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The Worker Vs. The Non-worker Who Believes

The scripture means proper Faith will produce proper works. If not, the Holy Spirit says here that it is "dead faith."
The worker are children under Hagar...Ishmael's of the natural.
The non worker are children under Sarah...Isaac's of the supernatural.
Under this new covenant God says believe I have been merciful to your unrighteousness, and your sins and your iniquities will I remember no more. If you believe God says, He can then write on our hearts and our minds. He can then speak to us, lead us, guide us, heal us, and change our desires. However if you think it is your effort that keeps you from sin, and you think it is your effort that makes you righteous, then you do not believe what the blood of Jesus has done for us...you believe only what you have done. The Blood Of Jesus Has Done It ALL!
 
The worker are children under Hagar...Ishmael's of the natural.
The non worker are children under Sarah...Isaac's of the supernatural.
Under this new covenant God says believe I have been merciful to your unrighteousness, and your sins and your iniquities will I remember no more. If you believe God says, He can then write on our hearts and our minds. He can then speak to us, lead us, guide us, heal us, and change our desires. However if you think it is your effort that keeps you from sin, and you think it is your effort that makes you righteous, then you do not believe what the blood of Jesus has done for us...you believe only what you have done. The Blood Of Jesus Has Done It ALL!
We must stop trying to achieve through self effort and rest in the finish work of Jesus Christ. Under the new covenant there are only blessings.
 
I would make this point? I one does not have His Spirit they are not His. If one has faith and walks in faith? Then that Spirit will bear the fruit of the spirit.
A tree that has religious leaves, and has no fruit onto God will be cursed and cast away.
God knows something about men that men do not know about themselves? AS A MAN THINKS IN HIS HEART, SO IS HE. God knows that if a man has real faith he will act in accordance to what he believes. If a man says he has faith and the Spirit of God? He will bear fruit unto God.
God will not be mocked by religious doctrines, He desires to see His Son and that life in all that call themselves by His Name.

For it was always about the "sacrifice" that which reminded God of His Beloved Son! Do not offer a swine and think that God will accept it!

True faith will offer that which reminds Him of Christ Jesus.
A SWEET SMELL UNTO THE FATHER.
 
"Works of faith" as decribed in scripture complete ones faith.
For just shall live by faith. If one does not have living faith they are not in faith and will not be justified by faith.

The point again is that one cannot just say they have faith, and think that God is mocked by their words.

Works of faith, come from faith!
Untested faith is not faith.
powerless faith is not faith.
lifeless faith is not faith.
religious faith is not faith.

The law is not of faith.

The point again, being that one can say they are justified by faith, but real faith is real and alive, according to the scriptures.

James doesn't say Rahab was justified by "real faith" only WORKS. Obviously she had faith, but James' point is that she was justified by works "in the same way" Abraham was. Both had faith, but what justified them was their "works". Therefore, according to James, sola-fide is a heretical, man-made doctrine.
 
Paul says the thing that counts toward justification (being MADE righteous before God) is faith. Not works of the law, NOR NON-WORKS OF THE LAW. Just faith. That's all:

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Galatians 5:6 KJV)


Sadly, not to terribly long after the time of Paul the 'leaven' of the works gospel from false teachers took hold in the church, just as it did to the Galatians of his time:

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. (Galatians 5:7-8 KJV)



And as we know Biblically, the leaven of bad teaching has a tendency to pollute the whole batch.

9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. (Galatians 5:9 KJV)

In time, this leavening of the whole lump became known as the Catholic Church. Then spiritual men rebelled against this false teaching in the church leadership and boldly broke away from them and back to faith to lead the way to what we now know as the Protestant movement.

Those who teach the false doctrine of the works gospel (making yourself righteous by doing righteous things...other than the 'work' of believing in God's forgiveness) will bear their judgment:

10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you. (Galatians 5:10,12 KJV)


Although, they can certainly still repent (change their mind about it) while there is still opportunity.

But maybe equally as sad is the fact that too many in the Protestant movement has erroneously made 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' (Romans 4:6 NIV) to mean the gift of righteousness apart from your effort to earn it is a license to continue in sin, which Paul also warns against:

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh... (Galatians 5:13 KJV)


Which is where James' teaching comes in. We are justified (MADE righteous) by faith in Christ's blood (not faith to go to church, etc.), all by itself, apart from the merit of any law or non-law obedience. James teaches us that the faith that justifies (all by itself) must also be SEEN in what we do, not just in what we profess.

