The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

[Jethro Bodine]

I do not now, nor have I ever believed or taught that one merits, earns (or any adjective you may think of) salvation, justification, or righteousness in his alien state.

(bold in quote by Jethro)

Right. "In his alien state" you probably don't believe a person can be credited righteousness by doing righteous things.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the argument ends up being that God gives a person the ability to do righteous things that they are in turn credited righteousness for doing. That's still a 'works' gospel. A gospel where a person is credited righteousness by what they do, whether it be by the power of God or not, instead on the basis of having their unrighteousness removed and replaced with Jesus' right standing before God through faith in his blood apart from works, just as Paul teaches, using Abraham as God's example for us of how we, also, are credited righteousness by faith--faith in the blood of Christ--apart from works.

Sadly, people continue to think 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' (Romans 4:6) means righteous works don't have to accompany the faith that justifies apart from works. Maybe that's partly our fault by agreeing to use the term 'faith alone' (James' different argument about justification) instead of the proper term 'apart from works' when speaking about the argument. But even using the right term, 'apart from faith', and explaining how that DOESN'T mean righteous work doesn't have to accompany the faith that justifies, still doesn't seem to be understood (let alone accepted) as Paul's very different argument about justification that says a person is credited righteousness (made righteous) by their trust in the blood of Christ to forgive sin, not their work.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Ugh, pardon me sir,
But, "It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

Correct. If anyone could keep the law they would be declared righteous by it. Paul is setting the ground for his argument that says, since no one can keep the law, righteousness can only come one way...through faith in the blood of Christ, apart from the effort of doing righteous things. It's impossible to be declared righteous by righteous work because you would have to keep all righteous work perfectly to do that. No one can do that. So that way is out.

He uses Abraham being credited righteousness by his faith (not his work) as the example of what he's saying. Paul says he's the example for us of how we also are credited righteousness on the basis of our trust in the promise of a son, and not on the merit of righteous work.

Whereas the written code was put into effect by Moses reading it to the people after coming down from the mountain. The slight alteration, of much greater importance God made to the law after Jesus' was crucified, was put into effect by angles delivering it to the apostles according to the scriptures. At least according to the scriptures I have.

The angels did not deliver a new law to the Apostles. The context clearly shows that the law Paul is talking about being delivered by angels is the law of Moses.

Whereas you, sir, protest that there is "absolutely nothing I have to obey to be granted an escape from God's wrath"

Wrong. I do not say that. I see you don't understand Paul's 'righteousness apart from works' (Romans 4:6) argument either.

The argument doesn't mean righteous work doesn't have to accompany faith in Christ. It means that even the expected and obligatory righteous work that must accompany faith in Christ is not what God credits righteousness for. Faith, all by itself, apart from the righteous work it produces does that all by itself. Thus the meaning of 'apart from work' (not to be confused with 'faith alone', James' different argument about faith and works, but which people erroneously confuse with Paul's 'apart from works' argument).

...and this other fellow protests that it is commands, plural, that must be obeyed to be saved;

You must have a faith that justifies to be saved. The faith that justifies does righteous work. The person who has no righteous work to accompany his claim to faith has a faith that can't save him (James' argument). IOW, he doesn't have the faith that justifies, because the faith that justifies (apart from work) produces righteous work. But this in no way means the work produced by justifying faith is what does the actual justifying (making one righteous).

That is where the 'works gospel' argument is in gross error, thinking it is the obligatory work that justifying faith produces that God credits righteousness to a person for doing. No. The faith that produced that work does it all by itself apart from work. That is Paul's argument. The work is how we know a person has the faith that justifies, the faith that saves. That is James' argument.

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Correct. If anyone could keep the law they would be declared righteous by it. Paul is setting the ground for his argument that says, since no one can keep the law, righteousness can only come one way...through faith in the blood of Christ, apart from the effort of doing righteous things. It's impossible to be declared righteous by righteous work because you would have to keep all righteous work perfectly to do that. No one can do that. So that way is out.

He uses Abraham being credited righteousness by his faith (not his work) as the example of what he's saying. Paul says he's the example for us of how we also are credited righteousness on the basis of our trust in the promise of a son, and not on the merit of righteous work.



The angels did not deliver a new law to the Apostles. The context clearly shows that the law Paul is talking about being delivered by angels is the law of Moses.



Wrong. I do not say that. I see you don't understand Paul's 'righteousness apart from works' (Romans 4:6) argument either.

