Scotth1960
Member
AMEN.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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What Do We Know About the Holy Spirit?
- Thread starter TRUTH over TRADITION
- Start date
francisdesales
Member
I am not ignoring anything. I have given you other verses where Jesus Himself breathes the Spirit. That is a procession from. Thus, the Spirit proceeds from the Son, as well. Your verse does not state anything about "ONLY". Just as one Gospel speaks of one angel, another of two angels at the tomb. The former mentioning of one angel does not deny the existence of the second. That is elemantary grammar, Scott. Nowhere does the Bible deny that the Father AND THE SON bring about the procession of the Spirit.
Now, whether Photius reformed after he got his spanking from Rome and the rest of the 8th Council (mostly Greeks), I cannot say. Perhaps he is indeed in heaven now. Perhaps he reformed and became a monk, silencing his forked tongue. But he certainly was not a saint for his stunt he pulled that brought the 8th Council into session. His "Mystagogia" is a TERRIBLE polemic work that could not have come from a person considered a saint at the time. During the first millenium, councils were brought into session due to schismatics or heretics. We have Arius. We have Nestorius. And we have Photius. The Orthodox need to admit they backed the wrong horse, which was quite common in the first millenium, if you cared to look at the history of the Emperor's backing heretical Bishops of Constantinople - almost ALWAYS at odds with Rome...
Without even reading the rest of what you typed, I can tell you are confusing infallibility with indefectibility. There is no guarantee that a Pope will not or cannot sin. ONLY tha the Spirit of God protects the Pope from uttering error when solemnly declaring and defining something for belief by the ENTIRE Christian faithful. THAT is protected by the Keys given by Jesus Christ to one man, Peter, and given to his successors as a sign of unity and protection of the faith once given... It would be foolish to think that a Pope CANNOT sin, when Peter himself denied Christ three times - but STILL was given by Christ to "FEED MY SHEEP". While it would be a wonderful example to the faithful to have a "saintly Pope", Jesus didn't find that as a REQUIREMENT to be able to Feed the Sheep.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
francisdesales
Member
Why did Leo III forbid the Filioque, Scott? For the sake of peace, or the sake that it was an heretical teaching? Naturally, the former. We STILL omit the Filioque when speaking the Creed in Greek in the presence of Greeks, Scott. Out of deference to our brothers (who fortunately, are not as rabid to condemn everyone not of Orthodoxy as you are), we drop the Filoque so as not to offend. Is there a possibility that Orthodox apologists can do anything other than offend? Must they feel the need to constantly harass and heckle a brother of an apostolic Church?
Regards
Scotth1960
Member
Dear francisdesales, I comdemn no one. You just seem to misrepresent what I am doing. What is not required of us, submission to Rome, will not condemn anyone, nor do I comdemn you since you say things I disagree with. We just have a difference of opinion. I just think you are making too much of one bishop. Rome has apostolic succession, but they stepped away from unity in 1054 AD. Until then they were doing fine. I was doing fine until I sinned. So I don't condemn anyone. I need forgiveness myself. I just don't agree with papism. Take care. God bless you. (I do not harass you, disagreeing is not harassing, you should be fair. I have no personal animosity against you. It is okay to disagree and still be friends.) In Erie PA Scott Harrington
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
Josh I must say that this is one of the more insightful posts I have read in a long time. It would do us all well if we all could see how vital and intricately the OT and NT is tied together. That would help us better understand prophecy as well as unify in a more complete knowledge of God's Word.
Again, I admire the thought and study you put into the inspired writings. Your care for scripture is evident from your posts.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
Does the Father in Heaven give his Holy Spirit only to those whom he chooses, at a time when he chooses, or is he somehow "forced" to give his Spirit to all and anyone who are baptised by some preacher or church?
Is that what scripture says He'd do?
Is the Spirit of God at all given or available to humans at this present time?
