Under Grace not Under Law

[billybalke]

How can a person who is in Christ, be considered as "unsaved"?


JLB

Proof #6
The Bible gives examples of sinners
saved without any conditions.


Since God saves sinners unconditionally by His own sovereign wisdom and power in Jesus Christ, and the gospel and its ordinances are only for the education and comfort of the elect, then there should be examples of such cases in the Bible. And there are many. The previous proofs and the following examples solve the perpetual questions men have had about infants, idiots, and the heathen. Salvation is by God's grace alone, and it can easily reach every class of man in every situation. The examples to follow cover every man and thus are comforts for our souls.
We have already shown in the previous five proofs that God's elect are saved fully and infallibly without conditions. But let us add to these proofs with specific examples of such from the Bible.

What about John the Baptist? He leaped for joy in his mother's womb at the presence of Jesus, and he did so by the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:15, 44). Joy is a fruit of the Spirit and an evidence of eternal life, so we know John was saved before he was born (Gal 5:22; Rom 8:14-15; I Pet 1:8).

What about Cornelius? He feared God, which no unsaved man does (Rom 3:18); and he gave alms and prayed acceptably to God (Acts 10:1-4). And this was true before hearing the gospel or being baptized. Peter revealed by the Spirit he was already accepted with God (Acts 10:34-35).

What about Lot? He loved Sodom more than righteousness, and he ended up incestuously with his daughters in a cave (Gen 13:12; Gen 19:14, 16, 20, 36). Yet we are taught by the Spirit Lot was a just and righteous man, saved by the glorious grace of God by Christ's obedience (II Pet 2:7-9).

What about the rich young ruler? Though he chose his riches over Christ, Jesus loved him; and he went away sorrowful - two marks of a man with eternal life (Mark 10:17-27). Jesus hates the wicked (Ps 5:5; Matt 7:23); and only spiritual men desire to follow Christ. Riches are a strong obstacle to obedience; but salvation by an omnipotent God is easy even in such cases.

What about Israel in the wilderness? They ate and drank spiritually of Jesus Christ, which is to have eternal life (I Cor 10:1-4); but they were disobedient and rebellious (I Cor 10:5). Yet God chose them, chastened them, called them children, and loved them (Deu 7:6-8; 8:5; 14:1; 33:1-3).

What about blinded Israel? Paul declares that a portion of elect Israel was blinded to the gospel, so that though they were enemies of the gospel, they were beloved in election (Rom 11:25-32).

What about infants? There is no doctrine of salvation on earth that consistently and Scripturally provides for infants, except the truth of unconditional salvation. Since eternal life is entirely by God's grace in Jesus Christ, dying elect infants are saved the same way as all other sinners.



Proof #7
Unconditional salvation is the only
doctrine giving God all the glory.


Eternal life entirely by grace without human conditions gives God an infinite and undivided measure of glory. Any conditional system of salvation, even those requiring only faith, make man the determiner of his own destiny - and thus his own saviour. But there will be no sharing of glory in heaven, for Jesus Christ will receive it all. The wicked are not in hell, because they failed to do what the righteous did, but rather because Jesus Christ did not do for them what He did for the righteous. Salvation is of the Lord, and this fact cannot be modified or compromised.
If a mere offer requires conditions, then it is a reward and not a free gift; then the Giver is in debt to the one meeting the conditions (Rom 4:4); then it is of works rather than grace (Rom 11:6); then the Giver is robbed of glory by the one performing (I Cor 1:26-31). Only by eliminating all conditions does God get all the glory (Eph 2:9; Rom 11:33-36; I Cor 4:7; Titus 3:4-7).

The true God is Jealous, and He will not share His glory (Ex 34:14; Is 42:8). He has so designed salvation to give Himself all the glory (I Cor 1:26-31; Rom 2:29; 9:23; Eph 2:7).

God created all things - even the wicked for the day of evil - for Himself and His own pleasure (Prov 16:4; Rev 4:11). He did not create us for our pleasure, and then helped us out of our sins. He was not surprised by sin in Eden at all, for it was all part of His purpose to glorify Himself.

