Tongues As A Sign For Unbelievers.

[Serving Zion]

My 2 cents. I don't believe in speaking in tongues on command. I speak in tongues in private prayer when things seem so bad/confusing that I don't know what to say/ask for so I let my spirit cry out to the Father. I rarely do that, but when I do, it's really when I'm at the end of my rope.

I am sure God does not condemn you for that. In fact the only condemnation comes because of those who turn away on account of the ones who do it (ie: 1 Corinthians 14:23). It gives an opportunity for the devil to turn the disbelievers against the knowledge of God.

 

[Randy]

I think the Lord considers this the greater sign:

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

 

[tdidymas]

I just base my opinion on the whole of 1Corinthians 14, not cherry picked random verses from it.

Your assertion doesn't accomplish anything. Either exegete the text, or concede that you can't refute my interpretation. The Bible says clearly that the tongues they were talking about were real languages. Never does it say that tongues was ever meaningless babble, which P/Cs do. Fluency doesn't make it a gift of the Spirit, nor does belief in it make it true.

 

[PaulChristensen]

My 2 cents. I don't believe in speaking in tongues on command. I speak in tongues in private prayer when things seem so bad/confusing that I don't know what to say/ask for so I let my spirit cry out to the Father. I rarely do that, but when I do, it's really when I'm at the end of my rope.

I pray in tongues because I enjoy it as a continued enhancement to my prayer life. I don't have to wait until I experience a certain emotional state before using it. That would sound like using the facility as a last resort. It is like saying, "If all else fails, try praying", as if I should be trying my best in my own strength and then bringing God in only when I can't do it myself. That doesn't sound like fellowship with God to me. It is more like using God as a push-button vending machine to be used at one's convenience, than fellowshiping with God as Father and friend. What would I think of my daughter if she only contacted me if she was desperate and needed money to pay her bills, and never came to visit and spend time with me just because she enjoys spending time with her father?

When I pray in tongues, I know that I am fellowshiping with the Father in a very meaningful way, and so I pray in tongues every opportunity I get whether I need something from Him or not.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Your assertion doesn't accomplish anything. Either exegete the text, or concede that you can't refute my interpretation. The Bible says clearly that the tongues they were talking about were real languages. Never does it say that tongues was ever meaningless babble, which P/Cs do. Fluency doesn't make it a gift of the Spirit, nor does belief in it make it true.

You might see it as meaningless babble, but you have no proof that God does. There is a Scripture that says that God uses the foolish things to confound the wise. How do you know that God is using what you think is "meaningless babble" to confound those who prefer man's wisdom instead of God's Word?

I have done a full exegesis of 1 Corinthians 14 and find nothing in it that proves that the way modern believers pray in tongues is just babble that is meaningless to God. Just because you decide that modern tongues is meaningless, doesn't mean that God agrees with you about it.

There have been many instances where modern believers have prayed in tongues in a meeting, and it has sounded meaningless to everyone in that meeting except one who heard a believer speaking in his own language dialect. There could have been cessationists in that meeting doing a linguistic study of the language and purported to prove that the language was meaningless when it turned out to be an understandable language spoken for the ears of a specific person in the crowd.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:2 that when a person prays in tongues he speaks to God [and not to man], so what could be meaningless to man [howbeit man does not understand him] could be openly understood by God, who knows the mind of the Spirit, so that when someone prays in the Spirit using tongues, God knows what the Spirit is saying through the person, and all the while it sounds meaningless to everyone else, including you.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I pray in tongues because I enjoy it as a continued enhancement to my prayer life. I don't have to wait until I experience a certain emotional state before using it. That would sound like using the facility as a last resort. It is like saying, "If all else fails, try praying", as if I should be trying my best in my own strength and then bringing God in only when I can't do it myself. That doesn't sound like fellowship with God to me. It is more like using God as a push-button vending machine to be used at one's convenience, than fellowshiping with God as Father and friend. What would I think of my daughter if she only contacted me if she was desperate and needed money to pay her bills, and never came to visit and spend time with me just because she enjoys spending time with her father?