The argument doesn't mean righteous work doesn't have to accompany faith in Christ. It means that even the expected and obligatory righteous work that must accompany faith in Christ is not what God credits righteousness for. Faith, all by itself, apart from the righteous work it produces does that all by itself. Thus the meaning of 'apart from work' (not to be confused with 'faith alone', James' different argument about faith and works, but which people erroneously confuse with Paul's 'apart from works' argument).




You must have a faith that justifies to be saved. The faith that justifies does righteous work. The person who has no righteous work to accompany his claim to faith has a faith that can't save him (James' argument). IOW, he doesn't have the faith that justifies, because the faith that justifies (apart from work) produces righteous work. But this in no way means the work produced by justifying faith is what does the actual justifying (making one righteous).

That is where the 'works gospel' argument is in gross error, thinking it is the obligatory work that justifying faith produces that God credits righteousness to a person for doing. No. The faith that produced that work does it all by itself apart from work. That is Paul's argument. The work is how we know a person has the faith that justifies, the faith that saves. That is James' argument.

There is no support from the Bible of your allegation that any angel of any sort was involved in transporting the Sinai code of law to put that code into effect. Paul DOES NOT say that the written could not be kept. What he does say, and you get it straight between your ears, is that NO ONE will be declared righteous by God even if he DOES keep the written code. Further. "For it is NOT those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." What!!? Is that statement a falsehood!!? And this is also the man who has said "Do NOT go beyond what is written."

 

[Webb]

Again Jethro, you mistate, misrepresent, attempt to put words in ones mouth he has not spoken and thoughts in ones mind and heart which are not there. Strawman again. Can't wait to hear what you cook up next to tell me (or us) just exactly WHAT you want us to believe.

 

[rrowell]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the argument ends up being that God gives a person the ability to do righteous things that they are in turn credited righteousness for doing. That's still a 'works' gospel. A gospel where a person is credited righteousness by what they do, whether it be by the power of God or not, instead on the basis of having their unrighteousness removed and replaced with Jesus' right standing before God through faith in his blood apart from works, just as Paul teaches, using Abraham as God's example for us of how we, also, are credited righteousness by faith--faith in the blood of Christ--apart from works.

Sadly, people continue to think 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' (Romans 4:6) means righteous works don't have to accompany the faith that justifies apart from works. Maybe that's partly our fault by agreeing to use the term 'faith alone' (James' different argument about justification) instead of the proper term 'apart from works' when speaking about the argument. But even using the right term, 'apart from faith', and explaining how that DOESN'T mean righteous work doesn't have to accompany the faith that justifies, still doesn't seem to be understood (let alone accepted) as Paul's very different argument about justification that says a person is credited righteousness (made righteous) by their trust in the blood of Christ to forgive sin, not their work.

When you can grasp the fact that faith itself is a work you will understand, you keep saying Paul says "works" has nothing to do with "justified" but only faith, yet the priests here were "obedient to the faith", now how can one be "obedient" to anything without "doing" something? Notice very closely here, "obedient to the faith" not "faith making them obedient":

Acts 6:7 (KJV)
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

And here we learn of a "door of faith", meaning one must go through the "door" to get there.

Acts 14:27 (KJV)
27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

And Paul says the "just shall live by faith" meaning they must live a certain way to live by it, not that "faith" will "cause" them to "live by it" :

Romans 1:17 (KJV)
7 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no support from the Bible of your allegation that any angel of any sort was involved in transporting the Sinai code of law to put that code into effect.

"2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation?" (Hebrews 2:2 NIV1984)

Paul DOES NOT say that the written could not be kept. What he does say, and you get it straight between your ears, is that NO ONE will be declared righteous by God even if he DOES keep the written code.

Read the emboldened parts carefully so that you can see that vs. 20 (the verse your argument is based on) is couched in the context of NO ONE KEEPING THE LAW. NOT ONE.

We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
(Romans 2:9-24 NIV1984)

Further. "For it is NOT those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." What!!? Is that statement a falsehood!!? And this is also the man who has said "Do NOT go beyond what is written."

As you can see now, no one will be declared righteous by the law because no one can keep the law, but instead are sinners...not one.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can't wait to hear what you cook up next to tell me (or us) just exactly WHAT you want us to believe.

Well I'm glad you aren't like that...wanting us to believe something that you do.

Since you have decided to avoid my questions about Abraham's justification you are dismissed from discussing this with me.