Salvation is not remedial to deliver damned sinners God pitied, but rather revelatory of His glorious nature by the judgment of the wicked and the deliverance of the elect (Rom 9:14-24). He chose to display His wrath and power in the one category and His glorious riches in the other.

Many talk and sing about salvation by grace, but only unconditional eternal life is truly gracious; for if we add conditions to His grace, then sinners choose their own salvation. The difference between heaven and hell is not man's choice at all, but God's (I Thess 1:2-4; II Thess 2:13).

God based salvation on His own will in predestination for His own glory (Eph 1:5-6, 11-12). He has mercy on whom He chooses, without regard for man's will or efforts (Rom 9:15-16).

If God wanted all men saved and sent Jesus to die for them, based on their compliance, then two things are true - He is the most frustrated Being and His work effectively accomplished nothing.

Jesus victoriously saved His people from their sins without losing one (Matt 1:21; John 6:39), and the elect know He saved them exclusively by Himself (Rev 5:1-14; Heb 2:13; Rev 6:10).

There is only one soul winner in heaven - Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Praise ye the Lord.

I find no way one arrives into Christ except by being baptized into Christ, Gal.3:26,27

 

[JohnDB]

Ephesians 2

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Unconditional Salvation is not corrupted by the false unsustainable label of Universalism.

So that no reader is confused: "With verses such as these, it becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. " "Is universalism / universal salvation biblical?" ( My posting:No!)

There are only two ways of eternal life - God's way or Satan's counterfeit. Either God gives eternal life as a free and unconditional gift, or man must perform conditions of faith or works to obtain it.
If man must do anything, then God's grace is ruined, man becomes his own saviour, religious financing determines eternal destiny, and Satan has robbed Jesus Christ of His glory!

*Pasted the conclusion first so as to arrive at a preface for the context of the truth being taught here. That unconditional Salvatoin is the Good News. And it is not Universalism. If Universalists wish to conflate Unconditional Salvation with their heresy that is not God's word. That is fallen man's doing.
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/sermons/salvation/unconditional-salvation/sermon.php [The site includes a player wherein one can listen to this sermon rather than read] These passages are pasted here to bring any reader who is seeking Christ and happens on this thread to the truth of God's gift of Salvation through his grace. You are not saved without faith. John 3:16. May God lead those who's hearts are open to the cross. Amen.

Conclusion


How are we saved? By the grace of God through Jesus Christ - no ifs, ands, or buts! By Himself He saved His elect from the eternal judgment they deserve and for His own glory and praise! Not a single one will be lost! His purposes will be fully accomplished! Sinners do not add to His finished work nor activate its blessings! He is more than worthy of your best esteem!
Gospel preaching brings the good news of this gracious salvation. It cannot make elect out of reprobates, sheep out of goats, or spiritual men out of natural men; but it can teach, comfort, exhort, and warn the elect to live godly lives in this world, while we wait for Jesus from heaven.

We believe the gospel for the knowledge and comfort of eternal life it gives us (Acts 13:48; II Tim 1:10; I John 5:13). It describes God's wisdom and power in saving us by Jesus Christ (I Cor 1:18, 22-24), and it tells us what to do to please Him while living here (I Thess 4:1). The Bible was written to saints, and preaching should be done to them also (Acts 13:26; II Thess 3:1-2).

Believing the gospel is only an evidence of eternal life, not a condition for it. Verses speaking of faith in Christ are evidentiary facts, not impossible conditions required of dead sinners to save themselves. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are simply emblems to remind us of Jesus Christ.

There is a salvation in the gospel - but it is only a salvation to truth and comfort in this life - it is not a condition, prerequisite, or instrument for obtaining eternal life. We realize a salvation of comfort and hope by remembering the resurrection (I Cor 15:2, 19); ministers obtain salvation in godliness and truth by taking heed to themselves and the doctrine (I Tim 4:16); and we can all save each other from ungodly living by converting one another back to the truth (Jas 5:19-20).

The whole religious world stands against the truth of unconditional eternal life, for Satan has his Jesus preached by his gospel through his spirit everywhere (II Cor 11:3-4). Where do you stand?

The Jesus of God - Jehovah in the flesh - has by Himself fully saved His elect without the loss of one, and without conditions or requirements of any kind or description. Do you love Him?