When I pray in tongues, I know that I am fellowshiping with the Father in a very meaningful way, and so I pray in tongues every opportunity I get whether I need something from Him or not.

Good for you.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Good for you.

Did you know that as soon as you were converted to Christ, you received the baptism with the Spirit that transformed your heart and life so that you now hate the works of the flesh and have the strong desire to walk in the Spirit?

Therefore, if you have the indwelling Holy Spirit, you have all the spiritual 'tools' that come with Him. This means that you can pray in tongues any time you want, and He will give you the words. It is all according to your faith. Paul says in Romans for a person to prophesy according to their faith. It is the same with using tongues as an enhancement to prayer. If your faith is strong in the Word, then you will have greater confidence to ask the Holy Spirit to distribute to you the gift He has for you according to His will.

That's what Paul says: The Holy Spirit distributes the gifts according to His will. 1 Corinthians 12 lists the gifts or "tools" of the Spirit for the strengthening of the body of Christ. If we want to contribute to the strengthening of the body of Christ, then we will ask the Holy Spirit for the most effective tools to do the job well. One of the "tools" is "various tongues", which means that there is a ministry of tongues that go with interpretation in fellowship meetings, and there is another tongue for personal prayer. Church history shows that there has been instances where the Holy Spirit has given a particular foreign language to a missionary to be able to share the Gospel to native speakers of that language, like the woman who went to Italy and the Lord gave her the Italian language without her ever learning it, which she used to share the Gospel, and retained that language for the rest of her life. Another type of tongue is the one-off endowment of an understandable language for the Holy Spirit to give an instruction from someone not knowing the language, but speaking it. This happened in a meeting where an European man spoke in Cantonese which a young Chinese woman understood as "You need to go forward and receive Christ as Saviour". That European man did not continue to speak Cantonese after that. These are examples of "various tongues" as listed by Paul.

Having the facility to pray or speak in tongues, opens up possibilities where the Holy Spirit can use you to miraculously intervene in the life of another to make the difference between heaven or hell for them, or to increase their faith for effective ministry.

But then, what you never have, you won't miss.

 

[tdidymas]

You might see it as meaningless babble, but you have no proof that God does. There is a Scripture that says that God uses the foolish things to confound the wise. How do you know that God is using what you think is "meaningless babble" to confound those who prefer man's wisdom instead of God's Word?

I take it you are referring to Paul's words in 1 Cor. 1. But a correct exegesis of that passage shows that Paul is talking about the gospel he preaches, not meaningless babble. Jesus said not to pray in meaningless babble.

I have done a full exegesis of 1 Corinthians 14 and find nothing in it that proves that the way modern believers pray in tongues is just babble that is meaningless to God. Just because you decide that modern tongues is meaningless, doesn't mean that God agrees with you about it.

I don't believe your method of exegesis gets to the truth. I've already shown that Paul is talking about real languages in that chapter. And it was not I who "decided" that modern tongues is meaningless. God bore witness to me that it was, and the scripture agrees, and expert linguists agree. That's 3 witnesses.

There have been many instances where modern believers have prayed in tongues in a meeting, and it has sounded meaningless to everyone in that meeting except one who heard a believer speaking in his own language dialect. There could have been cessationists in that meeting doing a linguistic study of the language and purported to prove that the language was meaningless when it turned out to be an understandable language spoken for the ears of a specific person in the crowd.

I don't believe this story, because P/Cs typically exaggerate so much that I can't believe a word that comes out of their mouths. This is true of whatever appears on youtube as well as Christian TV, books, internet webpages, forums, and even testimonies in church. They're so hyped up, that anything and everything is a "miracle."

But in fact, it becomes very obvious that modern tongues is meaningless when you examine it carefully. The apostle Paul tells us to examine ourselves and doctrine, and the apostle John concurs. Modern tongues merely repeats the same random syllables over and over, whereas a real language has significant vocabulary and structure to convey meaning. Modern tongues does not convey meaning, and in fact is a natural ability, since anyone can do it. Even P/Cs imply this fact, since they expect that "all who receive the Spirit can speak in tongues," which is contrary to what the Bible says about it.

