When you speak in tongues, what does it sound like?
A language, or jibberish?
A baby when first learning a language sounds like incoherent at first until they mature and learn to pronounce all the syllables correctly.
JLB
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Tongues As A Sign For Unbelievers.
- Thread starter Jacob62
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When you speak in tongues, what does it sound like?
A language, or jibberish?
A baby when first learning a language sounds like incoherent at first until they mature and learn to pronounce all the syllables correctly.
JLB
JLB My dearest brother in Christ.
To answer your question in a round-about way, the more I find differences in what we all believe, the more God takes me back to 1st Corinthians 13 and many other verses about loving God, loving my neighbor, loving my brothers, loving those who hate me and loving those who persecute me.
The more I study any topic, the more I find love as the main theme throughout the entire New Testament Far above having knowledge that gives us our faith.
1st Corinthians 13:13 "But now faith, hope, and love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love!!!
The more I read and study, the more emphasis God puts on love becomes more and more astounding to me.
God says here that love is greater than knowledge, not that knowledge isn't important, because it is, but in discussions, love should always reign supreme in our interactions with EVERYONE.
Gods greatest gift to mankind seems to be the umbrella of His great love, that all things that transpire should be continually and consistently bathed in that Godly love, always with full knowledge and the complete choice of that purposely applied love by us all, no matter how difficult someone, anyone, is to love, we must cling to the cross as we are convicted to love, and let the cross bear the fruit of love in each of us, as each morning we take up our cross, our burdens and the convictions brought to us by Christ to grow from, sometimes from great pains of conviction like I feel right now.
The Excellence of Love
13 If I speak with the tongues of mankind and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all KNOWLEDGE, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give away all my possessions to charity, and if I surrender my body so that I may [a]glory, but do not have love, it does me no good.4 Love is patient, love is kind, it is not jealous; love does not brag, it is not arrogant. 5 It does not act disgracefully, it does not seek its own benefit; it is not provoked, does not keep an account of a wrong suffered, 6 it does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 it [b]keeps every confidence, it believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails.
JLB If you put all the BOLD PRINTED WORDS TOGETHER above in 1st Cor. 13, to form a thought, the result is pretty powerful, and speaks volumes to the idea of loving everyone.
JLB, I sincerely believe you and I have different views on how we come to salvation, and different views on how the Holy Spirit is a part of that conversion experience and process, but I honestly also believe that in your own heart what you believe is the truth for you, just as I believe that my salvation experience was the most wonderful day in my life, and I cling to that experience as the center of my life and my faith.
I would answer your question above, but instead, I want to express my greatest joy in knowing you, and that I overflow in Godly love for you, and never want to cause you to fall on one item that is part of your faith.
You are tremendously kind and loving, and always speak to me and others with great respect, and I don't want to lose any of that.
Thank you for being such a gracious example of God's greatest gift to all of us.
In God's great love,
Seasoned by Grace
Romans 13:8
King James Version
8 Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
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Serving Zion
Member
When I speak in the tongues of angels it more often sounds like condemnation (ie: Psalms 7:12) - but not always (eg Isaiah 57:2, Jeremiah 17:2).
I haven't exercised the speaking in tongues as Pentecostals do it (ie "glossolalia"), since I was 17 years of age. Even in those days I was ashamed to do it.
Im sorry to hear that.
The difference is that those languages actually convey meaning, but modern "tongues" doesn't. Expert linguists have studied modern "tongues" for decades, and has shown that there is not enough vocabulary or language structure to convey any meaning. So the only "meaning" that modern "tongues" has is supporting the religious culture. Modern "tongues" is nothing more than a natural human phenomenon in which a person can fluently babble some random syllables conducive to his native language. This has been proven by clinical tests. There is nothing miraculous about it.
PaulChristensen
Member
Here's how I see your position on tongues:
Basic premise: "I don't believe in modern tongues."
Next premise: "Modern tongues are false".
I will then compile evidence to support my premise, and ignore evidence that doesn't fit into my basic premise.
Even though I am faced with conclusive evidence that modern tongues is genuine, I choose not to believe it because I am convinced that modern tongues is false, and no one is going to convince me otherwise.
This means that you will continue to repeat the old chestnuts on every "tongues" thread to bolster your unbelief, and ensure that any doubts that you might have about your premise and kept suppressed.
Tests by linguists to try and "prove" that tongues are not genuine languages, can easily be refuted. No serious Pentecostal is going to submit to such a test. It would be tantamount to insulting the Holy Spirit. And if a linguist sneaked into a Pentecostal service to record people worshiping the Lord in tongues, the Holy Spirit, being no fool, would see it, and turn the "test" into absolute nonsense, just like when the counsel of Ahithophel was turned into foolishness as described in 2 Samuel 15:31.
There is a mountain of problems with modern P/C (Pentecostal/Charismatic) tongues. But the heart of the matter is what exactly is it? Linguists have studied it over the decades, and concluded that it doesn't have the vocabulary or structure to convey any meaning. It's a human phenomenon that anyone can do if they try hard enough and get enough practice. The same kind of babbling is done by people of other religions. It's a natural phenomenon, and not miraculous.