Does unconditional eternal life create any motive for holy living? It creates the most! For only constant holy living proves you are God's elect. Rome's sacramentalism and "faith only" allow any lifestyle, as long as you were sprinkled or made a one-time, emotional decision for Jesus.

If you saw in this study God's wisdom and power in saving us by Jesus Christ, then you are saved and in possession of eternal life (I Cor 1:24; John 3:3; 17:2-3; I John 5:20).

If you wish to make your calling and election to eternal life sure, then there are things you should bear in your life as the evidence (II Peter 1:5-10; I Tim 6:17-19; Matt 7:21).

If you are thankful for God's gracious salvation, then you should answer Him with your good conscience in water baptism (I Peter 3:21; Acts 2:37-38; 8:35-39).

If you are already baptized, you need to worship Him in spirit and truth (John 4:24; Gal 1:8-9).

Let us humble ourselves before the living God, beg for His mercy, put our trust only in the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, obey the gospel fully until He returns, and praise His glorious name!

So what you are proposing is that "unconditional salvation" doesn't mean what Webster's dictionary takes it to mean which is synonymous with Universalism...

That you agree that the condition of the heart condition of repentance is a prerequisite as well as Faith in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

IOW you don't mean what you are saying with unconditional salvation. You mean no works (physical religious acts) are required for salvation.

 

[ezra]

There are many mothers in the Lord and Fathers too.
No, God is not the author of confusion. But turn on the TV and you'll witness any number of very very rich materialist wannabe's, claim-to-be fathers and mothers, who corrupt the word for their own personal gain. And I believe it is because they want to lead people away from the cross. And get rich doing it.

As to this site being an avenue for the lost, I disagree with your observation. The statement of faith in this forum is very clear. And has been shared in this thread. Because if it can be a gift to Twitter people, it can certainly be a gift to those whom you refer. A lost person.

Most people when looking to join a forum or even lurk, read the terms of service. And if it is a religious site, the statement of faith. If they're lost and seeking, they want to find out if there is a flicker of answer to what it is that draws them to seek. And that is why religious sites post their statement of faith. Not the only reason of course. But with regard to the great commission , one of the reasons for a Christian forum to do so.
The back and forth in a forum, such as here, is no less than what is debated in churches, on the streets, and absolutely with regard to Judaism, in the Temple.
We as the saints in Christ learn from such things among our sisters and brothers. And in that learning, that testing of the spirits, John 1, we can be better prepared to witness to the unbeliever, the lost. And those who may be that and challenge us to prove we know what we are talking about when we say we are Christian. Or, are In Christ. It's a blessing. Not a factor that should make the lost run away.

IF they run toward Christ they're already afraid of the world. Christ takes that fear away. If they want to know Jesus they should face everything that scares them in their search to find him. Because the world in its conflict is just like the ideology that exists in the world of the faithful. Otherwise, there would be one denomination. And one version of the Bible.

sorry but i disagree with parts you can mark your saved all you want... there is nothing wrong with the statement of faith.. yes t.v is full of get rich preaching . this has nothing to do with the confusion osas osnas conditional unconditional limited unlimited atonement.. to each there own . i talked to a man today asked him straight up if God called him out of this world where would he go. he had stop and think never gave a clear answer . the man had no clue { The back and forth in a forum, such as here, is no less than what is debated in churches,} we wonder why we have so many different type Churches each has a difference in teaching

 

[ezra]

So what you are proposing is that "unconditional salvation" doesn't mean what Webster's dictionary takes it to mean which is synonymous with Universalism...

That you agree that the condition of the heart condition of repentance is a prerequisite as well as Faith in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

IOW you don't mean what you are saying with unconditional salvation. You mean no works (physical religious acts) are required for salvation.

the condition of the heart has a part in it but God gives us a heart to know him ..so the conditions are in place ahead of time all through the Holy Spirit which quickens brings us to life..

 

[MCoop]

Proof #6
The Bible gives examples of sinners
saved without any conditions.