And even IF anyone has actually spoken in Biblical tongues (a real language) so that someone understood its meaning, the vast majority of P/C tongues is meaningless babble, such that the real gift of the Spirit is buried under a mountain of rubbish. So then, P/C tongues does no good for the church, nor for the glory of God. Like I said, no one can believe what P/Cs say except P/Cs, and that looks like a cult to an "outsider."

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:2 that when a person prays in tongues he speaks to God [and not to man], so what could be meaningless to man [howbeit man does not understand him] could be openly understood by God, who knows the mind of the Spirit, so that when someone prays in the Spirit using tongues, God knows what the Spirit is saying through the person, and all the while it sounds meaningless to everyone else, including you.

You are using the scripture in this case to justify P/C tongues which is not the same thing. Even Satan can quote scripture, and does so, except he changes the definition of the words in order to confuse. This is exactly what cultists do also. When a person speaks in a Biblical tongue (real language), they are actually conveying meaning which God understands, because He is the one speaking it through them. Modern P/C tongues doesn't convey meaning, so it is meaningless babble to anyone, including God.

But your idea is exactly what the pagans have concerning their "tongues" which they speak. They believe they are speaking the language of their gods, even though in reality it's just meaningless babble, which is a natural ability.

Here's the difference: Biblical tongues are real languages that have vocabulary and structure that conveys meaning. Modern P/C tongues are random syllables repeated which has a tiny vocabulary and no structure, and does not convey any meaning. If one examines them carefully and compares them side by side, it becomes obvious.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I take it you are referring to Paul's words in 1 Cor. 1. But a correct exegesis of that passage shows that Paul is talking about the gospel he preaches, not meaningless babble. Jesus said not to pray in meaningless babble.

I don't believe your method of exegesis gets to the truth. I've already shown that Paul is talking about real languages in that chapter. And it was not I who "decided" that modern tongues is meaningless. God bore witness to me that it was, and the scripture agrees, and expert linguists agree. That's 3 witnesses.

I don't believe this story, because P/Cs typically exaggerate so much that I can't believe a word that comes out of their mouths. This is true of whatever appears on youtube as well as Christian TV, books, internet webpages, forums, and even testimonies in church. They're so hyped up, that anything and everything is a "miracle."

But in fact, it becomes very obvious that modern tongues is meaningless when you examine it carefully. The apostle Paul tells us to examine ourselves and doctrine, and the apostle John concurs. Modern tongues merely repeats the same random syllables over and over, whereas a real language has significant vocabulary and structure to convey meaning. Modern tongues does not convey meaning, and in fact is a natural ability, since anyone can do it. Even P/Cs imply this fact, since they expect that "all who receive the Spirit can speak in tongues," which is contrary to what the Bible says about it.

And even IF anyone has actually spoken in Biblical tongues (a real language) so that someone understood its meaning, the vast majority of P/C tongues is meaningless babble, such that the real gift of the Spirit is buried under a mountain of rubbish. So then, P/C tongues does no good for the church, nor for the glory of God. Like I said, no one can believe what P/Cs say except P/Cs, and that looks like a cult to an "outsider."

You are using the scripture in this case to justify P/C tongues which is not the same thing. Even Satan can quote scripture, and does so, except he changes the definition of the words in order to confuse. This is exactly what cultists do also. When a person speaks in a Biblical tongue (real language), they are actually conveying meaning which God understands, because He is the one speaking it through them. Modern P/C tongues doesn't convey meaning, so it is meaningless babble to anyone, including God.

But your idea is exactly what the pagans have concerning their "tongues" which they speak. They believe they are speaking the language of their gods, even though in reality it's just meaningless babble, which is a natural ability.

Here's the difference: Biblical tongues are real languages that have vocabulary and structure that conveys meaning. Modern P/C tongues are random syllables repeated which has a tiny vocabulary and no structure, and does not convey any meaning. If one examines them carefully and compares them side by side, it becomes obvious.

There were two events that happened in my own church among people who spoke "babble" as you called it. One was where a close friend of mine was praying in "babble" in a prayer meeting, and a Ghanaian friend stopped the meeting and told my friend how he was speaking praises to God in his own village dialect. This was witnessed by around 25 people in that prayer meeting - all people that I know personally.

