Was Paul Heretical in Teaching Sinless Perfection?

[Tulipbee]

I wonder why, if pleasing the God who saved us is important at all ?

That doctrine is born of men intent on continued sin among so-called believers.

How "typical" are the Lord's children ?
In fact, it is written..."Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14)

He seems to be unaware of the difference between the "born" and the "reborn".

I don't see any wisdom in striving for something they're own doctrine sees as impossible.

BTW, welcome to the site !
Merry Christmas !

Hello hopeful,

Thank you for the warm welcome and the thoughtful engagement with the topic. I appreciate your perspective and the insightful commentary on the concept of perfect obedience and sinless perfection.

It's clear that the tension between the recognition of human depravity and the call for holiness is a nuanced aspect of theological discussions. Your point about the seeming impossibility of achieving something considered unrealistic aligns with a broader conversation within Christian theology.

Your reference to Titus 2:14 emphasizes the transformative power of Christ's redemption and the call for believers to be zealous for good works. The tension between the "born" and the "reborn" is indeed a crucial aspect that various theological perspectives navigate.

I value the exchange of ideas, and I'm here for any further thoughts or questions you might have. Merry Christmas to you as well!

 

[Tulipbee]

Again, Tulipbee, please post the source of the above.
Whatever it may be....
Thanks.

Institutes of the Christian Religion," Book II, Chapter I, Section 8

I apologize for any confusion. Unfortunately, I've misplaced some of the sources. I did manage to find one, but moving forward, I'll make a conscious effort to provide direct sources instead of paraphrasing. Thank you for your understanding.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful, according to you everyone is a sinner - even born again Christians.

You have that wrong.
Everyone of age is a sinner, until they repent of sin.

Frankly, if everyone on this forum disagreed with an understanding of mine, I'd
pull back and try to understand WHY.

Sometimes the reasons are obvious.
If men never hear the good news about being freed from service to sin, how can they ever feel at one with Jesus ?

However this is your prerogative - to believe what you will, I mean.

Now I switch to my moderator mode and am asking that you do not refer to others as sinners.

OK, I will be more careful in the future.

It's flaming and goating and will lead to nothing but disruption of your own thread, depending on
who you say it to. It's been good so far, let's keep it that way. Thanks.

Gotcha'

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hello hopeful,

Thank you for the warm welcome and the thoughtful engagement with the topic. I appreciate your perspective and the insightful commentary on the concept of perfect obedience and sinless perfection.

Thanks, but your thanks go to God.

It's clear that the tension between the recognition of human depravity and the call for holiness is a nuanced aspect of theological discussions. Your point about the seeming impossibility of achieving something considered unrealistic aligns with a broader conversation within Christian theology.

My point is actually that we CAN achieve what some call impossible...and worse.
Total perfect obedience to God is available to all men.
This thread was in response to another, that claimed perfect obedience to God was a heresy.
I was asking, here, if Paul was a heretic for explaining how sinless perfection is possible, and how he wished all to be perfect too.

Your reference to Titus 2:14 emphasizes the transformative power of Christ's redemption and the call for believers to be zealous for good works. The tension between the "born" and the "reborn" is indeed a crucial aspect that various theological perspectives navigate.

It sticks in my craw that most can't envisage any change in their life at all, after their supposed rebirth from God's seed.

I value the exchange of ideas, and I'm here for any further thoughts or questions you might have. Merry Christmas to you as well!

You should be quite comfortable here, then.

 

[JLB]

Scripture is pretty clear on the subject.

Crystal Clear.



If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Question:
Do you confess your sins to be forgiven, or do you believe you are sinless?



JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Crystal Clear.



If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:8-9

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

That verse, and verses 6 and 10, address those walking in darkness.
They do not apply to those walking in the light.

Question:
Do you confess your sins to be forgiven, or do you believe you are sinless?