Since God saves sinners unconditionally by His own sovereign wisdom and power in Jesus Christ, and the gospel and its ordinances are only for the education and comfort of the elect, then there should be examples of such cases in the Bible. And there are many. The previous proofs and the following examples solve the perpetual questions men have had about infants, idiots, and the heathen. Salvation is by God's grace alone, and it can easily reach every class of man in every situation. The examples to follow cover every man and thus are comforts for our souls.
We have already shown in the previous five proofs that God's elect are saved fully and infallibly without conditions. But let us add to these proofs with specific examples of such from the Bible.

What about John the Baptist? He leaped for joy in his mother's womb at the presence of Jesus, and he did so by the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:15, 44). Joy is a fruit of the Spirit and an evidence of eternal life, so we know John was saved before he was born (Gal 5:22; Rom 8:14-15; I Pet 1:8).

What about Cornelius? He feared God, which no unsaved man does (Rom 3:18); and he gave alms and prayed acceptably to God (Acts 10:1-4). And this was true before hearing the gospel or being baptized. Peter revealed by the Spirit he was already accepted with God (Acts 10:34-35).

What about Lot? He loved Sodom more than righteousness, and he ended up incestuously with his daughters in a cave (Gen 13:12; Gen 19:14, 16, 20, 36). Yet we are taught by the Spirit Lot was a just and righteous man, saved by the glorious grace of God by Christ's obedience (II Pet 2:7-9).

What about the rich young ruler? Though he chose his riches over Christ, Jesus loved him; and he went away sorrowful - two marks of a man with eternal life (Mark 10:17-27). Jesus hates the wicked (Ps 5:5; Matt 7:23); and only spiritual men desire to follow Christ. Riches are a strong obstacle to obedience; but salvation by an omnipotent God is easy even in such cases.

What about Israel in the wilderness? They ate and drank spiritually of Jesus Christ, which is to have eternal life (I Cor 10:1-4); but they were disobedient and rebellious (I Cor 10:5). Yet God chose them, chastened them, called them children, and loved them (Deu 7:6-8; 8:5; 14:1; 33:1-3).

What about blinded Israel? Paul declares that a portion of elect Israel was blinded to the gospel, so that though they were enemies of the gospel, they were beloved in election (Rom 11:25-32).

What about infants? There is no doctrine of salvation on earth that consistently and Scripturally provides for infants, except the truth of unconditional salvation. Since eternal life is entirely by God's grace in Jesus Christ, dying elect infants are saved the same way as all other sinners.



Proof #7
Unconditional salvation is the only
doctrine giving God all the glory.


Eternal life entirely by grace without human conditions gives God an infinite and undivided measure of glory. Any conditional system of salvation, even those requiring only faith, make man the determiner of his own destiny - and thus his own saviour. But there will be no sharing of glory in heaven, for Jesus Christ will receive it all. The wicked are not in hell, because they failed to do what the righteous did, but rather because Jesus Christ did not do for them what He did for the righteous. Salvation is of the Lord, and this fact cannot be modified or compromised.
If a mere offer requires conditions, then it is a reward and not a free gift; then the Giver is in debt to the one meeting the conditions (Rom 4:4); then it is of works rather than grace (Rom 11:6); then the Giver is robbed of glory by the one performing (I Cor 1:26-31). Only by eliminating all conditions does God get all the glory (Eph 2:9; Rom 11:33-36; I Cor 4:7; Titus 3:4-7).

The true God is Jealous, and He will not share His glory (Ex 34:14; Is 42:8). He has so designed salvation to give Himself all the glory (I Cor 1:26-31; Rom 2:29; 9:23; Eph 2:7).

God created all things - even the wicked for the day of evil - for Himself and His own pleasure (Prov 16:4; Rev 4:11). He did not create us for our pleasure, and then helped us out of our sins. He was not surprised by sin in Eden at all, for it was all part of His purpose to glorify Himself.

Salvation is not remedial to deliver damned sinners God pitied, but rather revelatory of His glorious nature by the judgment of the wicked and the deliverance of the elect (Rom 9:14-24). He chose to display His wrath and power in the one category and His glorious riches in the other.

Many talk and sing about salvation by grace, but only unconditional eternal life is truly gracious; for if we add conditions to His grace, then sinners choose their own salvation. The difference between heaven and hell is not man's choice at all, but God's (I Thess 1:2-4; II Thess 2:13).

