Under Grace not Under Law

[GodsGrace]

I believe there is a deaper issue hear that needs to be addreessed!!!!!!

These 2 doctrines are usually at front and center of this discussion!!!!
1. Babtism as the point of salvation
2. Eternal security as the point of salvation .....

I have belonged to both of these type churches that cannot go beyond these into maturity.....

These are both mentioned in Hebrews 6:1-2
As elementary doctrines that would trip up the faith of christians if they get stuck in these 2 doctrines
And do not continue to grow and mature....
Hebrews 6:3-8

I believe what many are getting trapped in is EVENT BASED SALVATION....
Our nation is freaked out over events.....
Ex.-- I just went to Disney World and to a NFL football game.....
People will wait 4-6 hours to go on new rides or all night to get. Football tickets....

God specifically warned about this when Peter got freaked out at the Mount of Transfiguration and wanted to make 3 idols to 1. Jesus. 2. MOses and 3. Elijah.....
Great event but Peter wanted to make an idol out of it!!!!!
Matthew 17:1-5

My Question is this????
1. Is salvation a 1 time EVENT......??????
Or
2. Is salvation a life long RELATIONSHIP???
as Jesus said
He who endures to the end will be saved
Matthew 24:13

What a great post!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe there is a deaper issue hear that needs to be addreessed!!!!!!

These 2 doctrines are usually at front and center of this discussion!!!!
1. Babtism as the point of salvation
2. Eternal security as the point of salvation .....

I have belonged to both of these type churches that cannot go beyond these into maturity.....

These are both mentioned in Hebrews 6:1-2
As elementary doctrines that would trip up the faith of christians if they get stuck in these 2 doctrines
And do not continue to grow and mature....
Hebrews 6:3-8

I believe what many are getting trapped in is EVENT BASED SALVATION....
Our nation is freaked out over events.....
Ex.-- I just went to Disney World and to a NFL football game.....
People will wait 4-6 hours to go on new rides or all night to get. Football tickets....

God specifically warned about this when Peter got freaked out at the Mount of Transfiguration and wanted to make 3 idols to 1. Jesus. 2. MOses and 3. Elijah.....
Great event but Peter wanted to make an idol out of it!!!!!
Matthew 17:1-5

My Question is this????
1. Is salvation a 1 time EVENT......??????
Or
2. Is salvation a life long RELATIONSHIP???
as Jesus said
He who endures to the end will be saved
Matthew 24:13

I believe the deeper issue at hand is that we live in a world of persons who are becoming more and more unwilling to accept responsibility for their actions.
2 Timothy 4:3
The time will come when persons want their ears tickled. IOW, they just want to hear what sounds good.

AND, they will accumulate for themselves teachers that accommodate what they believe, which would be their own desires.

AND, they will turn away their ears from the truth.
2 Timothy 4:4

Hear what Paul says just below this:
2 Timothy 4:7

PAUL says he has fought the good fight, he has FINISHED THE COURSE,
he has KEPT THE FAITH.

The Crown of righteousness will be awarded to him, ON THAT DAY, the day of judgement, see John 5:28-29, for all those who LOVED the appearing of Jesus.

Paul is telling us to love Jesus. To listen to Him. To follow Him.
NOT to follow Him for a week, or month, or year, but for the rest of our lives.

People who walk down an isle ONE TIME, and feel that they are saved forever no matter what they do, are sadly mistaken and should take this belief very seriously and study their bible with an open mind.

If Paul is worried about his own salvation, should we not be??
He clearly states that he must keep the faith.
2 Timothy 4:7

 

[GodsGrace]

No believer will disagree with these truths. Only those who base their salvation off their own merits. And by doing so nullifies Gods grace in salvation and makes Christ and His finished work void of any power to save. They are still under Gods law and the condemnation of it.

I vehemently object to being told that I base my salvation on my own works.
Where in this entire thread does ANYONE say this?
Please post the name of the person who quoted what you claim.

I disagree with your "truths" because they are not true.
I read number 6. Unconditional salvation.
This means, according to you, that whatever I do, no matter what it is, after becoming born again, I will STILL be saved.

