:6-7 does not clearly, assert that it is what we have done that is the basis, the grounds, the "according to" associated with the receipt of eternal life.

Yes, these works are "evidence" of a real faith. And yes, it is only the person with real faith who will produce these works. And yes, it is the Holy Spirit which is the "engine" behind these works.

But does Paul say you will be given eternal life according to faith? No.

He says you will be given eternal life according to, yes, "what you have done".

I am still open to the possibility that we are agreeing (although I doubt this is teh case).
Click to expand...
How is it that the evidence of having been justified righteous by faith in the blood of Christ to forgive sin HAS to be the very agent of justification that forgave sin? It's an irrational argument.

Sin guilt is not removed by being obedient to various righteous works. Sin guilt is ONLY removed by trust in the blood of Christ to do that. Works then being the evidence of that faith in Christ's forgiveness.

Just as God uses dead works as the evidence of a person's absence of faith in Christ, so God uses righteous works as the evidence of the presence of saving faith in Christ, and is used for what kind of reception you'll have into the kingdom of God. Some will get in by the skin of their teeth. Some in a very grandiose, unashamed manner. The reward of salvation is works based. The gift of salvation itself is faith based--because only faith in Christ's blood can forgive the sin guilt that keeps a person out of the kingdom.
 
{Drew “Does anyone who believe that "good works" are not required for "entering Heaven" have an explanation for this statement by Paul (from Romans 2)

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

As a statement rendered in the English language, it is a clear and unambiguous assertion that eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

Why would Paul make such a statement if he did not believe it to be true?

Many evade or ignore this question. Others, intentionally or otherwise, change this text into something else.

Any takers?†}


I will take this on:
If you will read the whole chapter Paul is talking about Israel, save gentiles and the Law to fellow Romans. If you remember he is a Roman Jew first and a Christian second. The Law was everything to him and he, as a Jewish leader was talking to them about the Jewish Law that they had to follow, but Israel during this time was not following God’s law. You had the Pharisees and Sadducees who, both in their own right, took and interpreted the law as they saw fit. Paul was showing that under the Law both Jew and Gentile alike were sinners. He asks that if you show yourself to be a great follower and teacher of the Law, do you practice it. Do you teach yourself it. He talks about the one that is circumcised (Jew) and sinning be as though uncircumcised (Gentiles) and the one who follows the Law but is uncircumcised be as though circumcised. He is leading the reader to a point that there is no one Jew or Gentile that is without sin. As he states in Romans 3:
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
The point he makes is that there is nobody that is sinless, not him, not anybody and by the Law we would be judged for our sins but God’s righteousness has been revealed to us apart from the Law. It comes through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who have faith and believe in him. Paul goes on to say in chapter 3
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Here Paul clearly states that salvation was by Christ death and our faith in him not by works. Works are a byproduct of our faith, a outpouring of our love for God to others. I for one believe that I am saved for all times. No one is perfect, no one cannot sin sometime during the week. Jesus was the one and only perfect man. I look at salvation as a gift from God, given freely , if you only believe and ask him in. Jesus died on the cross for our sin, past and present, why should we put him back on there every time we make a mistake or do something wrong. To me when we are born again we become part of God's family, we are born anew in Christ. It is like when your mother gave birth to you, no matter what you do you are still her son or daughter. You cannot become not hers, it is the same way with God. Once we become his we are his forever. He gives us the gift and we take it into our heart where we cannot remove it. To me Jesus is holding out the gift of eternal life all you have to do is to step forward and take it. Some do so willingly, some do but have to study to make sure that it is right for them but do not accept it, another goes up and looks at it but decides that this is not for them and leaves and still others do not even give the gift a second look because it is not going to help in the long run. This is the best answer I can give.
 
beardedad said:
{Drew “Does anyone who believe that "good works" are not required for "entering Heaven" have an explanation for this statement by Paul (from Romans 2)

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

As a statement rendered in the English language, it is a clear and unambiguous assertion that eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

Why would Paul make such a statement if he did not believe it to be true?

Many evade or ignore this question. Others, intentionally or otherwise, change this text into something else.

Any takers?â€
Click to expand...

James 2:14 (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
 
BornAgain said:
James 2:17 (KJV)
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Click to expand...

But James is talking about a vain man that says he has faith but has no works to back it up. But faith comes first and works comes second. A person that is truley saved will show it in their life, or you could call it their work where a person that claims to be saved but you can not see it in their everyday life is not saved because their life or works do not show it. Works is the byproduct of faith.
 
smaller,

What's interesting about faith, though sighted as a work:

Hebrews 12:2

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith,...

We can't even take credit for that.

I have a Muslim co-work who was greatly offended when I told him that everything he has was given to him. We know that God gives us everything, but take an ounce of pride from someone, then face the wrath. That could be a proverb.

