Serving Zion
Member
Where did this photo come from? Is it part of the Kundalini Warning by Andrew Strom?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Tongues As A Sign For Unbelievers.
- Thread starter Jacob62
- Start date
PaulChristensen
Member
Looks like tarring and feathering all Pentecostals and Charismatics for the few whose antics are not supported by the majority.
Serving Zion
Member
I'd like to hear from the person who posted it (theMadJW), whether he can expound upon the meaning and context of it. What appears to be "normal" worship to one person may look like someone rolling around in hysteria to another, and having seen the one picture I actually want to have more information about it.
PaulChristensen
Member
There may be a few groups that look like Pentecostals, but are really counterfeits pretending to be, in the United States, but I haven't encountered any groups here in New Zealand. Perhaps we are not infected with American religious culture down here.
In fact, some of the most prominent Pentecostals, such as the late David Wilkerson, soundly attacked the spurious manifestations as as far away from the true manifestation of the Holy Spirit as one could get.
This my story of speaking in tongues . When I went to the alter at my local church to pray for my salvation after I prayed and accepted Jesus as my savior I stood there at the alter and words were wanting to come out of my mouth that were NOT my words . I was shocked and thought what is happening to me and I did not let The Holy Spirit have the utterance . Over the next few weeks I came to understand that The Holy Spirit was wanting to speak through me when I was at the alter . At a later church service anyone with a need went to the alter for prayer and I went and was prayed for and began speaking in tongues . No training , no teaching it just flowed . Now have I ever gave a message out in tongues in a church service , no I have not . I do pray in tongues when I am alone most of the time . Sometimes a melody come with the words and I sing my prayer , this is not very often but so great when it does happen
. Are the tongues I pray in "modern" no not at all . What language is the tongues I pray in ? Well there are two names I have heard when I pray in tongues , Eli and Allah . I have had dreams too one that had a vivid part . I wonder if your dream was a warning of false tongues , that being ones you are trained to say . If you have any questions I will try my best to answer them .
That is a photo of Todd Bentley.
Do you believe Andrew Strom and others who warn about the Kundalini spirit being a false Holy Spirit?
JLB
This my story of speaking in tongues . When I went to the alter at my local church to pray for my salvation after I prayed and accepted Jesus as my savior I stood there at the alter and words were wanting to come out of my mouth that were NOT my words . I was shocked and thought what is happening to me and I did not let The Holy Spirit have the utterance . Over the next few weeks I came to understand that The Holy Spirit was wanting to speak through me when I was at the alter . At a later church service anyone with a need went to the alter for prayer and I went and was prayed for and began speaking in tongues . No training , no teaching it just flowed . Now have I ever gave a message out in tongues in a church service , no I have not . I do pray in tongues when I am alone most of the time . Sometimes a melody come with the words and I sing my prayer , this is not very often but so great when it does happen
I have had dreams too one that had a vivid part . I wonder if your dream was a warning of false tongues , that being ones you are trained to say . If you have any questions I will try my best to answer them .
Amen. Wonderful testimony.
The baptism with the Holy Spirit is called the Promise of the Father, and is for all. It comes with evidence that is seen and or heard.
And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5
The baptism with the Holy Spirit is a separate baptism from water baptism.
JLB
Ok, everyone has a testimony, and I'm sure you believe your tongues is of God with all your heart. But are you willing to take my challenge I related above, about having your tongues evaluated? If the prophets are evaluated as Paul commanded, then surely tongues is evaluated for the same reason. Are you willing to do it?This my story of speaking in tongues . When I went to the alter at my local church to pray for my salvation after I prayed and accepted Jesus as my savior I stood there at the alter and words were wanting to come out of my mouth that were NOT my words . I was shocked and thought what is happening to me and I did not let The Holy Spirit have the utterance . Over the next few weeks I came to understand that The Holy Spirit was wanting to speak through me when I was at the alter . At a later church service anyone with a need went to the alter for prayer and I went and was prayed for and began speaking in tongues . No training , no teaching it just flowed . Now have I ever gave a message out in tongues in a church service , no I have not . I do pray in tongues when I am alone most of the time . Sometimes a melody come with the words and I sing my prayer , this is not very often but so great when it does happen
I have had dreams too one that had a vivid part . I wonder if your dream was a warning of false tongues , that being ones you are trained to say . If you have any questions I will try my best to answer them .