We don't make ourselves righteous by acting on our faith. We SHOW ourselves to be righteous (also called being justified) by what we do. A so-called faith in the love of God that can not be seen in a giving of that love to others is a false faith...a dead faith. It has no power to save. Adding works to faith doesn't make faith able to make one righteous. It SHOWS a person to have been made righteous by faith..all by itself as Paul teaches. Our duty is to show we have this faith that justifies...all by itself apart from the merit of our obedience (outside of the obedience of faith in Christ, of course).
 
James doesn't say Rahab was justified by "real faith" only WORKS. Obviously she had faith, but James' point is that she was justified by works "in the same way" Abraham was. Both had faith, but what justified them was their "works". Therefore, according to James, sola-fide is a heretical, man-made doctrine.
YES HE DOES! and her faith was not "obvious" SHE WAS A HARLOT!
yes Abraham faith was made Complete by his actions!
You can not ignore the context as James continues with the thought unto Rahab the HARLOT!
so even if one accepts your doctrine of "works" all that is required is that which rahab did! Let some spies stay at the HARLOT house! i think most can muster that amount of works?
I dont care about what someone calls "sola-fide" Its FAITH! That works not works that bring faith. One cannot take this one part of one scripture and ignore its context and the whole report of the New Covenant!
If one allows the bible to descibe the "works" then I agree, if one suggest to me that some religion describes the works of faith and not the scripture? then that is false doctrine!

The bible decribes the "works"? Jesus said the works that I do you will do also, and greater works.

So i say yes If one claims to have a living faith they should show forth these works of Christ!
 
Paul says the thing that counts toward justification (being MADE righteous before God) is faith. Not works of the law, NOR NON-WORKS OF THE LAW. Just faith. That's all:

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Galatians 5:6 KJV)

If you would post the entire context of Galatians 5, all would see that Paul is not referencing "non-works of the law". He is ONLY writing about the Law, primarily circumcision.

"Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you. 9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view than mine; and he who is troubling you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 But if I, brethren, still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? In that case the stumbling block of the cross has been removed. 12 I wish those who unsettle you would mutilate themselves!"

As you can plainly see, Paul is talking about people who are teaching the brethren that circumcision is NECESSARY for salvation, as in Acts 15. James is not even in the same ballpark. He is not talking about the law at all, but about good deeds done in faith.

Sadly, not to terribly long after the time of Paul the 'leaven' of the works gospel from false teachers took hold in the church, just as it did to the Galatians of his time:

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. (Galatians 5:7-8 KJV)
Yes, and the Church dealt with this heresy like She does with all heresies. With a council (Acts 15).

And as we know Biblically, the leaven of bad teaching has a tendency to pollute the whole batch.

9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. (Galatians 5:9 KJV)

In time, this leavening of the whole lump became known as the Catholic Church.
Please show me where the Catholic Church taught that salvation hinged on keeping the Mosaic Law and circumcision, which is Paul's subject. Didn't think so.

Then spiritual men rebelled against this false teaching in the church leadership and boldly broke away from them and back to faith to lead the way to what we now know as the Protestant movement.
Or, pride and greed infected some members of the Body of Christ who gave into their sinful desires along with the secular political rulers of the time and persecuted the Church, eventually breaking away and starting their own churchES, all fighting and bickering with each other, proving that the hallmark of the "Reformation" was pride.

Those who teach the false doctrine of the works gospel (making yourself righteous by doing righteous things...other than the 'work' of believing in God's forgiveness) will bear their judgment:

10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you. (Galatians 5:10,12 KJV)

We've been over this a few times before, Jethro. Do you think THIS time it will be different, that THIS time I won't call you on your straw man? You KNOW the Catholic Church doesn't teach a person can "make himself righteous by doing righteous things". I have asked you to prove this drivel before and you can't. Did you think I would forget and just let it go?

Which is where James' teaching comes in. We are justified (MADE righteous) by faith in Christ's blood (not faith to go to church, etc.), all by itself, apart from the merit of any law or non-law obedience.
This is the opposite of his point. He doesn't make any reference to the law, only to what you call "non-law obedience", which the rest of the world calls good deeds done in faith. He says these actions JUSTIFY, which is the opposite of your contention.

James teaches us that the faith that justifies (all by itself) must also be SEEN in what we do, not just in what we profess.
Remove (all by itself) and I agree.

We don't make ourselves righteous by acting on our faith.
You are the one who believes we must DO something in order to be saved. We must "accept" or HAVE faith in order to be saved, thus making ourselves righteous.