I am sinless...thanks be to God !
I walk in the light, and God is that light.
There is no sin in God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Here are a couple more verses by Paul recognizing perfect sinlessness...
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)

"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

Those freed from sin do everything the grace of God within them enables them to do, including resist temptation.
All praise be to God !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Here is another couple of verses where Paul writes about ex-sinners...
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

Paul knew full well that those in love with Christ won't commit sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

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Q:​

Is it possible for a Christian to live without sinning?​

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A:​

Nowhere does the Bible say that a Christian in this life will ever be completely perfect—that is, free from all sin (1 John 1:8).
As long as we are on this earth, we will always struggle against temptation and sin. That is one reason Jesus taught His disciples to pray (in The Lord’s Prayer), “Forgive us our sins … And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” (Luke 11:4, Matthew 6:13).
Sometimes we sin by our actions; sometimes by our motives. Often we sin not because of what we do, but because of what we fail to do. For example, we fail to love or forgive others, or in other ways fail to do things we ought to do—and that is sin.
However, there are three important truths we need to repeat over and over to ourselves. First, just because we sin does not mean we are no longer God’s children. Our fellowship with God may be broken, but our relationship is not. Second, when we sin God stands ready to forgive us, and we need to turn to Him immediately.
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). Third, God wants to help us (through His Holy Spirit, who lives within every believer) to avoid sin in the future. “Live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature” (Galatians 5:16).
Thank God that you belong to Christ, and thank Him for His grace and forgiveness when you do sin—and for strength to overcome future temptation. “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One” (1 John 2:1).

 

[Hopeful 2]

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Q:​

Is it possible for a Christian to live without sinning?​

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A:​

Nowhere does the Bible say that a Christian in this life will ever be completely perfect—that is, free from all sin (1 John 1:8).

Then 1 John 1:7 and 9 are lies.
They say that ALL our sin, unrighteousness can be washed away, cleansed.

As long as we are on this earth, we will always struggle against temptation and sin. That is one reason Jesus taught His disciples to pray (in The Lord’s Prayer), “Forgive us our sins … And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one” (Luke 11:4, Matthew 6:13).

OT prayers for OT man.

Sometimes we sin by our actions; sometimes by our motives. Often we sin not because of what we do, but because of what we fail to do. For example, we fail to love or forgive others, or in other ways fail to do things we ought to do—and that is sin.

Don't we have exhortations commanding not to do those things ?
If we are commanded not to do something, and we love God with all our heat, soul, and mind, we will obey.

However, there are three important truths we need to repeat over and over to ourselves. First, just because we sin does not mean we are no longer God’s children.

That is an untruth.
It is written..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:8-10)

Our fellowship with God may be broken, but our relationship is not. Second, when we sin God stands ready to forgive us, and we need to turn to Him immediately.

God has no relationship with liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

All unrighteousness ?
That means we can say we have no sin !

Third, God wants to help us (through His Holy Spirit, who lives within every believer) to avoid sin in the future. “Live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature” (Galatians 5:16).
Thank God that you belong to Christ, and thank Him for His grace and forgiveness when you do sin—and for strength to overcome future temptation. “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One” (1 John 2:1).

Did Jesus live his entire life without sin ?
So can we, thanks be to God, the gift of repentance from sin, rebirth from God's seed, and the gift of the holy Ghost.

So, in regard to the OP, you are saying Paul was a heretic.
He said..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)

And..."Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)

And..."But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)

Thankyou for participating.

 

[Josef]

What is a "kondlike" belief ?

Did Jesus commit any sin ?
No ?
The living without sin is possible !
God has given us everything Jesus had, so we too can walk in the Spirit instead of in the "flesh".

Hey All,
Not so. Living without sin is not possible Hopeful 2. We have something Jesus did not have. A sin nature.
As believers, we are constantly at war against the flesh. Jesus never had a sin nature. We are cleansed from all unrighteousness when we believed. But that does not make us invulnerable to sin. It just means our sin is covered by the blood of Jesus.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey All,
Not so. Living without sin is not possible Hopeful 2. We have something Jesus did not have. A sin nature.

