Under Grace not Under Law

[Papyrus_dust]

(Jesus said) “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd” (John 10:16).

 

[dirtfarmer]

People can walk away from Christ. Those who are In Christ know that Jesus doesn't walk away from them.
The parable of the Prodigal son is a beautiful reminder of that.
As is the reaction of the Prodigal's older brother. The older brother became angry that his brother had returned to the family home. And he was also angry that his father welcomed him back. That I believe is reminiscent of that which insists on promoting conditional security. I think it is a great thing to encounter in my life what was foretold as a lesson, a parable, in God's word generations before I was born. It prepares me for what comes. And then I am not surprised when what is coming arrives. Because God foretold of it so we , I , would be prepared.https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-stories/the-prodigal-son-parable-bible-story.html

hello Papyrus_dust, dirtfarmer here

Have you ever noticed that the prodigal son said; " I will go to my father" in verse 18 of Luke 15. This is an act of restoration of fellowship, not a re-establishment of a relationship? Hence, not a loss of salvation but the loss of fellowship.

 

[Eugene]

John's letters were addressed to believers, not to unsaved Jews, or gnostics or scribes or pharisees.

Jim Parker, just who are the WE unto YOU John is addressing in the following quote I made? You made the statement in a previous post #46 that 1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not . . . ., and And the same person also said:
1Jo 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
Which passage is wrong? (You don't really see a problem here?)

Then I posted the following:
Let’s look at 1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) Were those hearing this all saved? Let’s go further.
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you (Do you see two different opinions of God being presented here?), that ye also may have fellowship with us (How could unbelievers ever have fellowship with us whose fellowship is with our Father?): and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

hello Papyrus_dust, dirtfarmer here

Have you ever noticed that the prodigal son said; " I will go to my father" in verse 18 of Luke 15. This is an act of restoration of fellowship, not a re-establishment of a relationship? Hence, not a loss of salvation but the loss of fellowship.

A great observation to reiterate eternal salvation and God's grace is not irrevocable. Thank you for posting that brother. Someone can lose fellowship with our Lord, those who choose to leave their faith. But the father will never forget their name. Just as the father in the parable of the prodigal knew his son from afar off and rejoiced to see him return. But had he died in his journeys abroad, the father would have still loved and cherished the son he knew by name.

While the older brother was angry to see all of it restored. The fellowship and the family of his father. A very deep and abiding timeless message isn't it.

 

[brujaq]

I posted a prayer of George Washington in another thread, here starting at 20:30 George Washington in another prayer repents of less than what he considered deep heart felt prayer as his great sin .. The whole video is good .. On my best day at the end of a 7 day fast is when compared to God I realized his righteousness is ours compared to our flesh or pride.. Which settled once and for all that without covering and under the blood of Christ our righteousness is as dirty rags whatever we may think ..

 

[JLB]

Because you insist it means more than the truth he taught to John.

I don't insist anything Jesus taught means more than something else He taught.

However, I do believe we should reconcile His teachings throughout the Bible.

Also, if a scripture "seems" to contradict another scripture then when should begin to define the words or phrases used to see if we are "reading into" the scripture what our preconceived idea may think, rather than what He is saying, and compare to the whole of the other scriptures about this subject.


JLB

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Dr. James Kennedy is with our blessed Lord now. I enjoyed his sermons. Great post.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Romans 6
13 Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but undergrace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? By no means!…

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

In verse 6 that you quoted, who are "the sons of disobedience"? If Romans 8:1 is correct: "There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", and it is, then if a believer has the ability to become lost again, then scripture is false and not true, but scripture tells us that it is God that keeps us secure by the earnest of the Spirit.

Didn't Jesus teach us to go after His sheep who have wandered and become lost?

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32

Jesus' brother James, says it this way -

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
  
• wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.


JLB

 

[Papyrus_dust]

Romans 6 is clear. We were dead in our sins, we accepted the truth of God's eternal salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord. We were baptized with the holy spirit into the body of Christ. We are each one renewed, reborn, and are his church. And he is the head of his church.