We SHOW ourselves to be righteous (also called being justified) by what we do. A so-called faith in the love of God that can not be seen in a giving of that love to others is a false faith...a dead faith. It has no power to save. Adding works to faith doesn't make faith able to make one righteous. It SHOWS a person to have been made righteous by faith..all by itself as Paul teaches. Our duty is to show we have this faith that justifies...all by itself apart from the merit of our obedience (outside of the obedience of faith in Christ, of course).
Galatians 3 SHOWS what Paul means by the word "works", that is "works of the law". James is not anywhere near this subject, he is talking about good deeds done in faith, which DO effect our salvation.

We have been down this road before, so let's just get to where it all ended, which is what acts fall under Paul's definition of "works". This is the conversation I'm having with Heymikey80.

Paul means "works of the law", not good deeds done in faith. If you disagree, does NOT coveting or NOT stealing fit under Paul's definition? What about HAVING FAITH? It's an act you must DO in order to be saved, right?
 
Me: James doesn't say Rahab was justified by "real faith" only WORKS.



Please post the verses.

Its clear that as he related that Abrahams faith was made complete when he acted in faith Verses 23 through 24
verse 25 LIKEWISE Rahab! Likewise means IN THE SAME MANNER! you cannot seperate what is said of Abraham and truth of his LIVING faith from the NEXT VERSE!

one must ignore ALL OF THE NEW TESTMENT and the clear intention and context of theses scriptures, to bring in works as some would do?

And again I would ask, if one allowed your position? That somehow this scripture showed works? All the works rahab needed was to allow the spies into her HARLOT house, and then send them out the window.

So to attempt to bring works (of law or religion) by this scripture, is not a very moral set of works!

Either way your doctrines are defeated by the very scripture you would attempt to use to establish them.

God is wise above all wisdom! do really think He has not defeated all false teaching by His Word!

The use of Rahab in this scripture, takes away ALL MORAL ABILITY OF MAN, to justify himself in any way, other than by a LIVING FAITH!
 
We've been over this a few times before, Jethro. Do you think THIS time it will be different, that THIS time I won't call you on your straw man? You KNOW the Catholic Church doesn't teach a person can "make himself righteous by doing righteous things". I have asked you to prove this drivel before and you can't. Did you think I would forget and just let it go?
If being justified doesn't mean 'being declared (made) righteous', and it doesn't mean 'being declared (shown to be) righteous', then what could it possibly mean to you?

The forum is not a big thing for me anymore. I'm just chiming in as I can. I will get to everything you brought up in your post in time. You do need to clarify what you say being 'justified' means if, as it appears, it does not mean either of the two definitions I just provided. Until you do, too much more discussion may prove to mean very little.

In the mean time I challenge you to do a reread of James 1 and 2 to see that James' argument has everything to do with obedience of the 'royal law of scripture' found in the law. It plainly has everything to do with the way a person is justified (shown to be righteous). The very example he uses to show that faith must be an active, living faith to be able to save is 'love your neighbor as yourself' and a very specific lawful command (the reference of which escapes me at the moment, lol). But since the leadership of the early church decided we didn't need the law anymore few know James is indeed talking about the very law of Moses.
 
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If being justified doesn't mean 'being declared (made) righteous', and it doesn't mean 'being declared (shown to be) righteous', then what could it possibly mean to you?

The forum is not a big thing for me anymore. I'm just chiming in as I can. I will get to everything you brought up in your post in time. You do need to clarify what you say being 'justified' means if, as it appears, it does not mean either of the two definitions I just provided. Until you do, too much more discussion may prove to mean very little.

In the mean time I challenge you to do a reread of James 1 and 2 to see that James' argument has everything to do with obedience of the 'royal law of scripture' found in the law. It plainly has everything to do with the way a person is justified (shown to be righteous). The very example he uses to show that faith must be an active, living faith to be able to save is 'love your neighbor as yourself' and a very specific lawful command (the reference of which escapes me at the moment, lol). But since the leadership of the early church decided we didn't need the law anymore few know James is indeed talking about the very law of Moses.

So then your position is that we are justfied by faith and by keeping the law of moses?

And the "royal law" is not the law of Christ which is to love as He loves us? but it is really the law of moses? Written and engraved on stones?

If this is your position I have a few questions about the law for you? Are you able and willing to defend your position as you have stated?

For it is written that some will desire to be teachers of the law and not know what they are saying or trying to affirm!
I will be very glad to discuss this issue in an honest and respectful way if you would like?
 
Paul says the thing that counts toward justification (being MADE righteous before God) is faith. Not works of the law, NOR NON-WORKS OF THE LAW. Just faith. That's all:

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. (Galatians 5:6 KJV)


Sadly, not to terribly long after the time of Paul the 'leaven' of the works gospel from false teachers took hold in the church, just as it did to the Galatians of his time:

7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. (Galatians 5:7-8 KJV)



And as we know Biblically, the leaven of bad teaching has a tendency to pollute the whole batch.