God based salvation on His own will in predestination for His own glory (Eph 1:5-6, 11-12). He has mercy on whom He chooses, without regard for man's will or efforts (Rom 9:15-16).

If God wanted all men saved and sent Jesus to die for them, based on their compliance, then two things are true - He is the most frustrated Being and His work effectively accomplished nothing.

Jesus victoriously saved His people from their sins without losing one (Matt 1:21; John 6:39), and the elect know He saved them exclusively by Himself (Rev 5:1-14; Heb 2:13; Rev 6:10).

There is only one soul winner in heaven - Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Praise ye the Lord.

No believer will disagree with these truths. Only those who base their salvation off their own merits. And by doing so nullifies Gods grace in salvation and makes Christ and His finished work void of any power to save. They are still under Gods law and the condemnation of it.

 

[MCoop]

No.

Unconditional election is the "U" in TULIP of Calvinism.... Meaning that you did nothing to gain favor by God for him to select you for salvation.

Unconditional salvation is synonymous with Universalism which is not allowed on this forum. Universalism is where everyone is saved whether they repent of sin or not.

Unconditional election is the grace of God that saves in Christ. Romans 9. Salvation is unconditional. Gods choice of saving His elect is according to His will and purpose. Not any condition He foresees or any condition a sinner meets in some way. Universalism is just as false as conditional Salvationist. So regardless of the opinion you’ve just stated, unconditional election results in unconditional salvation

 

[ezra]

"unconditional salvation" doesn't mean what Webster's dictionary takes it to mean which is synonymous with Universalism...

i want to clear the air on MY PART when i say unconditional it does not mean Universalism .that is not Bible all conditions has been met prepaid when God call we either accept or reject no negotiation

 

[JohnDB]

When there is no basis for understanding using even the Webster's dictionary....

No discussion can continue.

This thread is closed until the English language can be utilized and cooler heads prevail.

 

[JLB]

There is no fence in my theology.Nor in my relationship with God. My relationship espouses humbling myself to Christ. I am not in Christ. The holy spirit indwells me.
And every believer who is In Christ.
James 4, 1 Peter 5, 1 Corinthians 3:16

Excellent Confession of faith.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Does anyone posting here believe we do works for Salvation... ?

No.

 

[JLB]

Scripture please to support your proclamation.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

The condition for salvation, or everlasting life is to believe.


Now if you would, post the scripture that says those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving are still saved.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13




JLB

 

[JLB]

I think it would benefit our discussion greatly if you would encapsulate James dissertation as you understand it. Blessings and thank you in advance.

James teaches us the Law of Faith, and How Faith Works -


20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. “And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:20-26


· Principle: faith without works is dead?


Principle Keys -

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

• You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

• For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The principle ingredient within the law of faith, that governs whether it is alive and active, able to produce the intended divine result, or lifeless and inactive, and unable to function as a body that is dead, without a spirit, is obedience. [Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27]


Faith must have the corresponding act of obedience, in order to produce the divine result, and in the case of Abraham, the divine result was justification: Declared to be right with God.

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

The work or action that Abraham did was to obey what God had said, which was go and offer your son on the altar to me.




Examples of Faith: The obedience of faith


By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


Again we see that Abraham was justified by his act of obedience, in response to God’s word.


8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Galatians 3:8



“By Faith” means we hear God’s voice [word; rhema], in which we now have faith from God and when we act in obedience to do what he tells us to do, our faith produces the divine result, whether justification, healing, the forgiveness of sins, strength, divine prosperity or even the saving of our household.



By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7



Paul calls it the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


When He had stopped speaking, He said to Simon, “Launch out into the deep and let down your nets for a catch. “But Simon answered and said to Him, “Master, we have toiled all night and caught nothing; nevertheless at Your word I will let down the net.” And when they had done this, they caught a great number of fish, and their net was breaking. Luke 5:5-6


If Peter would have stayed on shore, and not acted in faith, no divine result would have taken place.


20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.Matthew 9:20-22


This woman acted on her faith, and pressed through the crowds to touch the hem of His garment.