The other instance was what happened to me personally. I was praying in "babble" in a service while people were being prayed for at the front of the church. A New Zealand Maori lady sitting beside me told me that I spoke encouraging things to her from God in a fluent Maori language. I had no idea I was speaking in Maori at that time. All I knew was that I was speaking in tongues just like anyone in a Charismatic church. And my friend in the prayer meeting was doing just the same.

These two events were solid proof to me that the way my friend and I spoke in modern tongues was of the Holy Spirit and very real.

So, there is absolutely no way that you could ever prove to me that modern Pentecostals speak meaningless "babble". The only way you could try is to call my friend, the Ghanaian friend, 25 people in that prayer meeting, and me, liars.

 

[tdidymas]

There were two events that happened in my own church among people who spoke "babble" as you called it. One was where a close friend of mine was praying in "babble" in a prayer meeting, and a Ghanaian friend stopped the meeting and told my friend how he was speaking praises to God in his own village dialect. This was witnessed by around 25 people in that prayer meeting - all people that I know personally.

The other instance was what happened to me personally. I was praying in "babble" in a service while people were being prayed for at the front of the church. A New Zealand Maori lady sitting beside me told me that I spoke encouraging things to her from God in a fluent Maori language. I had no idea I was speaking in Maori at that time. All I knew was that I was speaking in tongues just like anyone in a Charismatic church. And my friend in the prayer meeting was doing just the same.

These two events were solid proof to me that the way my friend and I spoke in modern tongues was of the Holy Spirit and very real.

So, there is absolutely no way that you could ever prove to me that modern Pentecostals speak meaningless "babble". The only way you could try is to call my friend, the Ghanaian friend, 25 people in that prayer meeting, and me, liars.

Finally, I see some nitty-gritty from you, something you seemed to avoid before. Ok, suppose I take your word for it. For 20 years I heard meaningless babble from P/Cs (myself included), and everything posted on youtube with someone speaking modern tongues is meaningless babble, as I have described. If anything actually happened like you say, it is buried under a mountain of rubbish, so that no "outsider" believes it's real, and no "outsider" can trust what you say because of P/C hype and counterfeit gifts. Again, I say it looks like cult activity. I have a very hard time believing what you say. I don't call you a liar, just deceived in a culture of deception and hot air claims.

At the very least I would have to see it for myself and examine it carefully, because I can't just blindly believe what you say. The Christianity I know is a religion of historical facts, not one of empty claims. The miracles I see in scripture are obvious, not the secretive and false claims of P/Cs today. I know that God performs miraculous healings today. But the obvious fraud propagated by P/Cs tells me there is an abject ignorance among them.

And besides, I know that I cannot "prove to you" that modern P/Cs speak meaningless babble, because I acknowledge that you have a bias and a vested interest in denying it. However, I'd like to give you a link to a good read, in case you're interested:

Amazon.com

This is a 30-year investigation by a linguistic professor at a university. He writes sympathetically about modern tongues, saying it has religious and social value. Yet, he acknowledges that it is not miraculous, nor conveys any meaning, and shows the evidence by which he comes to such conclusion. It is IMO a very objective analysis.

But to be sure, I use that source as merely a confirmation of what I know by the testimony of scripture and the voice of God to me. So, unless you are willing to give me clear evidence (such as a link to a video of yourself or someone else speaking in tongues that you think is a real language, or other such evidence), then perhaps this is where our paths diverge.

 

[Jacob62]

There is a mountain of problems with modern P/C (Pentecostal/Charismatic) tongues. But the heart of the matter is what exactly is it? Linguists have studied it over the decades, and concluded that it doesn't have the vocabulary or structure to convey any meaning. It's a human phenomenon that anyone can do if they try hard enough and get enough practice. The same kind of babbling is done by people of other religions. It's a natural phenomenon, and not miraculous.