The only way glossolalia can be proven to be miraculous is if a real language is spoken that conveys meaning, and someone translates the message. I've heard testimonies (anecdotal evidence) that this has happened, but I have doubts because of the well-known way that certain people exaggerate. I've heard many dozens of testimonies of the miraculous when it was obvious to me there was no miracle. This is in addition to people like Popoff, Grant, and Hinn who were all charlatans.
Another indication that it's not of God is the fact that they teach false doctrines, such as one denomination's doctrinal statement that "tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit." This prompts them to expect everyone to speak in tongues, such that some denominations actually say that whoever hasn't spoken in tongues doesn't have the Holy Spirit. This leads to arrogance and false judgment against other Christians.
The Bible tells us that not everyone having the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues. Paul wrote "do all speak in tongues?" in a context that requires a NO answer to that rhetorical question. Yet, P/Cs expect everyone to speak in tongues, and teach that it's evidence you've received the Spirit. What is wrong with this picture is that the Holy Spirit isn't doing it, because it is a natural human ability. Anyone can do it, and the expectation that all Christians should do it in order to show they have received the Spirit is evidence that it is natural and not spiritual.
It is self-deception to claim that it's a miraculous event when it's not. The human mind is a very complex instrument. Just because someone has an inspirational moment (while speaking gibberish or seeing someone else do it), doesn't mean it's from God. People in other religions have inspirational highs in their own form of worship, which we call idolatry. So inspirational highs is also a human phenomenon. My point is that an inspirational high can deceive a person into thinking that something is of God when it's not.
I could throw your words right back at you, because you have a vested interest in believing in your religious activity. Yet, you hypothesize about me when you don't know me. I was in the P/C camp for 20 years. I believed in modern tongues and practiced it. But God showed me that it was not of Him. Yet it took me more than a decade to leave that camp because I was hooked. Now that I'm free of that bondage, I can freely talk about it. No, I'm not buying what you're selling.
Christ_empowered
Member
the only time I ever saw tongues was on an outing with a Christian rehab facility. I was already...24, 25...in most places, I would have been in the state hospital, but...blah blah blah....
point is, even in my sad state, it range...false. so did the minister's 'interpretation' ugh. :-(
point is, even in my sad state, it range...false. so did the minister's 'interpretation' ugh. :-(
PaulChristensen
Member
How did God show you? He showed me through the Scriptures that my prayer in tongues is from Him. Seeing that God speaks through His Word, then He must have spoken to you that way. If not, then which God spoke to you and how?
PaulChristensen
Member
Not the same as being in an established church where the gifts are properly taught through Scripture.
One day while I was practicing tongues as I was taught by my leaders, I heard God clearly say to me "This is not of Me." Later I had a very powerful and vivid dream that told me modern tongues was not the miraculous gift described in the NT, and that if I spoke it I would be mocking the Holy Spirit. Then over the years I investigated it, in order to do due diligence, and came to the same conclusion as the linguists who also investigated it. After much study of the scripture, I concluded that the miraculous languages the apostles spoke in Acts 2 is the same gift of languages that is spoken of subsequently, including what is described in 1 Cor. 14. To acknowledge the Acts 2 event as a precedent for interpreting subsequent miraculous language events is a correct hermeneutic rule. Therefore, since modern tongues is not the same thing as Biblical tongues, but rather not even a valid language, it cannot be a gift of the Holy Spirit. Modern tongues is a natural human phenomenon, and it is very unfortunate that many people are deceived about it. I myself was completely deceived about it for some time. Just because a person is a true believer in it, doesn't make it true or Biblical. But in my experience, many P/Cs have spent much time and effort inventing ways and interpretations to justify it.
Incidentally, there are other ways God speaks than through His Word. If you are Charismatic, then surely you know this already. When God speaks, it's time to be silent and listen.
PaulChristensen
Member
So you heard a "voice" and had a dream. Every pseudo-christian cult that I know of started with someone hearing a voice and having a dream.
The God of the Bible speaks through His Word, which has been recorded in the pages of the Bible. Jesus said that when the Holy Spirit comes He will bring to remembrance all the words that He has said to them. Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what he did, so Paul's writing is also the words of Jesus as spoken to him through the Holy Spirit.
My faith is built on the written Word of God, not on "voices" or dreams. If people put their fair on voices and dreams rather than God's Word, the devil will always provide a lying spirit to provide them.
You say that God can speak in ways other than the Bible. Yes He can, but He will never say anything and conflicts with what He has already said through the pages of the Bible. When I asked the Lord about my prayer language, He said, "I have provided a whole chapter in the Bible that explains what it is, what it is for, and how to use it correctly. I went and did a close study of that chapter, and my faith that my prayer language is genuine is based on what Paul wrote in that chapter.
If you did what your leaders taught you, and did not search the Scriptures for yourself to see what the Holy Spirit taught about it, then I can understand that your faith in your tongues speaking was based on the teaching of man and not from God's Word.