------------------
So many people have been caused to think that if one belongs to "the church", then one can receive the Holy Spirit. Is that really the case; let's examine some things from scripture to see. Let's start with a statement from Jesus. Luke 11:13 reads: Then if you being evil know to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father out of Heaven will give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him.
Is this a promise to all and everyone, at all ages, under all circumstances?
The answer can be determined by finding out to whom it was that Jesus was addressing. He was addressing His students who were with Him (nearly 2000 years ago mind you). Those same disciples were then commissioned by Jesus after His resurrection, hear His words, first from Luke's gospel.
Luke 24:
46 And he said to them, ‘It was written that the Anointed One would suffer this way and rise from the dead on the third day. 47 Then, in his name, [the message of] repentance for forgiveness of sins is to be preached in all the nations, starting from Jerusalem. 48 Now, you are to be the witnesses of these things.49 ‘And look; I’m sending you [something] that was promised by my Father. So, stay in the city until you’re clothed with the power from above.’
We know from other texts that the 'something' Jesus promised was what we call the Holy Spirit. Now....
Acts 1:
1 TheoPhilus; This is the first time I’ve put together all of the things that Jesus did and taught 2 up to the day he was taken, and after he gave commandments to the Apostles who he selected by Holy Breath. 3 He gave them so much proof that he was alive after the things he suffered, and they saw him for forty days as he told them about the Kingdom of God. 4 And when he met with them, he gave them the orders, ‘Don’t leave Jerusalem, but keep waiting for the promise that I told you would come from the Father. 5 Because, although John baptized with water, in just a few days you will be baptized in Holy Breath.’6 Then, when they all met with him, they asked, ‘Lord, are you going to return the Kingdom to Israel now?’ 7 But he said, ‘It isn’t your business to know the times and periods that the Father is in charge of. 8 You will receive power when the Holy Breath comes over you, and you’ll be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, all of Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.’
As you can see from scripture, the promise of Holy Spirit baptism that is recorded in the gospels from the mouth of both John and baptiser and Jesus was to those who would later become Jesus' apostles! This promise was NOT given to anyone else. Does that mean that God cannot give His Spirit to whom He chooses, certainly not. What it does mean is that any who attest that the Bible teaches that God promised that all believers would be baptised in the Holy Spirit is not being true to the scriptures and is uttering falsehood.
Now, that we see the WHO was that was promised HS baptism, let's examine these additional questions.
How does one receive the Holy Spirit, and how can one know whether or not one has received it?
The best and most honest answer I can provide is to say that there is no formula. God give it to whom He chooses by whatever means He chooses. The prophets of old were said to at times be filled with the Spirit and no mention is given as to how they received that gift other than the fact that God choose them. Hebrews 1 addresses this fact.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1 Long ago, God spoke to our fathers through the Prophets in many places and in many ways. 2 And in the last part of these days, He speaks to us through a Son who He has made the heir to everything… the one that He used to create the ages.
Okay, so since this the time of the writing of this text, Jesus is the spokesman and so again we need to be mindful of what Jesus said about who HE would baptise with the HS. Based on the NT texts it is evident that Jesus is the one who does the baptising with Holy Breath. The one definate recorded incident of this happening occured on the Day of Pentacost in Acts 2. The only other possible occurances also occurs in Acts, this time at the home of a gentile named Cornelius in chapter 10 and with the gifting of Saul of Tarsus (the apostle Paul) with HS Baptism. HS Baptism is implied by the scripture, but the actual event is not written down.
Other than these 3 occurances where Jesus apparently immersed the individuals mentioned above with Holy Breath, EVERY one who is said to have gifts of the Spirit got those gifts from the laying on of the apostle's hands. Apparently being able to distribute spiritual gifts was one of the signs of an apostle. See the words of Paul.
2 Corinthians 2:12
12 Indeed, it was the sign of an Apostle that produced endurance in you by means of signs, omens, and powerful works.
So what we can glean from scripture is that HS Baptism was promised by Jesus to His apostles and that the gifts of the spirit were only passed by the laying on of the apostle's hands.
