Was Paul Heretical in Teaching Sinless Perfection?

[electedbyHim]

Demons don't teach obedience to God, much less how to do so.

Non-biblical proofs shouldn't matter to anyone.
It is what God says that counts.
He commanded "Be ye holy for I am holy", (1 Peter 1:16, Lev 11:44), and "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt 5:48)

You claim you are sinless, so the proof is on you.

The Bible does not teach in anyway what you claim.

You interpretation of the Bible is not credible, like what you are trying to teach here, not credible. You have been debunked too many times to count.

 

[F345T]

... a lot of things Christians don't do aren't listed in the ten commandments.
Drug abuse and abortion spring to mind.

Drug abuse falls under the first 4 Commandments about how to love God more than anything/anyone else and to honor and revere Him. Abusing/poisoning God's Temple (our body) is not honoring to God. Making a substance our god, which is exactly what addiction is, is worshiping another god. When we make God our Number One, we desire to obey all that He has told us to do. Drug/alcohol use is walking in the flesh, not walking in the Spirit. We are to walk in the Spirit (which IS God), in obedience to the Spirit. Just as Jesus did.

Abortion falls under the last 6 Commandments about how we love our fellow man. Thou shall not kill covers abortion. Women today believe they have full ownership over their bodies. There is no reverence for the fact that our lives, and our bodies, are a gift from God Almighty. They are on loan to us so that we may use them to honor God. God teaches not to have sex outside of marriage. Women do so and then "Ooops!" get pregnant and then make the decision that they have a right to decide if that gift of life lives or not. They do not have that right. God gives and takes life at His discretion. We are not God.

I have already spent quality years in the KJV.

An education that money cannot buy today.

God bless.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 1 John 2:3-6
If by “anyone” you mean anyone “in Christ” then yes, of course.

If the "anyone" has taken to heart the words of 1 John 2:3-6, and adhered to them, it would be a man "in Christ".
But the words are still true for, whether or not men conform to them.

Only those who “know Him”, that is to say, those who are joined to Him and are one spirit with Him, (who are in Him) are able to keep His commandments.

Yes.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us.

Confession is the first step after hearing the gospel, before being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
(And the destruction of the old man before being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.)

Their sins reveals they were not "in Christ" before the sin.
Those walking in the light-God don't commit sin; so they must have been walking in darkness.

 

[Hopeful 2]

In Calvinistic theology, the concept of perfect obedience and sinless perfection on earth is often viewed with caution,

I wonder why, if pleasing the God who saved us is important at all ?

and the emphasis is placed on the doctrine of total depravity, recognizing the ongoing struggle with sin in the life of a believer.

That doctrine is born of men intent on continued sin among so-called believers.

While Christians are called to pursue holiness and obedience to God's commands, the idea of achieving absolute sinlessness is typically considered unrealistic.

How "typical" are the Lord's children ?
In fact, it is written..."Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14)

Calvin's Emphasis on Human Depravity: John Calvin, a key figure in Calvinism, stressed the fallen nature of humanity and the pervasive impact of sin on every aspect of human existence.

He seems to be unaware of the difference between the "born" and the "reborn".

Calvin's Perspective: "Original sin, therefore, appears to be a hereditary depravity and corruption of our nature, diffused into all parts of the soul, which first makes us liable to God's wrath, then also brings forth in us those works which Scripture calls 'works of the flesh.'" (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
Concerns about Perfect Obedience: Calvinists often express concerns about the idea of achieving perfect obedience on earth due to the persistent influence of sin and the fallen nature of humanity.
Calvin's Perspective: "As to the notion that a man can be without sin while he is in this mortal life, though it is easily refuted, it has yet some appearance of plausibility." (John Calvin's Commentaries on the Harmony of the Evangelists)
Recognition of the Believer's Struggle: While acknowledging the transformative work of God's grace in believers' lives, Calvinism recognizes the ongoing tension between the old and new natures, leading to a struggle against sin.
Calvin's Perspective: "It must not be supposed that believers are so sanctified in this world that they have laid aside all sin." (John Calvin's Commentaries on the Epistle to the Romans)
While striving for holiness is encouraged, the Calvinistic perspective generally holds that believers will not achieve absolute sinlessness on earth and emphasizes the need for continual reliance on God's grace and sanctification through the Holy Spirit.