Your silence is speaking volumes to me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When you can grasp the fact that faith itself is a work you will understand, you keep saying Paul says "works" has nothing to do with "justified" but only faith, yet the priests here were "obedient to the faith", now how can one be "obedient" to anything without "doing" something? Notice very closely here, "obedient to the faith" not "faith making them obedient":

The ONLY 'work' that justifies (makes righteous) is the 'work' of trusting in the blood. That is what distinguishes 'faith' from 'works' in this discussion.

It amazes me that people claim there is no difference between trusting that God will forgive you, and working to get God to forgive you. Amazing.

What you people don't understand is it's not just any faith that justifies. Nobody is justified by having the faith to go down to the church and learn more about the gospel someone told them about! No one is justified until they have faith in the blood of Christ, the Promised Son, because that is the ONLY thing that justifies. Just as Abraham was justified when he believed God about the newly revealed promise of a son.

 

[Webb]

Jethro--Good idea, since you insist on basing your arguments on what you THINK I should believe. That speaks volumes in itself.

 

[rrowell]

The ONLY 'work' that justifies (makes righteous) is the 'work' of trusting in the blood. That is what distinguishes 'faith' from 'works' in this discussion.

It amazes me that people claim there is no difference between trusting that God will forgive you, and working to get God to forgive you. Amazing.

What you people don't understand is it's not just any faith that justifies. Nobody is justified by having the faith to go down to the church and learn more about the gospel someone told them about! No one is justified until they have faith in the blood of Christ, the Promised Son, because that is the ONLY thing that justifies. Just as Abraham was justified when he believed God about the newly revealed promise of a son.

I hear you talking, but your not answering the question, the following two verses sum it up, does this verse not say "the priests were obedient to the faith? it clearly does not say "the faith made them obedient"...

Does not the verse clearly state that "obedience" and "faith" are a requirement for "justified"?

Acts 6:7 (KJV)
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

now we see clearly "obedient to the faith" means they had to "do something" (obey) the faith, and when we (obey) the faith, does not Paul here tell us that is what makes one "justified"

Romans 1:17 (KJV)
7 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

In Romans 1:17 Paul is quoting Habakkuk who said the same thing, "the just shall live by faith" it says "how one lives" his "faithful work" to "live by faith" is "just", and more importantly what it does NOT say is "faith 'only' makes one just"

Habakkuk 2:4 (KJV)
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I hear you talking, but your not answering the question, the following two verses sum it up, does this verse not say "the priests were obedient to the faith? it clearly does not say "the faith made them obedient"...

Does not the verse clearly state that "obedience" and "faith" are a requirement for "justified"?

No. It does not clearly state that at all. How are you getting that out of this verse?????? Where in the verse does it say they were credited righteousness because they were obedient?

Remember, the argument is NOT that obedience doesn't have to accompany justification. The argument is the faith itself, all by itself, apart from works, is what God credits righteousness for, NOT the works that faith is expected to produce.

Lack of works means one of two things: 1) you really don't have the faith (not works) in the blood of Christ that saves (James' argument), or 2) you have forgotten the mercy and grace you have received in the forgiveness of sins (Peter's argument in 2 Peter 1:9).

Show me in this scripture about obedient Priests where it says they were literally MADE righteous by their obedience. I will show you, again, the plain words of scripture that say it is faith in the blood of Christ apart from obedience to righteous works that makes one righteous before God (because the blood of Christ is the only thing that can remove unrighteousness. It's impossible to have unrighteousness removed by any other way than trusting in the blood of Christ to do that). Trust in the blood of Christ is the ONLY 'work' that God will credit righteousness for 'doing'.

Acts 6:7 (KJV)
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

now we see clearly "obedient to the faith" means they had to "do something" (obey) the faith, and when we (obey) the faith, does not Paul here tell us that is what makes one "justified"

How are you getting that out of this verse? Show me where it says that, please.

Romans 1:17 (KJV)
7 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

In Romans 1:17 Paul is quoting Habakkuk who said the same thing, "the just shall live by faith" it says "how one lives" his "faithful work" to "live by faith" is "just", and more importantly what it does NOT say is "faith 'only' makes one just"

Habakkuk 2:4 (KJV)
Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

We all know those who have the righteousness of Christ credited to them must now be obedient. That's not what's in debate. These particular verses show that life comes by faith. I see the word 'faith' there, not work!

What these verses fail to show is how it is obedience, the work of the just itself that does the justifying. Paul says it is the faith, all by itself, apart from works of righteousness, that do the justifying. James says we can tell who has this justifying faith (the faith that can save) by whether they uphold the law of liberty, "love your neighbor as yourself".