Since all 13 of the apostles meant their fate at least 1900 years ago, where can people today get spiritual gifts other than from Jesus doing a supernatural intervention that HE DECIDES to do?
Is that what scripture says He'd do?
Is the Spirit of God at all given or available to humans at this present time?
------------------
So many people have been caused to think that if one belongs to "the church", then one can receive the Holy Spirit. Is that really the case; let's examine some things from scripture to see. Let's start with a statement from Jesus. Luke 11:13 reads: Then if you being evil know to give good gifts to your children, how much more the Father out of Heaven will give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him.
Is this a promise to all and everyone, at all ages, under all circumstances?
The answer can be determined by finding out to whom it was that Jesus was addressing. He was addressing His students who were with Him (nearly 2000 years ago mind you). Those same disciples were then commissioned by Jesus after His resurrection, hear His words, first from Luke's gospel.
Luke 24:
46 And he said to them, ‘It was written that the Anointed One would suffer this way and rise from the dead on the third day. 47 Then, in his name, [the message of] repentance for forgiveness of sins is to be preached in all the nations, starting from Jerusalem. 48 Now, you are to be the witnesses of these things.49 ‘And look; I’m sending you [something] that was promised by my Father. So, stay in the city until you’re clothed with the power from above.’
We know from other texts that the 'something' Jesus promised was what we call the Holy Spirit. Now....
Acts 1:
1 TheoPhilus; This is the first time I’ve put together all of the things that Jesus did and taught 2 up to the day he was taken, and after he gave commandments to the Apostles who he selected by Holy Breath. 3 He gave them so much proof that he was alive after the things he suffered, and they saw him for forty days as he told them about the Kingdom of God. 4 And when he met with them, he gave them the orders, ‘Don’t leave Jerusalem, but keep waiting for the promise that I told you would come from the Father. 5 Because, although John baptized with water, in just a few days you will be baptized in Holy Breath.’6 Then, when they all met with him, they asked, ‘Lord, are you going to return the Kingdom to Israel now?’ 7 But he said, ‘It isn’t your business to know the times and periods that the Father is in charge of. 8 You will receive power when the Holy Breath comes over you, and you’ll be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, all of Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.’
As you can see from scripture, the promise of Holy Spirit baptism that is recorded in the gospels from the mouth of both John and baptiser and Jesus was to those who would later become Jesus' apostles! This promise was NOT given to anyone else. Does that mean that God cannot give His Spirit to whom He chooses, certainly not. What it does mean is that any who attest that the Bible teaches that God promised that all believers would be baptised in the Holy Spirit is not being true to the scriptures and is uttering falsehood.
Now, that we see the WHO was that was promised HS baptism, let's examine these additional questions.
How does one receive the Holy Spirit, and how can one know whether or not one has received it?
The best and most honest answer I can provide is to say that there is no formula. God give it to whom He chooses by whatever means He chooses. The prophets of old were said to at times be filled with the Spirit and no mention is given as to how they received that gift other than the fact that God choose them. Hebrews 1 addresses this fact.
Hebrews 1:1-2
1 Long ago, God spoke to our fathers through the Prophets in many places and in many ways. 2 And in the last part of these days, He speaks to us through a Son who He has made the heir to everything… the one that He used to create the ages.
Okay, so since this the time of the writing of this text, Jesus is the spokesman and so again we need to be mindful of what Jesus said about who HE would baptise with the HS. Based on the NT texts it is evident that Jesus is the one who does the baptising with Holy Breath. The one definate recorded incident of this happening occured on the Day of Pentacost in Acts 2. The only other possible occurances also occurs in Acts, this time at the home of a gentile named Cornelius in chapter 10 and with the gifting of Saul of Tarsus (the apostle Paul) with HS Baptism. HS Baptism is implied by the scripture, but the actual event is not written down.