Serving Zion
Member
I've seen that documentary and it sure isn't holy behaviour. Not every spirit that claims to be the Holy Spirit in fact is of God (1 John 4:1). "If a ruler hearkens to lies, all of his servants wicked become". It's a very interesting explanation for the times we are in. The events in the 1980's happened before I can remember.
Tessa
Member
Thanks for sharing hawkmanThis my story of speaking in tongues . When I went to the alter at my local church to pray for my salvation after I prayed and accepted Jesus as my savior I stood there at the alter and words were wanting to come out of my mouth that were NOT my words . I was shocked and thought what is happening to me and I did not let The Holy Spirit have the utterance . Over the next few weeks I came to understand that The Holy Spirit was wanting to speak through me when I was at the alter . At a later church service anyone with a need went to the alter for prayer and I went and was prayed for and began speaking in tongues . No training , no teaching it just flowed . Now have I ever gave a message out in tongues in a church service , no I have not . I do pray in tongues when I am alone most of the time . Sometimes a melody come with the words and I sing my prayer , this is not very often but so great when it does happen
I have had dreams too one that had a vivid part . I wonder if your dream was a warning of false tongues , that being ones you are trained to say . If you have any questions I will try my best to answer them .
It must be a marvellous experience to speak in tongues.
Yes, I agree there is a counterfeit move of the Holy Spirit.
I think Andrew’s message is important.
However, on the other side of the proverbial coin, we have those who claim that there are no gifts of the Spirit today. That all that ended wth the last apostles. Cessationism.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is just one of the baptisms that all believers should have.
JLB
When I do pray in tongues it does seem to be the same language every time and I have wondered what language it is . Who would you propose to evaluate someone speaking in tongues ? If you have not seen this video their gift of tongues is being evaluated .
Are you saying you have the gift of interpretation of tongues?
This is what I observe about that video:
1. The announcers have an obvious bias in favor of P/C (Pentecostal/Charismatic) interpretation, simply because they don't know what it is. That bias is simply assumed.
2. Several people testify of fleshly responses, such as "I get goose bumps" and "I can feel him all around."
3. One announcer says that they claim "ecstatic religious feelings."
4. Typical bias of P/Cs with traditional arguments like "any language sounds like gibberish" and "it's a heavenly language."
5. The brain scan proves nothing at all, since whoever has a bias can interpret whatever they see in whatever way their agenda directs.
6. There is no comparison to people of other religions who speak in tongues, such as Mormons, Muslims, Hindus, Voodoo practitioners, and such.
From where I'm looking, it is very feeling focused, which is fleshly, and it is interpreted according to P/C bias. Therefore, this video proves nothing, as is typical of such videos of people speaking modern tongues.
I wrote some of the more articulate portions of various peoples' tongues:
1. see kee a bo bo sa ra bo bo see dee a...
2. ma ma ma ma ma ma
3. se ye de de de de de se ya se ya ka sha...
and the pastor standing in group: see le ke see ye le donda kata lo koi keta...
the pastor lying on lab table: beleke le la monde shela mosse...
This type of speaking is typical of P/C tongues, which has been well evaluated by expert linguists, saying it is no language at all, because it has neither the vocabulary nor language structure to convey any meaning. So all this does is to confirm my belief that modern tongues is neither language nor miraculous, but is a human ability. Have you read what I wrote about this in previous posts of this thread? Like, for example at this link:
Tongues As A Sign For Unbelievers.
Well that's wrong. I'm just saying that the way it's done in every way I've seen it is not the same as the scriptural description, it's just babble. When you speak in tongues, what does it sound like? A language, or jibberish? A baby when first learning a language sounds like incoherent at...
christianforums.net
But I'm asking YOU, are YOU willing to have YOUR tongue evaluated by a linguist?
I am.
My language flows with distinct syllables sounding like some middle eastern language.
Praying in the Spirit builds us up and the more we do it the more the language seems to develop with more words and syllables.