Don't you beleive in rebirth ?
Instead of being born of Adam's seed, the reborn are born of God's seed.
And without a "sin nature".

As believers, we are constantly at war against the flesh.

Don't you beleive Paul's words from Rom 6:6-7 ?
It is written..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Jesus never had a sin nature. We are cleansed from all unrighteousness when we believed.

Doesn't that mean you can say you have no sin ?
Though I don't agree with you on "We are cleansed from all unrighteousness when we believed.", (knowing that past sins are remitted by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, Acts 2:38)...as long as your belief is real, you will refrain for hurting God or neighbor !

But that does not make us invulnerable to sin.

Sure does.
It is written..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (1 John 3:9)

It just means our sin is covered by the blood of Jesus.

I call that "The Harry Potter Invisibility Cloak Doctrine".
God sees everything we do, and nothing is hidden from Him.

 

[JLB]

That verse, and verses 6 and 10, address those walking in darkness.
They do not apply to those walking in the light.

I am sinless...thanks be to God !
I walk in the light, and God is that light.
There is no sin in God.

Yes we know there is no sin in God.

You on the other hand do indeed have sin.

You have a body that does indeed contain sin

Therefore when we read these verses we know that you and anyone else who claims to be sinless has deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10


Having sin is something we all have.

Sinning, or practicing the works of the flesh, is a different matter altogether.


We are all called to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walk according to the flesh.


Obviously the flesh , our physical body, does contain sin, and therefore can not be “in God”.


Our spirit is what is joined to Christ.


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17





JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes we know there is no sin in God.

If no sin is in God, neither are there any with sin on them "in God".

You on the other hand do indeed have sin.

Got some proof?
If not, quit slandering me.

You have a body that does indeed contain sin

My vessel is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
MY "body" was destroyed at my "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-6)
Thanks be to God, I walk in newness of life now.

Therefore when we read these verses we know that you and anyone else who claims to be sinless has deceived themselves and the truth is not in them.

• If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I walk in the light, which is God, in Whom is no sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

If a sinner says he has no sin, or that he has fellowship with God, he is a liar.

Having sin is something we all have.

Only the unrepentant commit sin.

Sinning, or practicing the works of the flesh, is a different matter altogether.

No. it isn't.
A seed can only bring forth after its progenitor.
Grapes come from grape seeds. They cannot bring forth anything but grapes.
Figs come from fig seeds. They will never bring forth apples or oranges.
Christians come from God's seed. They cannot bring forth the fruit of the devil.

We are all called to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walk according to the flesh.

So do it !!!!
Paul writes..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Obviously the flesh , our physical body, does contain sin, and therefore can not be “in God”.

Verse, please.
Show me were it is written that skin and bones have sin in them.
Especially reborn skin and bones.

Our spirit is what is joined to Christ.

True, for the repentant and washed.
But not for sinners.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

Jesus is not "one with" liars, thieves, adulterers, or murderers.

 

[JLB]

If no sin is in God, neither are there any with sin on them "in God".

Is your flesh one spirit with Him or your spirit?


But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


Did your flesh get born again or your spirit?

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6


When you can finally address these questions with honesty and stop dodging them like you have done since you joined this Forum, then people may begin to take you seriously.


Our physical body did not get born again at water baptism.

Because you were taught that your physical body was born again and is sinless, you now believe you are sinless and have never sinned and have no need to confess your sins to be forgiven.

This is why the scriptures teach us you have deceived yourself.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10



JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Is your flesh one spirit with Him or your spirit?

Both.
Like Paul writes..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
As I have been joined with the Lord, this scrip' also applies to me..."But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor 6:17)
Also..."For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Eph 5:30)

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17

Amen, one mind with Him so as to remain obedient to Him.