9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. (Galatians 5:9 KJV)

In time, this leavening of the whole lump became known as the Catholic Church. Then spiritual men rebelled against this false teaching in the church leadership and boldly broke away from them and back to faith to lead the way to what we now know as the Protestant movement.

Those who teach the false doctrine of the works gospel (making yourself righteous by doing righteous things...other than the 'work' of believing in God's forgiveness) will bear their judgment:

10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you. (Galatians 5:10,12 KJV)


Although, they can certainly still repent (change their mind about it) while there is still opportunity.

But maybe equally as sad is the fact that too many in the Protestant movement has erroneously made 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' (Romans 4:6 NIV) to mean the gift of righteousness apart from your effort to earn it is a license to continue in sin, which Paul also warns against:

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh... (Galatians 5:13 KJV)


Which is where James' teaching comes in. We are justified (MADE righteous) by faith in Christ's blood (not faith to go to church, etc.), all by itself, apart from the merit of any law or non-law obedience. James teaches us that the faith that justifies (all by itself) must also be SEEN in what we do, not just in what we profess.

We don't make ourselves righteous by acting on our faith. We SHOW ourselves to be righteous (also called being justified) by what we do. A so-called faith in the love of God that can not be seen in a giving of that love to others is a false faith...a dead faith. It has no power to save. Adding works to faith doesn't make faith able to make one righteous. It SHOWS a person to have been made righteous by faith..all by itself as Paul teaches. Our duty is to show we have this faith that justifies...all by itself apart from the merit of our obedience (outside of the obedience of faith in Christ, of course).

Excellant post, explained quite well. Thank you.
 
If being justified doesn't mean 'being declared (made) righteous', and it doesn't mean 'being declared (shown to be) righteous', then what could it possibly mean to you?

The forum is not a big thing for me anymore. I'm just chiming in as I can. I will get to everything you brought up in your post in time. You do need to clarify what you say being 'justified' means if, as it appears, it does not mean either of the two definitions I just provided. Until you do, too much more discussion may prove to mean very little.

In the mean time I challenge you to do a reread of James 1 and 2 to see that James' argument has everything to do with obedience of the 'royal law of scripture' found in the law. It plainly has everything to do with the way a person is justified (shown to be righteous). The very example he uses to show that faith must be an active, living faith to be able to save is 'love your neighbor as yourself' and a very specific lawful command (the reference of which escapes me at the moment, lol). But since the leadership of the early church decided we didn't need the law anymore few know James is indeed talking about the very law of Moses.

Oh boy?! Maybe I didn't understand your first post that I agreed with. Please help me to understand. We are justified by the law of Moses, Rahab was justified by the law of Moses?? Sorry
 
Oh boy?! Maybe I didn't understand your first post that I agreed with. Please help me to understand. We are justified by the law of Moses, Rahab was justified by the law of Moses?? Sorry

I'm confident that once I explain you won't regret your kind and supportive comments to my post.

'Justified' has two Biblical definitions. Paul is using one, while James is using the other. Paul teaches us that we are MADE righteous by our faith in Christ. James teaches us that we are SHOWN to be righteous when we obey the lawful command to 'love your neighbor as yourself'. 'Justify' means to, both, be MADE righteous and to be SHOWN to be righteous. The context of Paul's and James' letters show us what definition each is defending.

James is not lying. James is not a false teacher. As he says, we are indeed justified by faith and by what we do by that faith. What we believe MAKES us righteous before God. What we do SHOWS us to have been made righteous before God. Both being made righteous and being shown to be righteous is referred to as being justified.
 
So then your position is that we are justfied by faith and by keeping the law of moses?
That's what James says. Hopefully my explanation to Deborah will help you understand.


And the "royal law" is not the law of Christ which is to love as He loves us? but it is really the law of moses? Written and engraved on stones?
'Love your neighbor as yourself' is still the law. Paul explains how we uphold the law by faith, not nullify it (Romans 3:31 I think). Paul also explains that what we do in this New Covenant is serve in the new WAY of the Spirit (Romans 7). We are guided by the Spirit of God himself, not just by letters carved in stone. Either way, it's stil the law of Moses ('love your neighbor as yourself') that gets upheld...just in the NEW way of the Spirit.

If this is your position I have a few questions about the law for you? Are you able and willing to defend your position as you have stated?
Able and willing. It's one of my favorite subjects.


For it is written that some will desire to be teachers of the law and not know what they are saying or trying to affirm!
I will be very glad to discuss this issue in an honest and respectful way if you would like?
I would like that.