Baptized, buried as Christ was buried in the flesh. And when we arise, as Christ did from the tomb, and as we are told Jesus then appeared in his glorified body, we too are reborn anew as a new somebody. Our old self left dead in the tomb. Our rebirth renewed alive in Christ. Not dead as we once were in our sins.
Romans 6 is a beautiful teaching that speaks these truths.

 

[JLB]

Romans 6 is clear. We were dead in our sins, we accepted the truth of God's eternal salvation through Jesus Christ our Lord. We were baptized with the holy spirit into the body of Christ. We are each one renewed, reborn, and are his church. And he is the head of his church.

Baptized, buried as Christ was buried in the flesh. And when we arise, as Christ did from the tomb, and as we are told Jesus then appeared in his glorified body, we too are reborn anew as a new somebody. Our old self left dead in the tomb. Our rebirth renewed alive in Christ. Not dead as we once were in our sins.
Romans 6 is a beautiful teaching that speaks these truths.

Yes.

Here are some truths from Romans 6.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:15-16

Grace empowers and enables us live in dominion over sin and it's desire to enslave us to its lustful deeds, so that we have the power to obey the Spirit within us, rather than the sin that dwells in our flesh.

This is a beautiful truth and I thank God for His grace and mercy towards me.


JLB

 

[Roro1972]

Ephesians 2:8-9
Philippians 3:9
Under Grace not Under Law

I'm under grace now, I'm no longer under the law, so I don't need to keep God's law, the ten commandments.

This is the most popular phrase I keep hearing with regards to the law of God, and keeping the Bible ten commandments. But what is the truth about being under grace and not under the law? Those professing Christians who claim that we no longer need to keep the law of God, ie, the ten commandments, often quote certain verses from the apostle Paul. One of the most popular verses being in Romans 6:14 ..... 'For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.'......Full teaching

​

Copied from the last paragraphs of the article.

Revelation 14:12 .....'Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.'

Yes we are under grace, but that doesn't and shouldn't stop us from keeping the law of God found in the Bible ten commandments. We are no longer under the law of sin and death, as Christ Jesus has freed us from this law, the law of the flesh. He paid the full price for our sin, but we should NEVER use His grace as an excuse to carry on living in sin. So the next time you think "Oh I'm under grace not under law", take a look at the WHOLE council of God and think on what Jesus did for you. He gave you a pardon from your death sentence. Are you now going to continue breaking the very law that put you in that death sentence in the first place? Are you going to count the love of Christ so cheaply? May God guide you into His truth about being under His grace.

EPH 2
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
The commandments were not put on the New Covenant Saints.

 

[JLB]

EPH 2
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
The commandments were not put on the New Covenant Saints.

So you are teaching that Christians can live in sin, no longer keeping His commandments?


JLB

 

[Traveling teacher]

I am convinced anyone can cut and paste and chop up scripture and make it mean just about anything......
Especially Paul's writings....
As Peter warned they would do to Paul
2 Peter 3:15-16

 

[Boaz308]

hello Boaz, dirtfarmer here

The mistake that most people make is trying to find church doctrine in the writings of Peter. We find in Galatians chapter 2 that Peter the apostle was an apostle to the circumcision not to the heathen(Gentiles). Paul was the apostle that was given by God to be the apostle to the heathen(Gentiles). When we read scripture we need to determine to whom it was written and apply it to those. Galatians 2:7-9 reveals that the gospel of the circumcision was committed to Cephas(Peter), James, and John(Galatians 2:7 & 9). When we apply doctrine established in those writings we bring confusion and God is not the author of confusion.

We need to rightly divide the word of truth: scriptures that are written by the apostles to circumcision apply to the Hebrews. Scripture written by Paul are to the heathen(Gentiles), those are the scriptures that we find doctrine for the age of grace(the church age).

Wow, well thanks for at least being honest about what you do with the scriptures that don't work for your doctrine. No one has ever been quite so candid before.

 

[Roro1972]

So you are teaching that Christians can live in sin, no longer keeping His commandments?


JLB

Im not a teacher. And I believe what the two verses say. It seemed quite clear what was in v 15
"the law of commandments" "contained in the ordinances" .
Jesus was asked on more than one occasion; (how one should live) he could have answered follow the 10 commandments; He never once said to keep the "10 Commandants" even when he a chance to just say that.
What we have in the New Covenant and New Testament are the same rules as in the 10 Commandments it is not called that any more.
2Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.