- Davies
 
Davies said:
smaller,

What's interesting about faith, though sighted as a work:

Hebrews 12:2

New King James Version (NKJV)

2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith,...

We can't even take credit for that.

I have a Muslim co-work who was greatly offended when I told him that everything he has was given to him. We know that God gives us everything, but take an ounce of pride from someone, then face the wrath. That could be a proverb.

- Davies
Click to expand...

Some like to take credit and some understand they have no credit to give.

s
 
smaller said:
"Belief is A WORK" from previous post.

There is no such thing as a 'non worker' who believes because 'belief is also a work'
Click to expand...
As true as this is it really just confuses the topic because the point of contention in the non-worker vs. the worker argument is, "does the work of faith all by itself justify a person, or is other work necessary to be justified?"

Paul's argument is the 'work' of faith in the promised son is distinguished from all other righteous works as the ONLY thing that makes a person righteous before God.

We've got some people arguing that just packing your bags and leaving your homeland makes you righteous before God. But the only thing that can make you righteous before God is having the stain of your unrighteousness removed by trusting that the blood of Christ can do that--IOW, trusting in the Promised Son to attain the blessing promised to Abraham and his descendants (Abraham is our example of trust in that promise and how that trust makes one righteous). That's why faith is the only 'work' that can make you righteous before God. That is the 'work' that credits righteousness to a person--a righteousness that is IMPOSSIBLE to attain through doing any other righteous works.
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
As true as this is it really just confuses the topic because the point of contention in the non-worker vs. the worker argument is, "does the work of faith all by itself justify a person, or is other work necessary to be justified?"
Click to expand...

When the measure of works is observed truthfully what will we all find on those scales?

We should all be able to agree that both good and bad will be the factual discovery.

Paul's argument is the 'work' of faith in the promised son is distinguished from all other righteous works as the ONLY thing that makes a person righteous before God.
Click to expand...

I would find it extremely problematic to divide any good work from Gods distribution to us from His Spirit in us. Does any work of good stand apart from His Working?

No. It's not even possible for any believer to make the claim that their good works are done all on their own and apart from the involvement of God in Christ.

Who then are we judging on the basis of works? Ourselves? That is not possible as a believer, knowing the Spirit of God in Christ abides within our hearts.

We've got some people arguing that just packing your bags and leaving your homeland makes you righteous before God.
Click to expand...

As stated prior, the truthful examination, even of those you describe above, will reveal both good works and bad works. Those who claim faith in grace alone will STILL have both good works and bad works revealed on the heavenly scales. It is virtually impossible to live in this present world without BOTH kinds of works for any believer.

But the only thing that can make you righteous before God is having the stain of your unrighteousness removed by trusting that the blood of Christ can do that.
Click to expand...

That would be the approach of some. I do not however believe that will be the case in reality. We can wishy washy past our bad works in the Name of Jesus all we want. We are still going to have bad works on the scales regardless.

Personally I don't think excuses or doctrinal formats are going to dissolve the bad works. They will be found out, exposed and ultimately disposed of.

Prior to this however we will ALL provide an account of every last detail, both good and bad. And we will ALL suffer loss from that experience as there will be wood, hay and stubble to be burned on all of our accounts.

That's why faith is the only 'work' that can make you righteous before God. That is the 'work' that credits righteousness to a person--a righteousness that is IMPOSSIBLE to attain through doing other righteous works.
Click to expand...

There really is no way for any believer to avoid answering for what we have sown. And in any such measures we will all be found short as a fact.

So in this I will agree on the faith measure, understanding that works both good and bad are also a factor for all believers. I do not believe faith will avail as an excuse for bad works. There will be burning and there will be loss.

Paul was very clear on this. Will our salvation be hinged on this? No!!! But we may not come through the other end with much without SOLID LASTING WORTHY PRODUCE:

1 Cor. 3:
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Paul didn't say we 'might' suffer loss, but that we SHALL.

s
 
Hi smaller,

I'd like to highlight the verse you quoted.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


A person may receive rewards for his good deeds, but he won't receive eternal life for his good deeds. I think the quoted Scripture makes this clear when Paul says that when a work is burned up and suffers loss, that man is still saved. The work of justification is a work of God. I think 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 is consistent with Jethro's understanding.


Jenthro,


I like your avatar.


- Davies
 
Davies said:
Hi smaller,

I'd like to highlight the verse you quoted.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


A person may receive rewards for his good deeds, but he won't receive eternal life for his good deeds. I think the quoted Scripture makes this clear when Paul says that when a work is burned up and suffers loss, that man is still saved. The work of justification is a work of God. I think 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 is consistent with Jethro's understanding.
Click to expand...

As stated prior there is no such thing as a non-worker who believes because belief itself is a work.

To say that we can somehow subtract God in Christ from the equations of the believer and make them stand alone in any matter is problematic.