I'm pretty sure that you would not argue that you uphold the requirements of the law by your faith in Christ. Faith in Christ means 'doing no harm to your neighbor' (Romans 13:8 or 10 around there). That means not murdering, not coveting others things, not stealing, not lying, not bearing false witness, not sleeping with your neighbor's wife, honoring your parents. Faith, by the Spirit of God inside of us, is how we keep these laws (summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'--Romans 13) in this New Covenant. The old way of mere written words on stone outside of our ourselves did not work. Same law...new way to fulfill, or keep, or uphold it.

People who keep the law by loving others and doing them no harm SHOW themselves to have the righteousness of God--the righteousness that Paul says is granted on the basis of faith APART FROM the merit of work. Faith MAKES us righteous before God. Obedient works SHOW us to have that righteousness. For those who believe in Christ and obey the requirements of God they are indeed justified by both faith and works. But that only makes sense if you understand that 'justify' has two Biblical meanings.
 
That's what James says. Hopefully my explanation to Deborah will help you understand.



'Love your neighbor as yourself' is still the law. Paul explains how we uphold the law by faith, not nullify it (Romans 3:31 I think). Paul also explains that what we do in this New Covenant is serve in the new WAY of the Spirit (Romans 7). We are guided by the Spirit of God himself, not just by letters carved in stone. Either way, it's stil the law of Moses ('love your neighbor as yourself') that gets upheld...just in the NEW way of the Spirit.


Able and willing. It's one of my favorite subjects.



I would like that.

I'm pretty sure that you would not argue that you uphold the requirements of the law by your faith in Christ. Faith in Christ means 'doing no harm to your neighbor' (Romans 13:8 or 10 around there). That means not murdering, not coveting others things, not stealing, not lying, not bearing false witness, not sleeping with your neighbor's wife, honoring your parents. Faith, by the Spirit of God inside of us, is how we keep these laws (summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'--Romans 13) in this New Covenant. The old way of mere written words on stone outside of our ourselves did not work. Same law...new way to fulfill, or keep, or uphold it.

People who keep the law by loving others and doing them no harm SHOW themselves to have the righteousness of God--the righteousness that Paul says is granted on the basis of faith APART FROM the merit of work. Faith MAKES us righteous before God. Obedient works SHOW us to have that righteousness. For those who believe in Christ and obey the requirements of God they are indeed justified by both faith and works. But that only makes sense if you understand that 'justify' has two Biblical meanings.

So then your position is that when one has done these works that bring them into agreement with the law of moses that they are justified? That they are kinda justfied by faith but then they must complete their faith by keeping the moral standard of the law? This is your position? First I have two questions? what part of the law? every jot and tittle as the Lord declared? or just the Ten Commandments? And have some of them past away? is it now the 9 commandments or 8 commandments?
Also RAHAB THE HARLOT! she does not seem very moral and kept NO COMMANDMENT by which to be justified.
By the way, you are not saying the word for being "justified" is a different word are you? You just think it has a different meaning?

I would like to get you to take firm stands on your positions, because it seems as I bring forth scripture in these discussions that folks seem to change their positions. Thus we have those "who do not know what they are trying to affirm"
 
...Rahab was justified by the law of Moses?? Sorry
Not that I know of. She was justified (MADE righteous) by her faith in the promise of a seed given to Abraham. How do we know she had faith in the promises made to Abraham? By her giving aid and comfort to the people sent out ahead of the coming invasion of the people of God.

Rahab is an illustration that James uses to show us that the faith that saves is the faith that ALSO acts in accordance with what it believes. Too many people view the illustration of Rahab too literally. The story of Rahab is a type and figure of how God's invading army will one day storm the earth and execute judgment on it's idolatrous and adulterous inhabitants. But he has sent people ahead of him to scope out the land. Some of us unfaithful harlots dwelling in the land hear the message of the coming invasion/judgment and switch sides giving aid and comfort to the prophets and teachers God has sent to warn the earth of what's coming. Those who do that will be spared on the Day of the Invasion. How they act shows us what they believe about the coming judgment. You must be 'justified' in both these ways to expect to spared on the Day of Judgment.


EVERYBODY is made righteous (justified) the way Rahab was--by faith in the seed promised to Abraham and his descendants. For us, this far down the pike, our faith rests very specifically in the promised seed and His finished work on the cross. Faith in the Promised Seed is how we are declared (MADE) righteous. The obedience that stems from faith in the Promised Son is how we are also declared (SHOWEN to be) righteous. Not many people know that 'justify' has two distinct Biblical meanings.
 
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