Please post scripture that states this since my bible teaches me that I am to love God and behave a certain way in order to STAY SAVED.

Yes. STAY saved.
A rather scary thought, I know.
But this is what the bible teaches.

I just quoted above 2 Timothy 4:7
Paul is saying that he FINISHED the course. He has fought the FIGHT, against good and evil, He has KEPT THE FAITH.

And, BTW, our reward is HEAVEN.
Paul is referring to HEAVEN.
He sounds rather preoccupied here, I doubt he's speaking about some kind of reward he might get.

And there are too many LINKS on this thread.
This is not link-posting time.
Please supply your beliefs and support them with scripture,
not links.

Thanks.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

No believer will disagree with these truths. Only those who base their salvation off their own merits. And by doing so nullifies Gods grace in salvation and makes Christ and His finished work void of any power to save. They are still under Gods law and the condemnation of it.

Well said brother.
Conditional salvation presupposes in that teaching we have to labor to meet certain criteria in order to retain what was first, and prior to the creation of this world, God's predestined gift to the world. Delivered by his grace. That then sent himself into the world as a humble man, Emmanuel "God with us", so as to preach the new covenant news regarding that gift of grace. Which is eternal salvation and redemption from our sins forever, and eternal life after this life with the father in Heaven.
John 3:16 was a simple passage delivering that blessing. "Whosoever believeth in him, Jesus, shall not perish (in our sin) , but shall have everlasting life. Which is due to being everlastingly saved from what was the state as the unredeemed , death in our sinful state.
Praise God for his gift.
God gave it to us, preplanned it, knowing who would come to his son and by name, before he created the world we would later inhabit.
Thinking we have to labor to keep what God bestowed in that way, having written our names in the Lambs book of life then too, is works salvation. Plain and simple.

We didn't work to get God to bestow his gift of grace and write our names down before this world was created. How can it be argued we work to assure ourselves God's promise before the creation of anything here is assured? We don't. God himself said we don't.
That's pretty much all that need be said concerning the salvation gift of grace.

Now it has arrived at picking apart facets of faith. Such as, having faith is a condition.
Which is really silly in light of John 3:16. Believe and faith are synonymous.

 

[JLB]

I believe there is a deaper issue hear that needs to be addreessed!!!!!!

These 2 doctrines are usually at front and center of this discussion!!!!
1. Babtism as the point of salvation
2. Eternal security as the point of salvation .....

I have belonged to both of these type churches that cannot go beyond these into maturity.....

These are both mentioned in Hebrews 6:1-2
As elementary doctrines that would trip up the faith of christians if they get stuck in these 2 doctrines
And do not continue to grow and mature....
Hebrews 6:3-8

I believe what many are getting trapped in is EVENT BASED SALVATION....
Our nation is freaked out over events.....
Ex.-- I just went to Disney World and to a NFL football game.....
People will wait 4-6 hours to go on new rides or all night to get. Football tickets....

God specifically warned about this when Peter got freaked out at the Mount of Transfiguration and wanted to make 3 idols to 1. Jesus. 2. MOses and 3. Elijah.....
Great event but Peter wanted to make an idol out of it!!!!!
Matthew 17:1-5

My Question is this????
1. Is salvation a 1 time EVENT......??????
Or
2. Is salvation a life long RELATIONSHIP???
as Jesus said
He who endures to the end will be saved
Matthew 24:13

Jesus Christ is eternal life.

He is the way the truth and the life.
He is the resurrection and the life.

Those who have the Son have life.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I vehemently object to being told that I base my salvation on my own works.
Where in this entire thread does ANYONE say this?
Please post the name of the person who quoted what you claim.

I disagree with your "truths" because they are not true.
I read number 6. Unconditional salvation.
This means, according to you, that whatever I do, no matter what it is, after becoming born again, I will STILL be saved.

Please post scripture that states this since my bible teaches me that I am to love God and behave a certain way in order to STAY SAVED.

Yes. STAY saved.
A rather scary thought, I know.
But this is what the bible teaches.

I just quoted above 2 Timothy 4:7
Paul is saying that he FINISHED the course. He has fought the FIGHT, against good and evil, He has KEPT THE FAITH.