The only way glossolalia can be proven to be miraculous is if a real language is spoken that conveys meaning, and someone translates the message. I've heard testimonies (anecdotal evidence) that this has happened, but I have doubts because of the well-known way that certain people exaggerate. I've heard many dozens of testimonies of the miraculous when it was obvious to me there was no miracle. This is in addition to people like Popoff, Grant, and Hinn who were all charlatans.

Another indication that it's not of God is the fact that they teach false doctrines, such as one denomination's doctrinal statement that "tongues is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit." This prompts them to expect everyone to speak in tongues, such that some denominations actually say that whoever hasn't spoken in tongues doesn't have the Holy Spirit. This leads to arrogance and false judgment against other Christians.

The Bible tells us that not everyone having the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues. Paul wrote "do all speak in tongues?" in a context that requires a NO answer to that rhetorical question. Yet, P/Cs expect everyone to speak in tongues, and teach that it's evidence you've received the Spirit. What is wrong with this picture is that the Holy Spirit isn't doing it, because it is a natural human ability. Anyone can do it, and the expectation that all Christians should do it in order to show they have received the Spirit is evidence that it is natural and not spiritual.

It is self-deception to claim that it's a miraculous event when it's not. The human mind is a very complex instrument. Just because someone has an inspirational moment (while speaking gibberish or seeing someone else do it), doesn't mean it's from God. People in other religions have inspirational highs in their own form of worship, which we call idolatry. So inspirational highs is also a human phenomenon. My point is that an inspirational high can deceive a person into thinking that something is of God when it's not.

Is it your ministry to simply expound upon what others correctly state?

 

[PaulChristensen]

Finally, I see some nitty-gritty from you, something you seemed to avoid before. Ok, suppose I take your word for it. For 20 years I heard meaningless babble from P/Cs (myself included), and everything posted on youtube with someone speaking modern tongues is meaningless babble, as I have described. If anything actually happened like you say, it is buried under a mountain of rubbish, so that no "outsider" believes it's real, and no "outsider" can trust what you say because of P/C hype and counterfeit gifts. Again, I say it looks like cult activity. I have a very hard time believing what you say. I don't call you a liar, just deceived in a culture of deception and hot air claims.

At the very least I would have to see it for myself and examine it carefully, because I can't just blindly believe what you say. The Christianity I know is a religion of historical facts, not one of empty claims. The miracles I see in scripture are obvious, not the secretive and false claims of P/Cs today. I know that God performs miraculous healings today. But the obvious fraud propagated by P/Cs tells me there is an abject ignorance among them.

And besides, I know that I cannot "prove to you" that modern P/Cs speak meaningless babble, because I acknowledge that you have a bias and a vested interest in denying it. However, I'd like to give you a link to a good read, in case you're interested:

Amazon.com

This is a 30-year investigation by a linguistic professor at a university. He writes sympathetically about modern tongues, saying it has religious and social value. Yet, he acknowledges that it is not miraculous, nor conveys any meaning, and shows the evidence by which he comes to such conclusion. It is IMO a very objective analysis.

But to be sure, I use that source as merely a confirmation of what I know by the testimony of scripture and the voice of God to me. So, unless you are willing to give me clear evidence (such as a link to a video of yourself or someone else speaking in tongues that you think is a real language, or other such evidence), then perhaps this is where our paths diverge.

If you have been given certain teaching from your mentors in your initial formative years in the faith, or brought up with it through your childhood at church, then I can fully understand where you are coming from.

I agree that there is a lot of rubbish and misconception about the Spiritual gifts, mainly coming from churches like Bethel, Hillsong, and Kenny Copeland brand WOF preaching. We see a lot of the rubbish on Youtube. But these don't reflect the "hard core" of the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. You will not see the "hard core" on Youtube. Most Pentecostals are decent, godly people who worship God in ways they see in the Bible. Most of my mentors in the Pentecostal church when I was in my 20s, would not have had a bar of the excessive manifestations that we see today.

The church where I fellowshiped between 1970-78 had a faithful, godly leadership that had their backgrounds in Open Brethren, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, as well as traditional Pentecostal. Therefore, their Charismatic experience was not limited to just one church or historical background. They took their experience straight from the pages of the Bible.