Other than these 3 occurances where Jesus apparently immersed the individuals mentioned above with Holy Breath, EVERY one who is said to have gifts of the Spirit got those gifts from the laying on of the apostle's hands. Apparently being able to distribute spiritual gifts was one of the signs of an apostle. See the words of Paul.
2 Corinthians 2:12
12 Indeed, it was the sign of an Apostle that produced endurance in you by means of signs, omens, and powerful works.
So what we can glean from scripture is that HS Baptism was promised by Jesus to His apostles and that the gifts of the spirit were only passed by the laying on of the apostle's hands.
Since all 13 of the apostles meant their fate at least 1900 years ago, where can people today get spiritual gifts other than from Jesus doing a supernatural intervention that HE DECIDES to do?
E
Elijah674
Guest
Re: What Do We Know About the Holy Spirit?
Does the Father in Heaven give his Holy Spirit only to those whom he chooses, at a time when he chooses, or is he somehow "forced" to give his Spirit to all and anyone who are baptised by some preacher or church?
Is that what scripture says He'd do?
Is the Spirit of God at all given or available to humans at this present time?
------------------
We can BANK on who has been Given the Holy Spirit as is DOCUMENTED in Acts 5:32.
SURRENDER TO OBEDIENCE is Required!
Is that what scripture says He'd do?
Is the Spirit of God at all given or available to humans at this present time?
------------------
We can BANK on who has been Given the Holy Spirit as is DOCUMENTED in Acts 5:32.
SURRENDER TO OBEDIENCE is Required!
ageetonyagee
Member
This is bible based teaching when Jesus breathed on people to receive of his Holy Spirit as he was about to shortly depart from his disciples.
Normally the Holy Spirit is referring to the bible-----John 6:63.
No such thing as hearing from God without the bible---Romans 10:17.
This is where people can get caught into giving money and doing crazy stuff trying to be loyal to God.
Manipulation is used instead of bible based teaching to get people to do things.
This is what people are calling a cult or false teaching ministry to investigate.
Nobody can buy a miracle from God nor can they buy a preached word to hear.
Miracles and the gospel talk is free.
At the same time we're encouraged to give generous to people really preaching the gospel.
The trouble is we barely know people in the bible before we make a bold claim their a preacher of the gospel of Christ----John 8:31 and 2 Timothy 3:16.
Meet a preacher really believing John 3:5 that's a start----Galations 1:8-9.
Meet the same preacher believing Romans 6:1 that's progress---Gal. 1:8-9.
Meet the same preacher believing Hebrews 4 it's more hope their a
believer---John 8:31.
In other words we can't know Christians right away---2 Timothy 3:16 and
1 Thess. 5:12 ?
The Christian purpose in doing so is to be with our kind only---2 Cor. 6 and
John 17 and Amos 3:3
QUOTE=TRUTH over TRADITION;496530]Let's talk about the matter of the Holy Spirit or should I say Separate (special) Breath from God that was promised by Jesus.
In the book of John, Jesus says the following to his 12:
This text marks the initial promise of the HS given by Jesus to those He would leave in the world after his resurrection. The fulfillment of what Jesus promised above came at Pentecost, most would agree. Notice in Acts 2 who received the Holy Breath at Pentecost, it was Jesus' disciples, not everyone.
Now just to be clear. God can give this SPECIAL BREATH (Holy Spirit) to anyone He choses at anytime He desires. I am not saying God doesn't or hasn't given it to anyone since the Bible times, but what I am saying is that the special gift of Holy Spirit was promised by Jesus to a select group in His discourse in the book of John and we should not look at this promise as if He were speaking to us. Notice how the 'who' Jesus was addressing is identified in chapter 15:26-16:4
[/QUOTE]
Normally the Holy Spirit is referring to the bible-----John 6:63.
No such thing as hearing from God without the bible---Romans 10:17.
This is where people can get caught into giving money and doing crazy stuff trying to be loyal to God.