I don't see any wisdom in striving for something they're own doctrine sees as impossible.

BTW, welcome to the site !
Merry Christmas !

 

[Hopeful 2]

You claim you are sinless, so the proof is on you.

How do you propose one does that on-line ?

The Bible does not teach in anyway what you claim.

It was nice of you to supply my verses from the post you answered, so I will repost them...
"It is what God says that counts.
He commanded "Be ye holy for I am holy", (1 Peter 1:16, Lev 11:44), and "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" (Matt 5:48) "
Care to revisit your comment ?

You interpretation of the Bible is not credible, like what you are trying to teach here, not credible. You have been debunked too many times to count.

If the "credible" interpretations accommodate more sin in "believers", I won't have anything to do with them.
Neither should you !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Billy Graham - No one is without sin - no matter what they say​

Billy Graham

Q: I have a friend who says he thinks he’s already achieved perfection, because he doesn’t know of any sins he commits now. Do you think that’s possible? How can we become perfect? — N.R.
A: You and I will never be perfect in this life; as long as we live on this earth we’ll still be sinners, and our ability to commit sin will always be with us. The Bible warns, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

Hungup & obsessing in claims to never sin while hiding behind a keyboard on the internet is the evidence of a life that is burdened with the yoke of sin and without the peace of God.

Better to come out of hiding and let a walk with God before the faces of people do the talking of Christ's redeeming Love and Christian Character in us lending His immeasurable influence face to face to a world in need.


Phl 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Too bad Billy was so far off base.
I hope he repented of that loser mentality before he died.

The only thing Paul was imperfect in, was the condition of his vessel.
What Paul had yet to attain was the resurrection of the dead, and as Phil 3: 21 says, a glorified body.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Drug abuse falls under the first 4 Commandments about how to love God more than anything/anyone else and to honor and revere Him. Abusing/poisoning God's Temple (our body) is not honoring to God. Making a substance our god, which is exactly what addiction is, is worshiping another god. When we make God our Number One, we desire to obey all that He has told us to do. Drug/alcohol use is walking in the flesh, not walking in the Spirit. We are to walk in the Spirit (which IS God), in obedience to the Spirit. Just as Jesus did.

Abortion falls under the last 6 Commandments about how we love our fellow man. Thou shall not kill covers abortion. Women today believe they have full ownership over their bodies. There is no reverence for the fact that our lives, and our bodies, are a gift from God Almighty. They are on loan to us so that we may use them to honor God. God teaches not to have sex outside of marriage. Women do so and then "Ooops!" get pregnant and then make the decision that they have a right to decide if that gift of life lives or not. They do not have that right. God gives and takes life at His discretion. We are not God.

No sin illustrates a love for God, or for neighbor.

An education that money cannot buy today.

God bless.

Yep.

 

[F345T]

No sin illustrates a love for God, or for neighbor.

Yep.

That's a really cute game you're playing.

You are really cute.

Some people are sincerely here to discuss Scripture.

If you use the Bible as the foundation of your position, you don't have to worry quite so much about being wrong.

 

[electedbyHim]

Too bad Billy was so far off base.
I hope he repented of that loser mentality before he died.

The only thing Paul was imperfect in, was the condition of his vessel.
What Paul had yet to attain was the resurrection of the dead, and as Phil 3: 21 says, a glorified body.

You come off as superior to everyone else and condescending.

All the well-known and Godly Theologians and Pastors over the centuries have it wrong and you are the only one right.

Quite comical.