So the church in which the events I described was not "cultish" in any way at all. If I had described it in the context of a particular Pentecostal denomination, you might have had a case of "cultish", but not in the church I attended.

I am not inferring that you are a Pharisee by any means, but I will use the example of the Jewish Pharisees who were so entrenched in their view of who the Messiah should be, that when Jesus turned up with His miracles of healing and casting out of demons, even though they witnessed the healing, casting out of demons, and the feeding of the five thousand, they continued to adamantly refuse to believe He was their Messiah and had Him killed.

The positive aspect of the Pharisees, is that they were very strict according to what they saw in the Scriptures, but they believed that they were at the cutting edge of what God was doing in their time, and that they were right and everyone else was wrong. So, even though they saw the miracles and knew that the miracles were real, their strict teaching prevented them from believing that Jesus was who He said He was.

I don't believe that Cessationists are "wicked Pharisees" by any means, but they have been subject to strict teaching that the gifts are not for today, and even in spite of the clear testimonies to the contrary, they, like the Jewish Pharisees, cannot believe that the testimonies truly reflect that the gifts are actually for today.

This is why the early Pentecostals were accused of being demonic, and thrown out of their churches, all because they believed that the gifts, including tongues and prophecy were for today. People usually get thrown out of church because they have brought the church into disrepute because of adultery, fornication, theft, murder or something similar. The early Pentecostals were godly, faithful believers and did none of those things. They got thrown out because they believed that the gift of tongues was for them and they started to put it into practice. That was the result of strict religious teaching that made people adamant that anyone who spoke in tongues was demon possessed and needed to be ejected from their churches.

 

[tdidymas]

Is it your ministry to simply expound upon what others correctly state?

Not sure what your point is. Are you saying you knew all of that already? I don't know what you know. I just thought to stir discussion on valid points. Are we on the same page?

 

[tdidymas]

If you have been given certain teaching from your mentors in your initial formative years in the faith, or brought up with it through your childhood at church, then I can fully understand where you are coming from.

I agree that there is a lot of rubbish and misconception about the Spiritual gifts, mainly coming from churches like Bethel, Hillsong, and Kenny Copeland brand WOF preaching. We see a lot of the rubbish on Youtube. But these don't reflect the "hard core" of the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements. You will not see the "hard core" on Youtube. Most Pentecostals are decent, godly people who worship God in ways they see in the Bible. Most of my mentors in the Pentecostal church when I was in my 20s, would not have had a bar of the excessive manifestations that we see today.

The church where I fellowshiped between 1970-78 had a faithful, godly leadership that had their backgrounds in Open Brethren, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, as well as traditional Pentecostal. Therefore, their Charismatic experience was not limited to just one church or historical background. They took their experience straight from the pages of the Bible.

So the church in which the events I described was not "cultish" in any way at all. If I had described it in the context of a particular Pentecostal denomination, you might have had a case of "cultish", but not in the church I attended.

I am not inferring that you are a Pharisee by any means, but I will use the example of the Jewish Pharisees who were so entrenched in their view of who the Messiah should be, that when Jesus turned up with His miracles of healing and casting out of demons, even though they witnessed the healing, casting out of demons, and the feeding of the five thousand, they continued to adamantly refuse to believe He was their Messiah and had Him killed.

The positive aspect of the Pharisees, is that they were very strict according to what they saw in the Scriptures, but they believed that they were at the cutting edge of what God was doing in their time, and that they were right and everyone else was wrong. So, even though they saw the miracles and knew that the miracles were real, their strict teaching prevented them from believing that Jesus was who He said He was.

I don't believe that Cessationists are "wicked Pharisees" by any means, but they have been subject to strict teaching that the gifts are not for today, and even in spite of the clear testimonies to the contrary, they, like the Jewish Pharisees, cannot believe that the testimonies truly reflect that the gifts are actually for today.

This is why the early Pentecostals were accused of being demonic, and thrown out of their churches, all because they believed that the gifts, including tongues and prophecy were for today. People usually get thrown out of church because they have brought the church into disrepute because of adultery, fornication, theft, murder or something similar. The early Pentecostals were godly, faithful believers and did none of those things. They got thrown out because they believed that the gift of tongues was for them and they started to put it into practice. That was the result of strict religious teaching that made people adamant that anyone who spoke in tongues was demon possessed and needed to be ejected from their churches.