Manipulation is used instead of bible based teaching to get people to do things.
This is what people are calling a cult or false teaching ministry to investigate.
Nobody can buy a miracle from God nor can they buy a preached word to hear.
Miracles and the gospel talk is free.
At the same time we're encouraged to give generous to people really preaching the gospel.
The trouble is we barely know people in the bible before we make a bold claim their a preacher of the gospel of Christ----John 8:31 and 2 Timothy 3:16.
Meet a preacher really believing John 3:5 that's a start----Galations 1:8-9.
Meet the same preacher believing Romans 6:1 that's progress---Gal. 1:8-9.
Meet the same preacher believing Hebrews 4 it's more hope their a
believer---John 8:31.
In other words we can't know Christians right away---2 Timothy 3:16 and
1 Thess. 5:12 ?
The Christian purpose in doing so is to be with our kind only---2 Cor. 6 and
John 17 and Amos 3:3
QUOTE=TRUTH over TRADITION;496530]Let's talk about the matter of the Holy Spirit or should I say Separate (special) Breath from God that was promised by Jesus.
In the book of John, Jesus says the following to his 12:
This text marks the initial promise of the HS given by Jesus to those He would leave in the world after his resurrection. The fulfillment of what Jesus promised above came at Pentecost, most would agree. Notice in Acts 2 who received the Holy Breath at Pentecost, it was Jesus' disciples, not everyone.
Now just to be clear. God can give this SPECIAL BREATH (Holy Spirit) to anyone He choses at anytime He desires. I am not saying God doesn't or hasn't given it to anyone since the Bible times, but what I am saying is that the special gift of Holy Spirit was promised by Jesus to a select group in His discourse in the book of John and we should not look at this promise as if He were speaking to us. Notice how the 'who' Jesus was addressing is identified in chapter 15:26-16:4
[/QUOTE]
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
If you believe you have the Holy Spirit, can you point out the exact moment when the Spirit came upon you and if so will you please describe what happenned?
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
As far as I am aware, no such scripture exists. It appears from what is revealed that the HS was either given by observable miraculous means as in the cases of Jesus' baptism, Pentecost, and the conversion of Cornelius' household or via the laying on of the hands of the apostles to baptised believers.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
So I take it you are under the impression that one who believes, repents of former ways, and is subsequently baptized immediately receives the gift of God's Holy Breath. This is a very popular teaching. Growing up with many Campbellite friends I am very familiar with such a belief, BUT in scripture, that picture is not what is painted for we see no examples of thse who followed the "formula" listd above automatically receiving the gift of Holy Breath. Again, what we see in scripture is that the Spirit was given by observable miraculous means (Acts 10:44) or via the laying on of the apostle's hands (Acts 19:6).
And just how many total instances do we have in Scripture compared to the thousands of believers? Just because Acts shows what happened or how it was done among the initial instances with difference groups of people, does not in any way mean that that is how it is always supposed to happen.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. The Truth being the knowledge of Who God is as a person so that believers may know God. To know God is to know the Love that is Holy and Eternal. The Holy Spirit testifies to this Love that is God and is seen on display at the cross of His Christ. All true believers must have it or rather Him therefore, for this is what they are believing in.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
Can't argue with that line of reasoning at all. We are in fact dealing with a God who spoke the world into being so for Him, we don't exactly have boundaries. But for the person claiming to have received God's Holy Breath, their claim lacks credibility when their experience does not match what the scriptures reveal and their claims become extremely subjective, nonverifiable, and inconclusive.
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If you can't argue with that line of reasoning, then why are you arguing with it? :D The line of reasoning that our experiences much match exactly with what happened in Scripture or it isn't of God, is quite weak, fallacious, and can even be dangerous.
The Bible is a guide and a measuring stick. It is not at all a completely detailed manual on how our experiences must be.
TRUTH over TRADITION
Member
So would I be correct in making the assumption that you believe that believers today are promised God's Holy Breath? If so, why?