I really do not take you seriously, so I will leave this thread.

I will pray for you.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That's a really cute game you're playing.
You are really cute.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Didn't I just agree with your post ?
Didn't you just agree with mine before it ?

Some people are sincerely here to discuss Scripture.

And I am glad they are.

If you use the Bible as the foundation of your position, you don't have to worry quite so much about being wrong.

Is there something you would like me to clarify, with scripture ?

 

[GodsGrace]

You come off as superior to everyone else and condescending.

All the well-known and Godly Theologians and Pastors over the centuries have it wrong and you are the only one right.

Quite comical.

I really do not take you seriously, so I will leave this thread.

I will pray for you.

Grace and peace to you.

E,
If you come back, please remember that you're in the Theology Forum.
Please do not make personal remarks.
Thanks.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You come off as superior to everyone else and condescending.

Being aligned with God gives that impression to those who are not

All the well-known and Godly Theologians and Pastors over the centuries have it wrong and you are the only one right.

I don't know all the theologians of the past...Godly or not.

Quite comical.

Not to those who really care about the souls of those tricked into accepting sin as normal for believers in Christ.

I really do not take you seriously, so I will leave this thread.

Ok, but you will be missed.
Don't forget all the scriptures I used to make my position clear.

I will pray for you.

God heareth not sinners. (John 9:31, 1 Peter 3:12)

Grace and peace to you.

I wish that was sincere.

 

[GodsGrace]

Being aligned with God gives that impression to those who are not

I don't know all the theologians of the past...Godly or not.

Not to those who really care about the souls of those tricked into accepting sin as normal for believers in Christ.

Ok, but you will be missed.
Don't forget all the scriptures I used to make my position clear.

God heareth not sinners. (John 9:31, 1 Peter 3:12)

I wish that was sincere.

Hopeful
God heareth not sinners sounds like you're calling the other member a sinner.

You probably meant it generally, but please watch your wording.
Thanks.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Billy Graham - No one is without sin - no matter what they say​

Billy Graham

Q: I have a friend who says he thinks he’s already achieved perfection, because he doesn’t know of any sins he commits now. Do you think that’s possible? How can we become perfect? — N.R.
A: You and I will never be perfect in this life; as long as we live on this earth we’ll still be sinners, and our ability to commit sin will always be with us. The Bible warns, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

Hungup & obsessing in claims to never sin while hiding behind a keyboard on the internet is the evidence of a life that is burdened with the yoke of sin and without the peace of God.

Better to come out of hiding and let a walk with God before the faces of people do the talking of Christ's redeeming Love and Christian Character in us lending His immeasurable influence face to face to a world in need.


Phl 3:12
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Too bad Billy was so far off base.
I hope he repented of that loser mentality before he died.

Thats showing your true colors now.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful
God heareth not sinners sounds like you're calling the other member a sinner.

His entire argument is that no man cannot be a sinner.
What else can anyone think about him ?

You probably meant it generally, but please watch your wording.
Thanks.

In light of the OP, I am just affirming his perspective.

 

[JLB]

If the "anyone" has taken to heart the words of 1 John 2:3-6, and adhered to them, it would be a man "in Christ".
But the words are still true for, whether or not men conform to them.

These are your words of opinion and not scripture.


The scripture plainly states that those who claim to have no sin, deceive themselves, and the truth is not in them.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The scripture identifies and guides our understanding in this matter.

A person who claims to have no sin, and no need to confess their sins in order to be forgiven, are deceivers of themselves and others whom they try to convince of their error.

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Here we see the Apostle John stating to his brothers whom he is writing to, that “we” John and all Christians do indeed have the need to confess their sin and be forgiven and cleansed.


Do you confess your sins to be forgiven, or do you believe you are sinless?







JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Thats showing your true colors now.

TRUE colors...well put.
If thousands of people are converting to a religion where everyone is still offending their God, (the religion Graham preaches), what could possible be gained by converting ?