And, BTW, our reward is HEAVEN.
Paul is referring to HEAVEN.
He sounds rather preoccupied here, I doubt he's speaking about some kind of reward he might get.

And there are too many LINKS on this thread.
This is not link-posting time.
Please supply your beliefs and support them with scripture,
not links.

Thanks.

He can't name anyone who claims this because no one has stated it.

He knows his position is unbiblical so he must resort to attacking you and making up lies about you.

You are blessed woman of God.

People who have closed their eyes and ears to the truth, just simply do not want to know the truth, which is the only thing that can set them free from deception.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Well said brother.
Conditional salvation presupposes in that teaching we have to labor to meet certain criteria in order to retain what was first, and prior to the creation of this world, God's predestined gift to the world. Delivered by his grace. That then sent himself into the world as a humble man, Emmanuel "God with us", so as to preach the new covenant news regarding that gift of grace. Which is eternal salvation and redemption from our sins forever, and eternal life after this life with the father in Heaven.
John 3:16 was a simple passage delivering that blessing. "Whosoever believeth in him, Jesus, shall not perish (in our sin) , but shall have everlasting life. Which is due to being everlastingly saved from what was the state as the unredeemed , death in our sinful state.
Praise God for his gift.
God gave it to us, preplanned it, knowing who would come to his son and by name, before he created the world we would later inhabit.
Thinking we have to labor to keep what God bestowed in that way, having written our names in the Lambs book of life then too, is works salvation. Plain and simple.

We didn't work to get God to bestow his gift of grace and write our names down before this world was created. How can it be argued we work to assure ourselves God's promise before the creation of anything here is assured? We don't. God himself said we don't.
That's pretty much all that need be said concerning the salvation gift of grace.

Now it has arrived at picking apart facets of faith. Such as, having faith is a condition.
Which is really silly in light of John 3:16. Believe and faith are synonymous.

I'm still waiting for you to present the scripture that validates your theory that salvation is unconditional, requiring no action on the part of the one who is desiring to be saved, whether believing the Gospel, obeying the Gospel or calling upon the name of the Lord, which are required by the scriptures.

You have already been warned by the mods that unconditional salvation is the same as universal salvation which is heresy


Please shows us the scriptures that say their is no condition required to be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

This scripture shows that whosoever believes shall have everlasting life.

Whosoever is not the elect.
Believes is the requirement.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Well said brother.
Conditional salvation presupposes in that teaching we have to labor to meet certain criteria in order to retain what was first, and prior to the creation of this world, God's predestined gift to the world. Delivered by his grace. That then sent himself into the world as a humble man, Emmanuel "God with us", so as to preach the new covenant news regarding that gift of grace. Which is eternal salvation and redemption from our sins forever, and eternal life after this life with the father in Heaven.
John 3:16 was a simple passage delivering that blessing. "Whosoever believeth in him, Jesus, shall not perish (in our sin) , but shall have everlasting life. Which is due to being everlastingly saved from what was the state as the unredeemed , death in our sinful state.
Praise God for his gift.
God gave it to us, preplanned it, knowing who would come to his son and by name, before he created the world we would later inhabit.
Thinking we have to labor to keep what God bestowed in that way, having written our names in the Lambs book of life then too, is works salvation. Plain and simple.

We didn't work to get God to bestow his gift of grace and write our names down before this world was created. How can it be argued we work to assure ourselves God's promise before the creation of anything here is assured? We don't. God himself said we don't.
That's pretty much all that need be said concerning the salvation gift of grace.

Now it has arrived at picking apart facets of faith. Such as, having faith is a condition.
Which is really silly in light of John 3:16. Believe and faith are synonymous.

What exactly did Jesus preach?
Was it how to be saved?
Please post 5 verses where Jesus speaks about being saved directly.
You will not find them. Because they don't exist.
Jesus' main objective was to teach us that we are to be born from above - or born again -
and then He spends the rest of His ministry showing us and telling us HOW to be born from above. And how to live peacefully in His Kingdom right here on earth.
Could you post 5 verses about the Kingdom here on earth?
I can assure you that you will be able to because they exist because this is what He spoke of more than anything else.