Without this corresponding action of moving forward to touch the hem of His garment, her faith would have remained inactive [dead] as a body without the spirit is dead, and produces no divine result.


The divine result of faith, for what ever God speaks to us is always blessing.


Many are robbed of God’s best for our lives, by not understanding how this principle of faith works.


For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6


Faith must work, or express itself, through the action of obedience for faith to produce the divine result of healing, salvation, provision and blessing, which is God’s love being poured out through our lives, for our benefit.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26



JLB

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Excellent Confession of faith.



JLB

I would agree if my remarks were worded properly. I don't remember typing, I am not in Christ. I'll edit that here since the edit option window has closed on that post.

There is no fence in my theology.Nor in my relationship with God. My relationship espouses humbling myself to Christ. I am in Christ. The holy spirit indwells me.
And every believer who is In Christ.
James 4, 1 Peter 5, 1 Corinthians 3:16

Thank you.

 

[JLB]

I don't remember typing, I am not in Christ.

Honestly I didn't even notice that.

I know you are in Christ, and my comment was sincere.


JLB

 

[Papyrus_dust]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

The condition for salvation, or everlasting life is to believe.


Now if you would, post the scripture that says those who believe for a while, then return to unbelieving are still saved.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13




JLB

The prerequisite of faith in any religious philosophy or doctrine would be belief. That should go without saying. As to the rest of your observation, those points have been discussed and repeated after the counter argument to unconditional salvation was rejected or sought to be put aright in that it is not in any way conflated with Universalism.

Unconditional Salvation is not defined in Websters. Universalism is.

: a theological doctrine that all human beings will eventually be saved: the principles and practices of a liberal Christian denomination founded in the 18th century originally to uphold belief in universal salvation and now united with Unitarianism
: something that is universal in scope
3: the state of being universal : universality

That in no wise describes the eternal salvation immortal life gift of grace that this Christian believe in.

I understand this thread was reopened after a short closure due to a comment about dictionary terms.

However, I believe what is crossing wires here to make a chaotic combative atmosphere as far as individuals personal theological understanding and accord is that when reading the words, unconditional salvation, those familiar with the tenets of Universalism link those two words with Unitarianism//Universalism, and what is also known as, thanks in part to pastors book by the same name, The Gospel of Inclusion. (2) The gospel of inclusion teaches that salvation is unconditional and does not even require faith in Jesus Christ as the payment for mankind’s sin debt.

And that is why some think then that when I am referring to unconditional salvation not only is that what people are thinking in terms of, but they're also thinking it then gives a license to sin freely fearing no consequence. And rightly so when reading that article that describes the gospel of inclusion.

Not only is the doctrine of GoI ridiculous, it is not at all, due to the resources I've linked and the scripture passages I've shared for clarity and reflective of the information in the resources and scriptures I've posted concerning what is meant in my remarks about unconditional salvation, which is eternal security in Christ.

Excerpt/ A Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Christ would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation is the gift of God, and God’s gifts are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). A Christian cannot be un-newly created. The redeemed cannot be unpurchased. Eternal life cannot be temporary. God cannot renege on His Word. Scripture says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).
Can a Christian lose salvation?


Eternal security - is it biblical?
"The most powerful argument for eternal security is Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit."

God chose those whom he would to be in his grace before the foundation of the world. We don't work to keep that free gift. And there are no conditions to keep ourselves in God's grace because we had not a thing to do with arriving there. It was all predestined by God himself. He's in control. Imparting we can leave the faith and wrest that control under the dominion of our will is not Biblical. Not only that, it flies in the face of what God said when he said his gifts are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


I would prefer if this thread is going to go nowhere but back the way it came so as to circle with the same questions yet again, that it be closed permanently.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Honestly I didn't even notice that.

I know you are in Christ, and my comment was sincere.


JLB

I was shocked when I read that in the quote you posted. That's why I wanted to clear it up in my response first thing.
And thank you for your support. I do know you were sincere in your comment brother. God is good all the time.