 

[reba]

This is copied from a new member user name 'nolonger'

to me it fits here ;

Sometimes we just get stuck at salvation…we never move on…we never wrap our hands around the fact that God has saved us, and now he wants to use us to change the world! In His word there is a word that we can shrug back from: works. We instantly think, “I am saved by faith, not by works.†You are right. But have we considered this: we are not saved by our good works, but we are saved for good works. His word reads that we are created for good works, set apart for zealous good works, and that we should be careful to maintain good works ( Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:14, Titus 3:8). His word also tells us that through our good works, which the world observes, they will glorify God (1 Peter 2:12).

 

[heymikey80]

to me it fits here

Wow, that fits so well what I was thinking. I'm "infamous" elsewhere for saying, "Not everything is about salvation."

 

[heymikey80]

even the Lemma (least inflected form): υπακουω even in this form it's best (or a better) single word interlinear translation is (obey)

even the Lexicons agree with the translators:

ὑπα^κού-ω , fut.
A. “-ακούσομαι” LXX Ge.41.40 (v. sub fin.); later “-ακούσω” Mim.Oxy.413.222:
I. hearken, give ear, “θεοὶ δ᾽ ὑπὸ πάντες ἄκουον” Il.8.4; “ὁ δ᾽ ἄρ᾽ ἐμμαπέως ὑπάκουσε” Od.14.485, cf. h.Ven.180: c. gen., “ὄττις . . πλάσιον ἆδυ φωνείσας ὐπακούει” Sapph.2.4; “ὑμῶν” Ar.V.318 (lyr.); “τῆς κρίσεως” Aeschin.3.56 (s.v.l.).
2. answer (by voice or act) when called, ἢ ἐξελθέμεναι “ἢ ἔνδοθεν αἶψ᾽ ὑπακοῦσαι” Od.4.283, cf. 10.83, E.Alc.400 (lyr.), Ar.V. 273 (lyr.), Theoc.13.59: in Prose, “ὁ κῆρυξ ἐκήρυττε τίς τὴν ἱκετηρίαν καταθείη, καὶ οὐδεὶς ὑπήκουεν” And.1.112; “τῷ παιδίῳ” Ar.Lys.878, cf. Nu.360 (anap.), X.Ages.3.4, Aeschin.1.49, D.19.266.
b. in a dialogue, answer when questioned, σοι Pl.Sph.217d; “τοῖς λόγοις” Id.Lg.898c.
3. listen to, heed, regard, c. gen. rei, Id.Tht.162d, X. Cyr.8.1.20; “ὑ. νόμων” Pl.Lg.708d; ὑ. διαίτῃ submit to a regimen, Id.R.459c; “λόγῳ” Arist.Pol.1333a18; ὑ. τῷ ξυμφόρῳ τινός comply with his interest, Th.5.98; δείπνῳ ὑ. accept an invitation to dinner, Ath. 6.247d: abs., give way, submit, comply, Hdt.3.148, 4.119, Pl.Prt. 325a, PCair.Zen.367.15 (iii B.C.): with a neut. Pron., μάλα γε τοῦτο, Xὑπήκουσενin this matter he obeyed.Cyr.2.2.3;“οὐδὲν τούτων ὑπήκουον” Th.1.29, cf. 139, 140, etc.; ὑ. τινός τι or τινί τι, obey one in a thing, ib.26, Pl.Lg.774b.

You just made my case.

At the very end of the definition of ὑπακούω, you've emphasized a product sense of the verb (that is, a verb pointing to its result or "product") that points to works.

For Three and a Half definitions(!), the verb doesn't point to works! In fact it even mentions that answering an invitation is one meaning of this word.

So that's put your interpretation as the lowest 1/7 of meanings of the term ὑπακούω.

If you want to be wrong 6 of 7 times, be my guest. Interpret this as you have interpreted it.

 

[heymikey80]

Heb 11:8"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed (hypakouō); and he went out, not knowing whither he went."


How does this verse say Abraham obeyed? by going out not by just some mental assent of the mind.

This verse says Abraham heard. It's a sequence, Paul isn't wasting parchment restating the same thing. What was the result of Abraham hearing? by going out.

And it's hupakouo, not hyrakouo.

Abraham was "called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance". Again, how did he obey this call to go out?

By going out

or

by not going out but just sat down and thought about going out?

Obeyed is active voice with the subject Abraham dong the acton of going out.

;) nobody's saying his obedience wasn't a result of his listening to God. The issue is whether listening is works. It isn't. Until we distinguish what the Apostles are really saying, we'll continue on with a word meaning little of what the Greek word is pointing to.