Luke 10 the lawyer talking in v 27 and Jesus in v28
why didnt Jesus say keep the 10 in v28?? Did Jesus mislead this man
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
there is much more but it makes to long a post

 

[Jim Parker]

just who are the WE unto YOU John is addressing in the following quote I made?

Is it really that obscure?
We: John and the fellow believers to whom he was writing.

Then I posted the following:
Let’s look at 1Jn 1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) Were those hearing this all saved? Let’s go further.
1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you (Do you see two different opinions of God being presented here?), that ye also may have fellowship with us (How could unbelievers ever have fellowship with us whose fellowship is with our Father?): and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

So, again, the people John addressed were believers. He told them that if we confess our sin, God will forgive and cleanse us.
Born again believers do not continually sin as they did before being born again but they still do sin. It's part of being human.

whosoever is born of God sinneth not

And in modern English (rather than Late Middle English that no body speaks any more) that means that whoever is born again does not practice sin as his normal manner of living. Your personal experience should reveal to you that, once you were born again, you never sinned again.

 

[Eugene]

in modern English (rather than Late Middle English that no body speaks any more) that means that whoever is born again does not practice sin as his normal manner of living. Your personal experience should reveal to you that, once you were born again, you never sinned again.

Good morning Jim. Out of all the Bible Hub bibles (25) listed concerning the words "sinneth not" written in the scriptures of
1 Cor 7:36, 1 Jn 3:6, and 1Jn 5:18, there was only one that agrees with your interpretation of "Practicing sin." It is the New Living Translation; an actual translation differing from the original New Living Bible, and the words "sinneth not" was only interpreted as "We know that God's children do not make a practice of sinning in 1Jn 5:18 only. The very same words "sinneth not" was interpreted as "Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin" in 1Jn 3:6, and "It is not a sin" in 1 Cor 7:36. I have no idea as to why.

The translations that agree with my teaching best are the following three, even pointing to Who does our keeping from sin.
International Standard Version - We know that the person who has been born from God does not go on sinning. Rather, the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them.
NET Bible - We know that everyone fathered by God does not sin, but God protects the one he has fathered, and the evil one cannot touch him.
GOD'S WORD® Translation - We know that those who have been born from God don't go on sinning. Rather, the Son of God protects them, and the evil one can't harm them.

Unless you can show me more, I reckon we'll just have to disagree for now. Be blessed in Christ Jesus.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Wow, well thanks for at least being honest about what you do with the scriptures that don't work for your doctrine. No one has ever been quite so candid before.

hello Boaz308, dirtfarmer here

The scriptures speak for themselves. I have no personal doctrine. When you compare scripture with scripture and come to an apparent contradiction, then you have a misunderstanding of scripture. It is hard to reconcile that we are sealed with the Spirit until the day of redemption, but we can lose our salvation. One of those conclusion s is incorrect. If we rightly divide the word of truth then that contradiction disappears. We then have confidence in the doctrine that we believe.

 

[JLB]

Im not a teacher. And I believe what the two verses say. It seemed quite clear what was in v 15
"the law of commandments" "contained in the ordinances" .
Jesus was asked on more than one occasion; (how one should live) he could have answered follow the 10 commandments; He never once said to keep the "10 Commandants" even when he a chance to just say that.
What we have in the New Covenant and New Testament are the same rules as in the 10 Commandments it is not called that any more.
2Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.


Luke 10 the lawyer talking in v 27 and Jesus in v28
why didnt Jesus say keep the 10 in v28?? Did Jesus mislead this man
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
there is much more but it makes to long a post

Yes written on our heart.

So we have God's righteous commands imprinted on our hearts because He dwells there.

If we live by His life and power within, which is love, we won't practice the deeds that sin dwelling in our flesh desires to manifest.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6


Never the less our faith, does have an expression, it does work, and it's source of power is love.

But when we use the word "work" or "obedience" or "doing good", people seem to automatically put that in the catagory of the law of Moses.


JLB