Unfortunately, testimonies of today are a dime a dozen. Unless you can meet my challenges, like I said, our paths diverge.

 

[PaulChristensen]

Not sure what your point is. Are you saying you knew all of that already? I don't know what you know. I just thought to stir discussion on valid points. Are we on the same page?

I just want to make the point that even though we are on either side of the fence, we are still brothers in Christ, and I enjoy our debates. The forum would be boring if we all agreed on everything. It is the conflict between opinions and views that makes these threads interesting and stimulating. Although there is the cut and thrust of debate here, it is all part of fellowship and with a loving attitude and respect. When I was with Christianforums.com there were two guys with whom I debated these issues for many years. They were Swordsman1 and Major1. They were avowed Cessationists and they never conceded anything in all the years I exchanged posts with them. I missed them when they were absent from a debate, and when they popped up to oppose me, I welcomed them. Now that I am no longer with that particular forum, I miss their fellowship and debates. I am never offended by those who disagree with me, and I can take it, and give it back too!

 

[tdidymas]

I just want to make the point that even though we are on either side of the fence, we are still brothers in Christ, and I enjoy our debates. The forum would be boring if we all agreed on everything. It is the conflict between opinions and views that makes these threads interesting and stimulating. Although there is the cut and thrust of debate here, it is all part of fellowship and with a loving attitude and respect. When I was with Christianforums.com there were two guys with whom I debated these issues for many years. They were Swordsman1 and Major1. They were avowed Cessationists and they never conceded anything in all the years I exchanged posts with them. I missed them when they were absent from a debate, and when they popped up to oppose me, I welcomed them. Now that I am no longer with that particular forum, I miss their fellowship and debates. I am never offended by those who disagree with me, and I can take it, and give it back too!

Actually, I was responding to Jacob. But to reiterate, testimonies of today are a dime a dozen. Unless you can meet my challenges, like I said, our paths diverge.

I am not an avowed cessationist, as I believe miracles still happen occasionally. However, you would probably call me a cessationist anyway, because I believe the signs of Messiahship and apostleship have ceased, because the foundation of Christianity has already been laid, and there is no more revelation. The way I read the NT is that the signs (the miracles that the apostles performed) which corroborated their message (Heb. 2:4) is no longer needed, because we have the NT scriptures, which is the mind of Christ and the apostles. But the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12 read like Rev. 11:6 where such power was delegated to the apostles and some others, that they could perform those signs at their discretion. Such delegation of power does not exist today. What I get from P/Cs is that they play-act at it. They keep doing it, because occasionally God decides to heal someone, because God can use anything, even play-acting if He sees fit.

But I'm sure you differ in opinion, and will label me a cessationist. But I'm not interested in merely debating opinions, because I'm after the truth, which I'm passionate about because of all the P/C hype and fraud I've seen in my first 20 years of the Christian life. I liken 90% of P/C hype to Peter's description of false teachers, in which he says they use "great swelling words." but they are "clouds without water." And I'm not just talking about the WOF camp, I'm including such denominations as UPC, AG, Apostolics, Vineyard, and miscellaneous other groups I was involved with in my 20 years of experience with them.

So do you believe that I'm after the truth, and are you willing to meet even one of my challenges?

 

[theMadJW]

There are no "gifts of the spirit" today.
And ESPECIALLY by those not knowing who God is!

 

[JLB]

View attachment 11418

There are no "gifts of the spirit" today.
And ESPECIALLY by those not knowing who God is!

There certainly is no Holy Spirit among Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

[PaulChristensen]

View attachment 11418

There are no "gifts of the spirit" today.
And ESPECIALLY by those not knowing who God is!

Just a limited snapshot of a group of people worshiping God doesn't prove anything.

 

[Serving Zion]

There certainly is no Holy Spirit among Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I have only been witness to His presence while I was in their attendance. I saw that there was more than one person who could hear His voice. I cannot assume if He is present among them when I am absent. That's just to speak of my own experience.