You added words to John 3:16.
I do hope you know Revelation 22:18
It specifically refers to Revelation, but the same can be said of ANY book in the O.T. or N.T.
Nothing is to be added or subtracted from the written Word of God.

John 3:16
New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved THE WORLD (that means everyone)
That He gave His only begotten Son, (He gave Him to the world)
That WHOEVER BELIEVES in Him (Whoever, not just some. Believes - please not the present tense)
Shall not perish ( perish does NOT have anything to do with sin, as you've stated, perish means destroyed, killed, lost, no longer existing)
But have eternal life.

or

Anyone who believes in Jesus at the end of their life
Anyone in the entire world
will not be destroyed
but will have life everlasting.

 

[GodsGrace]

Five? Why would I post five when 20 pages of proof have been ignored by that which holds to what is commonly called, "try harder salvation"?
2 Timothy 1: 9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Excuse me.
I said to please post 5 verses where JESUS is speaking about being born again.

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Five? Why would I post five when 20 pages of proof have been ignored by that which holds to what is commonly called, "try harder salvation"?
2 Timothy 1: 9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

P.S.
If Jesus has called us to a holy life, as you yourself state above,
and we DO NOT LIVE a holy life...

Are we still saved?

 

[Papyrus_dust]

P.S.
If Jesus has called us to a holy life, as you yourself state above,
and we DO NOT LIVE a holy life...

Are we still saved?

I wish you all the best in your Arminian theology.

 

[ezra]

I'm still waiting for you to present the scripture that validates your theory that salvation is unconditional, requiring no action on the part of the one who is desiring to be saved, whether believing the Gospel, obeying the Gospel or calling upon the name of the Lord, which are required by the scriptures.

you just added to the plan of salvation the conditions of salvation has been paid in advance on the cross it is finished ---
"tetelestai."

It is the perfect indicative mood of the Greek verb "teleō," which means "to bring to an end" or "to complete." he paid the price we cant even begin to comprehend how sinners can be changed born again born of the spirit and water certainly we must believe you keep wanting to add more things to the plan of salvation --which can be considered works but yes salvation of it self is unconditional For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- Romans 5 Paul called it the free gift . do we need faith ? yes we do God has given us that 3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measureof faith God has given you. do i fully understand how all this works? not really kind of like the song john 3:16 little boy lost needed place to say he was told go to a place and say john 3:16 he was fed bathed warm place to say. he would say john 3';16 sure dont understand it but it works...Grace the unmerited favor of God unearned undeserved we cant buy it bargain for it.. i tried that before i got saved..tried to be a better person on my own . yes there are requirements for us after saved walk in the light confess our sins repent .justification declared not guilty by faith.. the above make salvation the gift unconditional

 

[MCoop]

I vehemently object to being told that I base my salvation on my own works.
Where in this entire thread does ANYONE say this?
Please post the name of the person who quoted what you claim.

I disagree with your "truths" because they are not true.
I read number 6. Unconditional salvation.
This means, according to you, that whatever I do, no matter what it is, after becoming born again, I will STILL be saved.

Please post scripture that states this since my bible teaches me that I am to love God and behave a certain way in order to STAY SAVED.

Yes. STAY saved.
A rather scary thought, I know.
But this is what the bible teaches.

I just quoted above 2 Timothy 4:7
Paul is saying that he FINISHED the course. He has fought the FIGHT, against good and evil, He has KEPT THE FAITH.

And, BTW, our reward is HEAVEN.
Paul is referring to HEAVEN.
He sounds rather preoccupied here, I doubt he's speaking about some kind of reward he might get.

And there are too many LINKS on this thread.
This is not link-posting time.
Please supply your beliefs and support them with scripture,
not links.

Thanks.

Why object to it? You just said in this post that “we” have to behave a certain way in order to stay saved. So really you are saying our works justifies us in the end. If one believes he can lose his salvation, then that person bases his salvation on his works. Very simple to understand. Anyone who believes salvation is attained and maintained by works, bases their salvation on their works. And by doing so shows, that there is no belief in Christ and His merits alone to save and give eternal life apart from a believers works. Sounds a lot like Judaizers

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Excuse me.
I said to please post 5 verses where JESUS is speaking about being born again.