 

[Jim Parker]

:God saves men while they are dead in sins, not while they are willing or working (Rom 5:6-10; Eph 2:1- 5)

Actual text (NKJV)
Ro 5:6-10 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Actual text (NKJV)
Eph 2:1-7 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Yes, of course God saves us when we are dead in out sins. If we were not dead in our sins then we wouldn't need saving. Right? Of course right!
And being dead in our sins, it was our habit to follow the ways of the world. An openness to being willing to repent to work to be saved would probably not be very interesting to anyone in that condition.

Only God's will is active in the giving of eternal life (Jn 3:8)

Actual text (NKJV)
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
Are you sure you have the right scripture citation? That verse, and the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus from which it is taken, doesn't say anything about God's will in giving eternal life.
And, of course, since only God can give eternal life, it is only by His will that it is given and, since giving is an act, His will must be "active."

not by works, the law, or commandments (Tit 3:5)

Actual text (NKJV)
Tit 3:4-7 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Note that there is no mention of the Law or commandments in that passage as you have indicated.
In fact, Paul is referring to baptism in water (the washing of regeneration) and baptism in the Holy Spirit. (renewing of the Holy Spirit) Being baptized could be considered a "work" since it's something we do.

So, what's my point?
My point is that it is a very good practice to be a Berean and make sure the cited scriptures actually support the point being made.

And you may notice that I quoted the entire thought, not just the piece you cited. I did that tho give a "feel" for the context of what was being said since things taken out of context can be abused to appear to say what the writer never intended.

That's all. I'm not trying to refute anything you said.
Just offering my 2 kopecks

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

I was shocked when I read that in the quote you posted. That's why I wanted to clear it up in my response first thing.
And thank you for your support. I do know you were sincere in your comment brother. God is good all the time.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

God chose those whom he would to be in his grace before the foundation of the world.

I see. So your theology is rooted in Calvinism.

God does not choose who will be in Him or who will not be in Him, as that violates mans freewill to choose.

He foresaw who would choose to believe, and He chose them before the foundation of the world.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

God through His foreknowledge saw down through the ages who would choose Christ, and He chose them to be predestined as sons.

God did not choose any tares, to be in Him as a tare is described as sons of the wicked one.

The predestined ones are among those who are sons of the kingdom.

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.
Matthew 13:37-38

• the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom

It is up to the sons of the kingdom to choose to believe as well as choose to remain in Him.

But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:12

Like I explained in the other thread, showing that Matthew 25:31-46 is about the sons of the kingdom who are being judged according to their deeds on the Day of Judgement. These are all His people, His citizens who are standing before the Judgement Seat of Christ, as Jesus had taught so plainly to His disciples in the parables starting in Matthew 24:45.

His servants will be given responsibility to be productive or fruitful with what He gives them to do, and each will be judged according to their deeds.

This principle has its foundation in the Sower and the seed.

Once we understand this parable we will understand this principle in all the parables.

John 15:1-6 teaches the same thing.

Unfruitful sons of the kingdom will not inherit the kingdom of God, though they were destined to, because they produced no fruit, because their deeds were evil, choosing rather to live according to the flesh.

• the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness.

Jesus said it this way -

But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.” Luke 8:21


JLB

 

[Traveling teacher]

I believe there is a deaper issue hear that needs to be addreessed!!!!!!

These 2 doctrines are usually at front and center of this discussion!!!!
1. Babtism as the point of salvation
2. Eternal security as the point of salvation .....

I have belonged to both of these type churches that cannot go beyond these into maturity.....

These are both mentioned in Hebrews 6:1-2
As elementary doctrines that would trip up the faith of christians if they get stuck in these 2 doctrines
And do not continue to grow and mature....
Hebrews 6:3-8

I believe what many are getting trapped in is EVENT BASED SALVATION....
Our nation is freaked out over events.....
Ex.-- I just went to Disney World and to a NFL football game.....
People will wait 4-6 hours to go on new rides or all night to get. Football tickets....

God specifically warned about this when Peter got freaked out at the Mount of Transfiguration and wanted to make 3 idols to 1. Jesus. 2. MOses and 3. Elijah.....
Great event but Peter wanted to make an idol out of it!!!!!
Matthew 17:1-5

My Question is this????
1. Is salvation a 1 time EVENT......??????
Or
2. Is salvation a life long RELATIONSHIP???
as Jesus said
He who endures to the end will be saved
Matthew 24:13