 

[rrowell]

You just made my case.

At the very end of the definition of ὑπακούω, you've emphasized a product sense of the verb (that is, a verb pointing to its result or "product") that points to works.

For Three and a Half definitions(!), the verb doesn't point to works! In fact it even mentions that answering an invitation is one meaning of this word.

So that's put your interpretation as the lowest 1/7 of meanings of the term ὑπακούω.

If you want to be wrong 6 of 7 times, be my guest. Interpret this as you have interpreted it.

It literally means:

"listen" in the context of:

"to heed someone." or best single word translation (obey)
"to heed orders." or best single word translation (obey)
"to heed advice." or best single word translation (obey)
"Listen to me! Do what I tell you!" or best single word translation (obey)
"You really should listen to his advice." or best single word translation (obey)
it requires several English words to interpret the single Greek word "υπηκουσεν", and all of the English words put to one single word can be summed up best by the one word "obey"!

ALL of the biblical translators of virtually ALL of the Bible versions have translated the word "obey" or "obeyed" as I have shown in previous posts in this thread and others with you.

If you continue to twist this word of the Bible to mean anything other than what it is in its context "obey" or "obeyed", then you are nothing more than a Bible Twisting Heretic and the most dangerous kind for a young Christian to run into and I highly recommend they avoid you and those like you.

You know enough Greek to try and use it to twist the English to support your Non Biblical definition, your pride makes you dangerous.

Here it is again:

Hebrews 11:8 (KJV)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:8 (NIV)
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (ASV)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:8 (CEV)
8 Abraham had faith and obeyed God. He was told to go to the land that God had said would be his, and he left for a country he had never seen.

Hebrews 11:8 (Darby)
8 By faith Abraham, being called, obeyed to go out into the place which he was to receive for an inheritance, and went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (ESV)
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (GW)
8 Faith led Abraham to obey when God called him to go to a place that he would receive as an inheritance. Abraham left his own country without knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (HCSB)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed and went out to a place he was going to receive as an inheritance. He went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (ICB)
8 It was by faith Abraham obeyed God's call to go to another place that God promised to give him. He left his own country, not knowing where he was to go.

Hebrews 11:8 (ISV)
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he didn't know where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (NASB77)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (NASB)
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (NCV)
8 It was by faith Abraham obeyed God’s call to go to another place God promised to give him. He left his own country, not knowing where he was to go.

Hebrews 11:8 (NKJV)
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (NLT)
8 It was by faith that Abraham obeyed when God called him to leave home and go to another land that God would give him as his inheritance. He went without knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (NRSV)
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to set out for a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; and he set out, not knowing where he was going.

Hebrews 11:8 (RSV)
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.

Hebrews 11:8 (TLB)
8 Abraham trusted God, and when God told him to leave home and go far away to another land that he promised to give him, Abraham obeyed. Away he went, not even knowing where he was going.

 

[heymikey80]

"listen" in the context of:

"to heed someone." or best single word translation (obey)
"to heed orders." or best single word translation (obey)
"to heed advice." or best single word translation (obey)
"Listen to me! Do what I tell you!" or best single word translation (obey)
"You really should listen to his advice." or best single word translation (obey)
it requires several English words to interpret the single Greek word "υπηκουσεν", and all of the English words put to one single word can be summed up best by the one word "obey"!

ALL of the biblical translators of virtually ALL of the Bible versions have translated the word "obey" or "obeyed" as I have shown in previous posts in this thread and others with you.

Do you know what the word "obey" means in English? It's to actually comply with an order, for instance. That's different from hearing an order, it's even different from heeding an order.

Listening is not working! Heeding is not working! Look it up! They mean what they mean!

The result of heeding advice is often work. But then you've made my case: it's not work, but the cause of work!

You brandish words like "heretic" around with zero standing to do so. Think carefully about what you're doing. I'd recommend a review of Jesus' statements about such things as alleging lies and falsehoods.

 

[rrowell]

You brandish words like "heretic" around with zero standing to do so. Think carefully about what you're doing. I'd recommend a review of Jesus' statements about such things as alleging lies and falsehoods.

I said before, you try to make the word "listen" like it is an acknowledgment and that is all it is, it is not, in English the word "listen" needs the surrounding text to define the words meaning, in Greek by compounding preposition and inflection the word plays part in defining its self, you choose to twist the English, and try to twist the Greek to match and you cannot.

You try to fashion it like this completely disregarding the preposition in the word (under):

if someone's cuts down a tree I can "listen" to it fall.