JLB
Do you think this would help you in your understanding of what it is to speak or pray in tongues ? I don't really need to know the language that I pray in because the One I pray to does . I told you that I have not given a message out in tongues in a church service but I did have this to happen . A few years back I was a patient on a limited access floor of a hospital , I was in for observation , how I came to be in the hospital is an epic story . Once a day we would have a session with a leader asking a question and we would take turns giving our thoughts . The leader asked the question and I was not first in line to answer and as I was sitting there trying to form an answer in my head it was NOT happening no matter how I tried ! I knew that something needed to be said but I could not even get two words together in my mind . When it came for my turn to speak much to my shock my mouth opened and out came the most eloquent words and the words came out with force and precision but they were NOT my words it was the Holy Spirit giving the message in English . I am by no stretch of the imagination a good speaker , so my face had to be one of utter disbelief as the words came out of my mouth . So I came to understand what is meant by these verses , Matthew Chapter 10
| 19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. |
| 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. |
Ok, so you had an inspired moment. I've had similar experiences. But you didn't speak or pray in tongues then. There are many millions of Christians that are just as skeptical as I am about the modern P/C tongues movement. What would help them to believe in it is to see a video of someone speaking in it, and an evaluation by an expert linguist who can tell us if it has the vocabulary and language structure required to convey meaning. Otherwise, no amount of anecdotal stories can tell us whether it be of God or of men. There must be proof of the miraculous nature of it (that is, if it is speaking an actual language that conveys meaning), or else it's just babbling of men like what is done in pagan religions (and what I saw in the video link you posted).
It might help you to understand what I'm talking about if you go back in the history of this thread and read my posts.
Here is where we are at with our discussion . When I pray in tongues I know that I know it is of a "miraculous nature " as you put it . If YOU spoke in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance you would know this also . Just like it is to be born again . The proof of the miraculous nature of us being born again is felt in our spirit But do we have any hard proof we can display for experts to evaluate ? As far as having a linguist evaluate the tongue I pray in I am not sure I would be comfortable having that done , after all it is my spirit ( with the Holy Spirit giving the utterance ) in private communication with God . I feel like I would be putting God to the test , do you understand ? Now if you could have a linguist present where I gave out a message in tongues to group of people I would be more than glad to hear what the Linguist had to say !
I spent 20 years among the P/Cs, and the many times I heard modern tongues, not once did I hear anyone speak an intelligible language. Every time it was much like what I heard and saw on the video link you provided. Why should I waste an expert Linguist's time leading them around a wild goose chase? Your suggestion isn't good enough. If you want others to be sure that your tongue is miraculous, then you'll have to prove it. Otherwise, I don't believe a word you say, because your word is no better than any other exaggerative word of any other P/C IMO. Like I said, I've no doubt you believe in it, but I don't. That's where we're at.
And if you say that you are uncomfortable with the proof-positive method I suggested, then my conclusion is that you know intuitively that it would prove your tongue is just babbling without meaning. So your refusal is just confirmation to me that you don't have a miraculous gift from God, but that your tongues is the same thing as what other P/Cs do, and the same thing they do in pagan religions. And if that's the case, then you are as deceived as anyone in pagan religions who think they are speaking "languages of the gods."
As far as putting God to the test, it seems to me you don't know what that means. In reference to whether God will do what He promised, He said "put Me to the test..." (Mal. 3:10, ESV) or "prove me now herewith" (KJV). Jesus used that phrase against the devil when He was tempted to cheat death. Can you see that there is a world of difference? If you prove God with your "miraculous gift," are you tempting Him or are you glorifying Him? It just seems to me that you are afraid to expose yourself, lest you find out that what you're doing really is pretention, and that you are self-deceived.
So I don't care what you think you know. I care what the Bible teaches, and modern P/C tongues isn't it. If you're interested in how I come to that conclusion, then you should read all my posts in this thread. If you have any questions about that, or about how I exegete the scripture, I'd be glad to respond. Otherwise, is this where our paths diverge?
PaulChristensen
Member
Why should anyone choose to have their prayer language evaluated by someone? If tongues is a prayer to God, then God is the only Person who has the right to evaluate it. Do you know who Jesus really is, or who the Holy Spirit really is, that having some human being made more important than Him?
So, who is going to evaluate my prayer language? You? And who are you? Are you a specially appointed person by the Holy Spirit to evaluate the prayer language of Charismatic Christians? If you are not that person, who do you think is? A secular, unconverted linguist?
Actually, I fully support Michael L Brown, who has a PhD in the linguist Old Testament study of God the Healer. He is totally fluent in Hebrew and Greek. If he says that modern tongues is genuine, then I would take his word over any lesser mortal.