Thanks.

Yes, I read that. You're most welcome. You may wish to start at any point in these 20 pages and find far more than what you're looking for. For my part, I had to take a moment to realize I was being asked, "Please post 5 verses where Jesus speaks about being saved directly." Being it appears the synoptic Gospels are unknown to you.
Then to read this declaration after the plea, "You will not find them. Because they don't exist."
Is rather shocking.

 

[MCoop]

I see. So your theology is rooted in Calvinism.

God does not choose who will be in Him or who will not be in Him, as that violates mans freewill to choose.

He foresaw who would choose to believe, and He chose them before the foundation of the world.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

God through His foreknowledge saw down through the ages who would choose Christ, and He chose them to be predestined as sons.

God did not choose any tares, to be in Him as a tare is described as sons of the wicked one.

The predestined ones are among those who are sons of the kingdom.

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
Matthew 13:37-38

• the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom

It is up to the sons of the kingdom to choose to believe as well as choose to remain in Him.

But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:12

Like I explained in the other thread, showing that Matthew 25:31-46 is about the sons of the kingdom who are being judged according to their deeds on the Day of Judgement. These are all His people, His citizens who are standing before the Judgement Seat of Christ, as Jesus had taught so plainly to His disciples in the parables starting in Matthew 24:45.

His servants will be given responsibility to be productive or fruitful with what He gives them to do, and each will be judged according to their deeds.

This principle has its foundation in the Sower and the seed.

Once we understand this parable we will understand this principle in all the parables.

John 15:1-6 teaches the same thing.

Unfruitful sons of the kingdom will not inherit the kingdom of God, though they were destined to, because they produced no fruit, because their deeds were evil, choosing rather to live according to the flesh.

• the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness.

Jesus said it this way -

But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:21


JLB

And your theology is rooted in pelagianism. Or should I say the smokescreen of pelagianism, Arminianism. This is why the focus is always man centered and works oriented

 

[ezra]

P.S.
If Jesus has called us to a holy life, as you yourself state above,
and we DO NOT LIVE a holy life...

Are we still saved?

ya know the answer would depend on who you asked . we want to be Holy and live a holy life .i think our definition of holy living w/o sin in our life.. our flesh gets in the way.. imo when i think of Holy i think of living a pure life..

 

[ezra]

And your theology is rooted in pelagianism. Or should I say the smokescreen of pelagianism, Arminianism. This is why the focus is always man centered and works oriented

aww love the attacks.. the Big problem we have is one religion is greater than the other

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Why object to it? You just said in this post that “we” have to behave a certain way in order to stay saved. So really you are saying our works justifies us in the end. If one believes he can lose his salvation, then that person bases his salvation on his works. Very simple to understand. Anyone who believes salvation is attained and maintained by works, bases their salvation on their works. And by doing so shows, that there is no belief in Christ and His merits alone to save and give eternal life apart from a believers works. Sounds a lot like Judaizers

You shall never convince those who feel the need to work for a gift that they may live in faith and peace instead.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

aww love the attacks.. the Big problem we have is one religion is greater than the other

Actually, truth isn't an attack. In a thread concerning salvation, one participant in this thread has said they are Arminian. Arminian theology is works based.

 

[MCoop]

I'm still waiting for you to present the scripture that validates your theory that salvation is unconditional, requiring no action on the part of the one who is desiring to be saved, whether believing the Gospel, obeying the Gospel or calling upon the name of the Lord, which are required by the scriptures.

You have already been warned by the mods that unconditional salvation is the same as universal salvation which is heresy


Please shows us the scriptures that say their is no condition required to be saved.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

This scripture shows that whosoever believes shall have everlasting life.

Whosoever is not the elect.
Believes is the requirement.



JLB

The mods ok lol! Salvation is unconditional. What is the grace that saves? Unconditional election is in essence Gods grace that saves. The elect alone, by Gods grace and decree, come to Christ in faith. Why are we going in circles with the same silly questions?