No man's work who is a believer stands apart from Christ in them.

s
 
Jethro Bodine said:
How is it that the evidence of having been justified righteous by faith in the blood of Christ to forgive sin HAS to be the very agent of justification that forgave sin? It's an irrational argument.
Click to expand...
Why then does Paul tell us that we will get eternal life according to what we have done?:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Jethro Bodine said:
Sin guilt is not removed by being obedient to various righteous works. Sin guilt is ONLY removed by trust in the blood of Christ to do that. Works then being the evidence of that faith in Christ's forgiveness.
Click to expand...
This begs the question. You presume the very thing you need to make a case for: that the basis for getting eternal life is "having your sins washed in the blood". Paul says what he says!!! - at the end there will be a judgement and eternal life will be granted according to what we have done.

I am quite confident you are not aware that you are begging the question. Such is the power of deeply held ideas.

Jethro Bodine said:
Just as God uses dead works as the evidence of a person's absence of faith in Christ, so God uses righteous works as the evidence of the presence of saving faith in Christ, and is used for what kind of reception you'll have into the kingdom of God. Some will get in by the skin of their teeth. Some in a very grandiose, unashamed manner. The reward of salvation is works based. The gift of salvation itself is faith based--because only faith in Christ's blood can forgive the sin guilt that keeps a person out of the kingdom.
Click to expand...
I am, frankly, astonished that you do not see how such a position rewrites Romans 2:6-7 to mean something other than what it means.

Paul does not say this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give rewards over and above eternal life.

He says this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Again, how can I argue with you if you feel free to change the meaning of what Paul actually writes.
 
Drew said:
Why then does Paul tell us that we will get eternal life according to what we have done?:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Click to expand...
Again I ask, where does it say that the works that accompany salvation are the actual agent of justification?

Why can it only be that God using the works of the faith that persists to the end means that the works themselves do the justifying and not the persistent faith that produced them? We aren't left to wonder and argue which we think does the justifying. Paul tells us plainly that it is faith in the blood of Christ that justifies, not other righteous work that justifies. But that hardly means faithful works won't accompany the faith that justifies apart from works.

You're making a very serious error in not rightly dividing the Word of God. You're not understanding your Romans 2 passage in the light of all that the Bible says about salvation being dependent on the persistence of faith in the blood of Christ. Persistence which is seen in the righteous things it does. Maybe this passage will help you see how it is the faith, and the perseverance of faith, that can be seen in what it does to some extent or another that saves a person:

"10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience (the perseverance of faith) inherit what has been promised." (Hebrews 6:10-12 NIV1984 emphasis mine)




Drew said:
This begs the question. You presume the very thing you need to make a case for: that the basis for getting eternal life is "having your sins washed in the blood".
Click to expand...
What I presumed was that you believed that sins are forgiven through the blood of Christ.

"To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen." (Revelation 1:5-6 NIV1984)

If you do not believe this, then we can better understand why you think salvation is by works (outside of the 'work' of believing). I see now why this makes no sense to you at all.



Drew said:
Paul says what he says!!! - at the end there will be a judgement and eternal life will be granted according to what we have done.
Click to expand...
...the works being the measure of the faith that justifies apart from works. And works that will determine what kind of entrance we will receive into the kingdom.

A persistent, fruitful faith is not only rewarded with salvation itself, but it also brings the reward of a job well done, not the shame and embarrassment of a lack of works.




Drew said:
I am, frankly, astonished that you do not see how such a position rewrites Romans 2:6-7 to mean something other than what it means.

Paul does not say this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give rewards over and above eternal life.
Click to expand...
Obviously you're leaving out the reward of eternal life itself. Faith that perseveres is rewarded, not only in salvation itself, but in the reward to be given at the resurrection for what an active fruitful faith accomplishes now in this life.



Drew said:
He says this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Again, how can I argue with you if you feel free to change the meaning of what Paul actually writes.
Click to expand...
Like I say, you need to know all of what scripture says about this matter. You can't just pigeon hole an isolated scripture to form your belief.
 
Davies said:
Hi smaller,

I'd like to highlight the verse you quoted.

1 Corinthians 3:14-15

New King James Version (NKJV)

14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.


A person may receive rewards for his good deeds, but he won't receive eternal life for his good deeds. I think the quoted Scripture makes this clear when Paul says that when a work is burned up and suffers loss, that man is still saved. The work of justification is a work of God. I think 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 is consistent with Jethro's understanding.
Click to expand...
I'm glad smaller brought that scripture up. That was the very next place I was going to go with Drew. It's there we see the 'reward' of salvation itself, but the lack of the reward of effective, fruitful work.



Davies said:
Jenthro,


I like your avatar.


- Davies
Click to expand...
Thank you. It's getting a little weathered, though.

I know an 80 year old woman who can touch it up for me.
 
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