It is written..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

 

[Hopeful 2]

These are your words of opinion and not scripture.

Scripture is pretty clear on the subject.

The scripture plainly states that those who claim to have no sin, deceive themselves, and the truth is not in them.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And John is absolutely right...if the person in question is walking in darkness, (sin).
But if they are walking in the light, (God), their sins have been washed away.
If their sins have been washed away, there is nothing preventing them from honestly saying they have no sins.

The scripture identifies and guides our understanding in this matter.
A person who claims to have no sin, and no need to confess their sins in order to be forgiven, are deceivers of themselves and others whom they try to convince of their error.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If all our unrighteousness has been cleansed, why can't we say it is all gone ?
1 John 1:6, 8, and 10 apply only to those still walking in sin.
1 John 1:5, 7, and 9 apply only to those who are walking in God, in Whom is no sin-darkness.

Here we see the Apostle John stating to his brothers whom he is writing to, that “we” John and all Christians do indeed have the need to confess their sin and be forgiven and cleansed.

Why do you keep committing the "IF" ?
If we walk in darkness...v6, 8, 10.
If we walk in the light...v5, 7, 9.

Do you confess your sins to be forgiven, or do you believe you are sinless?

I don't commit sin.
I walk in the light, in Whom is no sin.
So could you, if you admitted your interpretation of these verses deny you that privilege...and you confessed your past sins and got washed of them in the blood of Christ...and kept walking in God.

As it is written..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

 

[GodsGrace]

In Calvinistic theology, the concept of perfect obedience and sinless perfection on earth is often viewed with caution, and the emphasis is placed on the doctrine of total depravity, recognizing the ongoing struggle with sin in the life of a believer. While Christians are called to pursue holiness and obedience to God's commands, the idea of achieving absolute sinlessness is typically considered unrealistic.
Calvin's Emphasis on Human Depravity: John Calvin, a key figure in Calvinism, stressed the fallen nature of humanity and the pervasive impact of sin on every aspect of human existence.
Calvin's Perspective: "Original sin, therefore, appears to be a hereditary depravity and corruption of our nature, diffused into all parts of the soul, which first makes us liable to God's wrath, then also brings forth in us those works which Scripture calls 'works of the flesh.'" (Institutes of the Christian Religion)
Concerns about Perfect Obedience: Calvinists often express concerns about the idea of achieving perfect obedience on earth due to the persistent influence of sin and the fallen nature of humanity.
Calvin's Perspective: "As to the notion that a man can be without sin while he is in this mortal life, though it is easily refuted, it has yet some appearance of plausibility." (John Calvin's Commentaries on the Harmony of the Evangelists)
Recognition of the Believer's Struggle: While acknowledging the transformative work of God's grace in believers' lives, Calvinism recognizes the ongoing tension between the old and new natures, leading to a struggle against sin.
Calvin's Perspective: "It must not be supposed that believers are so sanctified in this world that they have laid aside all sin." (John Calvin's Commentaries on the Epistle to the Romans)
While striving for holiness is encouraged, the Calvinistic perspective generally holds that believers will not achieve absolute sinlessness on earth and emphasizes the need for continual reliance on God's grace and sanctification through the Holy Spirit.

Again, Tulipbee, please post the source of the above.
Whatever it may be....
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

His entire argument is that no man cannot be a sinner.
What else can anyone think about him ?

In light of the OP, I am just affirming his perspective.

Hopeful, according to you everyone is a sinner - even born again Christians.
Frankly, if everyone on this forum disagreed with an understanding of mine, I'd
pull back and try to understand WHY.

However this is your prerogative - to believe what you will, I mean.

Now I switch to my moderator mode and am asking that you do not refer to others as sinners.
It's flaming and goating and will lead to nothing but disruption of your own thread, depending on
who you say it to. It's been good so far, let's keep it that way. Thanks.