I said and Ill say it again, it is like this:

If today I were walking down the street and If today, God would (like in the days of old) tell me to do something, I may "listen" or "heed", but if I keep right on walking, what did I just do? "disobeyed" had I "listened" I would have "obeyed".... (like Abraham and Naaman they "obeyed")

any other way is heretic twisting of the scripture as literally every biblical translator has translated the word "obey" or "obeyed" and only you have by twisting come up with another meaning in its context.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This verse says Abraham heard. It's a sequence, Paul isn't wasting parchment restating the same thing. What was the result of Abraham hearing? by going out.

And it's hupakouo, not hyrakouo.

;) nobody's saying his obedience wasn't a result of his listening to God. The issue is whether listening is works. It isn't. Until we distinguish what the Apostles are really saying, we'll continue on with a word meaning little of what the Greek word is pointing to.

hupakouó: to listen, attend to​

Original Word: ὑπακούω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: hupakouó
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-ak-oo'-o)
Short Definition: I listen, obey
Definition: I listen, hearken to, obey, answer.


Cognate: 5219 hypakoúō (from 5259 /hypó, "under" and 191 /akoúō, "hear") – properly, to obey what is heard (literally, "under hearing"). See 5218 (hypakoē).

5219 /hypakoúō ("obey") is acting under the authority of the one speaking, i.e. really listening to the one giving the charge (order). 5219 /hypakoúō ("to hearken, obey") suggests attentively listening, i.e. fully compliant (responsive).

[5219 (hypakoúō) is an "intensification" of the simple verb "to listen" (191 /akoúō, "hear").]






Word Origin
from hupo and akouó
Definition
to listen, attend to

NASB Translation
answer (1), became obedient (1), becoming obedient (1), heed (1), obedient (2), obey (12), obeyed (3). STRONGS NT 5219: ὑπακούω

ὑπακούω; imperfect ὑπήκουον; 1 aorist ὑπήκουσα; from Homer down; to listen, hearken;


1. properly, of one who on a knock at the door comes to listen who it is (the duty of the porter), Acts 12:13 (where A. V. hearken, R. V. answer) (Xenophon, symp. 1, 11; Plato, Crito, p. 43 a.; Phaedo, p. 59 e.; Demosthenes, Lucian, Plutarch, others).
2. to hearken to a command, i. e. to obey, be obedient unto, submit to, (so in Greek writings from Herodotus down): absolutely, Philippians 2:12 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 594 (552)); ὑπήκουσεν ἐξελθεῖν (R. V. obeyed to go out i. e.) went out obediently, Hebrews 11:8; with a dative of the person (in Greek writings also with a genitive), Matthew 8:27 ; Mark 1:27 ; Mark 4:41 ; Luke 8:25 ; Luke 17:6 ; Romans 6:16 ; Ephesians 6:1, 5 ; Colossians 3:20, 22 ; Hebrews 5:9 ; 1 Peter 3:6 ; with a dative of the thing, τῇ πίστει (see πίστις, 1 b. α., p. 513b near top), Acts 6:7 ; ὑπηκούσατε εἰς ὅν παρεδόθητε τύπον διδαχῆς, by attraction for τῷ τύπω τῆς διδαχῆς εἰς ὅν κτλ. (Winers Grammar, § 24, 2 b.; cf. τύπος, 3), Romans 6:17 ; τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ, Romans 10:16 ; 2 Thessalonians 1:8 ; τῷ λόγῳ, 2 Thessalonians 3:14 ; τῇ ἁμαρτία (Rec.), ταῖς ἐιθυμιαις (L T Tr WH), i. e. to allow oneself to be captivated by, governed by, etc., Romans 6:12 .


http://concordances.org/greek/5219.htm


hupakouó does not only mean to listen but also carries the meaning of to attend to, to answer, to be fully compliant (responsive), submit to.

 

[Adullam]

This is copied from a new member user name 'nolonger'

to me it fits here ;

Sometimes we just get stuck at salvation…we never move on…we never wrap our hands around the fact that God has saved us, and now he wants to use us to change the world! In His word there is a word that we can shrug back from: works. We instantly think, “I am saved by faith, not by works.” You are right. But have we considered this: we are not saved by our good works, but we are saved for good works. His word reads that we are created for good works, set apart for zealous good works, and that we should be careful to maintain good works ( Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:14, Titus 3:8). His word also tells us that through our good works, which the world observes, they will glorify God (1 Peter 2:12).

Very apropos! :nod