Did your flesh get born again or your spirit?
That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Both: after I was killed and buried with Christ, (Rom 6:3-4) I was raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
Quickened with Him, and a new creature.
It is also written..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses." (Col 2:11-13)

When you can finally address these questions with honesty and stop dodging them like you have done since you joined this Forum, then people may begin to take you seriously.

Believe the scriptures.

Our physical body did not get born again at water baptism.

Then the scriptures I cited are wrong.
If your version of things is true, our old man cannot be killed and we would be subject to it in spite of what Jesus did for us.
Our "body of sin" would be an anchor against God if such a horrible lie were the truth.
But thankfully, it is dead and buried with Christ.

Because you were taught that your physical body was born again and is sinless,..

Yes, as anything born of God must be as sin free as He is sin free.

...you now believe you are sinless...

Yes indeed !

...and have never sinned and have no need to confess your sins to be forgiven.

My God given gift of repentance from sin, and the gift of the Holy Spirit, and His words, and fellowship with like minded believers, and a lot of other things, has allowed me to resist temptation.
I confessed my sin many years ago, and was forgiven of them.
That forgiveness was enough by itself to keep me from offending God ever again.

This is why the scriptures teach us you have deceived yourself.

I wish you knew the joy of walking in the light, and being in God.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10

As I don't walk in the darkness, verses 6, 8, and 10 of 1 John 1 have no bearing on me or any of us who walk in the light.

Again I will ask..."Show me were it is written that skin and bones have sin in them.
Especially reborn skin and bones."

 

[JLB]

Both.
Like Paul writes..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
As I have been joined with the Lord, this scrip' also applies to me..."But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor 6:17)
Also..."For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." (Eph 5:30)

Being crucified with Christ is something that Paul could claim but certainly isn’t a blanket statement for every born again Christian.

No where does anything you wrote or any scripture say that our physical body has been born again.

Your spirit was born again by the Spirit.

You still have the same physical body that contains sin that you were born from your biological mother with.


Let me know when you find a scripture that says our physical body was born again?




JLB

 

[Hopeful 2]

Being crucified with Christ is something that Paul could claim but certainly isn’t a blanket statement for every born again Christian.crucified with Christ but we can't.

I would be interested in knowing why Paul can claim being crucified with Christ but we cannot ?
Especially with Gal 5:24 in mind..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
It would seem that everyone that is Christ's has been crucified with Christ.

No where does anything you wrote or any scripture say that our physical body has been born again.

I can't agree, as scripture says the Spirit quickens that which was once dead.
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Col 2:11-13)
"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Rom 8:11)
Only by denying the death of the old you, and the resurrection with Christ of a new body, can you keep on denying the new body.

Your spirit was born again by the Spirit.

Sure was, but things didn't end there.

You still have the same physical body that contains sin that you were born from your biological mother with.

I'll believe Rom 8:11..."But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Why don't you think that verse is true ?

Let me know when you find a scripture that says our physical body was born again?

This is the best one..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
"All things" means all things including the vessel.
It hearkens back to Jesus' parable about putting new wine into new vessels..."Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved." (Matt 9:17)
Th new wine is the Spirit of God, and the new vessel is the new creature.

 

[Corinth77777]

There is no such teaching in scripture called sinless perfection.

The way we are to be cleansed of our sin is by confessing our sin.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

• If you say you have NO SIN you deceive yourself, and the truth is not in you.

Furthermore -

• If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The way we are cleansed and forgiven our sins is by confessing our sin.

• If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The Apostle John here says if we, meaning himself and those who follow Christ Jesus, confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us.


Do you claim to be sinless?

If you do, the scripture plainly and clearly states that you are a liar, and you make our Lord to be a liar, and that you have deceived yourself.



JLB

Are you saying that the truth is not in hope?

 

[JLB]

Are you saying that the truth is not in hope?

Did I say that?

Please address what I actually said.