When I left the Pentecostal church in 1978, I didn't stop praying in tongues because the foundation of my prayer language is not based on teaching from Pentecostal teachers. It is based on God's Word, conveyed by the Holy Spirit in 1 Corinthians 14.
If you are judging modern tongues through testing by linguists, then you are basing something apart from what is clearly written in God's Word. Faith comes by hearing or reading God's Word. Therefore if you are ignoring God's Word concerning the gift of tongues, then I am not surprised that you are unbelieving concerning it.
It seems that your attitude to the gift is based on man and not God, and I think that the god who spoke to you and gave you that dream was not the God of the Bible.
Serving Zion
Member
Could you name a church like that in New Zealand? I'd like to visit it.
I do understand your viewpoint, however I disagree. My understanding of the phenomenon is based on scripture. In the NT, the gift was miraculous, and was proven so by obvious acts. Modern babbling is not the same thing. God does not tell us to blindly believe what people say and do, but this is what the neo-tongues movement has been from the beginning. It was introduced by a deceiver who was deceived himself, and it was propagated to what it is today. The problem is that the Bible lacks data that clearly should say that babbling nonsense is not of God.
But NT tongues is clearly real languages that convey meaning and are understood, unlike the modern tongues movement. In Acts 11:15 Peter says concerning the house of Cornelius: "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning." Note he says "just as He did upon us at the beginning." This means that when they spoke in tongues (10:46) they spoke real languages like the apostles did in ch. 2. This is evidence that the real languages precedent follows through to every time tongues is mentioned in the NT, including 1 Cor. 14.
Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:10 "There are, perhaps, a great many kinds of languages in the world, and none is incapable of meaning." This proves he is talking about real languages. In contrast, modern tongues is not that, because it actually is incapable of meaning. This is proven not only by linguistic analysis, but also by the practice itself. No time in the past 100 years has that gibberish been spoken with any meaning of any message. The fact that people poke attempts at interpreting the meaning (when there really is none) just shows that it is all a pretense. It's people who are pretending that they are receiving messages from God, and acting like it, because they have a vested interest in believing in it.
But people don't like the fact that it is evaluated and proven false, because it touches their sacred cow. Paul in 1 Cor. 14 said that prophecies must be evaluated. So why don't P/Cs want their tongues evaluated? I suggest that they are afraid the falseness of the activity will be exposed, and they don't want that, because they have a vested interest in keeping it mysterious. It's a culture of deception where people are enrolled in pretense.
The fact that people in other religions do the same thing should speak loudly to us that something is wrong with it, that is, with the claim that it's a miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit. To claim that when in reality it is merely a natural human ability is a sin, and taking the name of the Lord in vain. It's no different than someone saying that he was sent by God to give a message, and then proceeds to give a false message. For someone to stand in a church service and say "I have a message from God," and then begin speaking that babble that conveys no meaning, such a person is taking the name of the Lord in vain.
All you have is a claim, which I say proves nothing at all. You simply make an assertion that your practice is based on God's word, but you give no detail at all. This actually proves my point that you want to keep it mysterious so that people will continue to make assumptions that have no basis in fact. It begs the question, how exactly did you come into it? What is the detailed history? How did you hear about it? and so on. Unless you are willing to write out your detailed historical account, then your assertion has no power in it. It also begs the question will you confess all the truth about it, or will you filter your history according to your agenda? Filtering the testimony to say only what you think supports your idea is akin to lying. If you are unwilling to say, for example, that someone said to you "speak, but not in English," or any such thing to "help" you along, then it just proves that what you have is false, because you have an agenda to keep it in the realm of mystery. This is typical of P/Cs, and in my experience, when you get close to touching their sacred cow in that way, they run away, because they don't want their "gift" exposed or their "fig leaves" ripped off.
So instead of confessing all, what you like to do (as shown by your response) is to make false judgments about my situation. But let's get to the heart of the matter, and see if you will confess all, and evaluate what you have by scripture. I hope you can see that my interpretation that NT tongues being real languages is correct, and my hermeneutic is sound.
PaulChristensen
Member
Linwood Baptist in Christchurch.
PaulChristensen
Member
I can understand your reasoning. Seeing that most if not all Evangelical churches, and many Pentecostal churches have their theology and programmes based on man's wisdom, I am not surprised that you think this way.
You claim "man's wisdom" in complete disregard of proper biblical interpretation, which I have done above. But your opinion looks to me like "man's wisdom" because of poor hermeneutics. What is typical of P/Cs is that they decide their experience is of God, and then look for ways to make scripture appear like it supports it. Do you care to discuss ways in which they have done that and are still doing it?
PaulChristensen
Member
I just base my opinion on the whole of 1Corinthians 14, not cherry picked random verses from it.
daninthelionsden
Member
My 2 cents. I don't believe in speaking in tongues on command. I speak in tongues in private prayer when things seem so bad/confusing that I don't know what to say/ask for so I let my spirit cry out to the Father. I rarely do that, but when I do, it's really when I'm at the end of my rope.