What does it mean to be Born-Again?

[JLB]

Probably, but as I said, we can only speculate. Speculations are weak, I try to avoid them. Romans 5 says that his trespass is not like the trespass of those who came after him, because his was conscious disobedience, rejection of God whereas the trespasses that followed were sown into them by the world, thus they were fashioned to believe the sin they were doing in fact was doing good. The effect was the same though, in that it cut them off from God and made them slaves to sin (spiritual death).



Why do you see those as being two different things?



Can you give an example? I don't assume that it does include babies and chidren, unless they are in fact doing sin. Many things that parents punish children for in fact aren't sin. For example, a baby cries when he is hungry, but that isn't sin, it is just a cry of distress.



I answered that already. Please explain why my answer was not full enough.



But it is how that sin spreads that is the matter of discussion. The letter kills but the spirit gives life. They had lost the spirit of life even though they were still passing on words - through those words, the ways of sin are spread (1 Corinthians 15:33, Ephesians 2:1-3).



That's fine by me.



You have constructed that theory, and the bible doesn't support it. It forces you to speak blasphemy against the innocent ones.



Twice now, I tell you that you are committing fallacy. What Adam did was introduce sin to the world, so that it spread upon all and brought death to all. But it is wrong to say that the death comes on account of his sin, when in fact it comes on account of their individual sin, as a result of his having introduced sin in the first place.



Actually, it is because his sin was more severe. He was not deceived as Eve was, but he actually chose to follow Eve even though he saw that she had become a sinner. He chose to be with her in flesh and in so doing, abandoned the spirit of God.



What!?? There is no choice in the matter. A baby is 100% dependent on the world, and the world takes 100% liberty to fashion it into its own likeness. Have you ever seen a child that has remained 100% uncorrupted? The very fact that he doesn't steal other people's things is proof that the world has fashioned him in its image. Nobody is born with any sense of ownership - that is man's social construct. Many such things they do, that we need to overcome in order to be renewed in the mind (Luke 6: 27-38).



I will not quarrel. I know that you are resisting the truth and it is enough that I have said it already.



Let me know if you have any questions in order to understand how I can accept those scriptures without the doctrine that you know I am opposed to.



That does not make sense. A person cannot become a sinner unless they indeed do sin.

Do you believe Cain and Able were born with flesh that contained no sin?



JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

Irrefutable.


It doesn’t say by their disobedience they became sinners, it says by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners.

Exactly! .. and how, exactly? That is where you and I differ. You believe it comes through the DNA. I do not. I see with my eyes, that all sinful behaviour comes into them from the teachings of the world. You also are twisting scripture insistently, which I will take no part in.

 

[JLB]

I believe each person inherited sin in their flesh from Adam.

Then eventually a child will begin to obey the sinful desires of the flesh that they were born with to disobey God.


When God begins to hold each child accountable for their sin, is another topic.


Maybe we can agree on this point.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You also are twisting scripture insistently, which I will take no part in.

Please stop with the derogatory comments and attacking me, with your opinions and fallacies.

Im open to hear you out and listen to you, so we can find common ground.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Exactly! .. and how, exactly? That is where you and I differ. You believe it comes through the DNA. I do not. I see with my eyes, that all sinful behaviour comes into them from the teachings of the world. You also are twisting scripture insistently, which I will take no part in.

Do you believe Cain and Able were born with flesh that contained no sin?



JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

Please stop with the derogatory comments and attacking me, with your opinions and fallacies.

Im open to hear you out and listen to you, so we can find common ground.


JLB

Wow, you're really worked up! .. I'm actually typing a reply to you and you can't wait? .. maybe I should leave it for another time.. or leave it altogether? I really have said enough already, that if you had wanted to understand then you would already have reached it.. let me know what you think.

 

[Serving Zion]

I believe each person inherited sin in their flesh from Adam.

I don't.

Sin is in the world, and it has already worked out how to break the human nature through breaking into Adam. Ever since it had that voice in the world (through being the possessor of Adam: Romans 7:14c), it has spread from one to another, so that we all become infected by it, because the nachash was "more cunning than all the beasts that God had made".

Then eventually a child will begin to obey the sinful desires of the flesh that they were born with to disobey God.

The flesh isn't born with sinful desires though, and that's important. If it weren't for the ideas and concepts of sin that came into the world through Adam, the flesh would use its desires only in a holy way.

When God begins to hold each child accountable for their sin, is another topic.

It's already there though, at the very core of this discussion: "I was alive before the commandment came" (Romans 7:9).

Do you believe Cain and Able were born with flesh that contained no sin?

JLB

Yes I do. Is there a scripture that you think that view does not fit with?

In so doing the sin he committed would be inherited in the flesh of all his offspring, by which death spread to all men.

JLB

I don't see it that way.

You have nothing to quarrel about since the truth from the scriptures has been plainly and openly shown to you, and you openly reject it.

That's exactly what I would say to you!

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:19

This instructs us, many were made sinners by Adam’s disobedience, not by their own sin, but through Adam’s disobedience.

Here now I can see you keep doing this, so I really need to spell it out a bit clearer where I have said you are committing logical fallacy.

You say that many were made sinners by Adam's disobedience, and that is what scripture says, and I agree. But you then say that it is not by their own sin, which is not what scripture says, and I don't agree. The reason I say that it is a fallacy, is it is drawing a false association as the cause. Just because all became sinners as a result of Adam's disobedience, doesn't mean that they necessarily were sinners before they committed their first sin. There is another way to rationalise that statement, and exactly as I have said, sin "spreads" from one man to all through the patterns of behaviour and the indoctrination of the sin nature that is in the world.

 

[JLB]

Wow, you're really worked up! .. I'm actually typing a reply to you and you can't wait? .. maybe I should leave it for another time.. or leave it altogether? I really have said enough already, that if you had wanted to understand then you would already have reached it.. let me know what you think.

Here is the way you have presented your doctrine.


I asked you a question: From post #63


How did the sin and death that entered the world through the one man, spread to all men?


Here is your answer: from post #68

James 1:14-15 explains it





Then you are shown that James is referring to how each of us is drawn into sin, which has nothing to do with the ”one man’s disobedience” by which sin and death were passed to all men.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— James 5:12


Do you have any scriptures that say mankind is born with a body that is sinless?



JLB

 

[JLB]

You say that many were made sinners by Adam's disobedience, and that is what scripture says, and I agree.

Good.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But you then say that it is not by their own sin, which is not what scripture says, and I don't agree.

This is what I said.

I believe each person inherited sin in their flesh from Adam.

Then eventually a child will begin to obey the sinful desires of the flesh that they were born with to disobey God.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Can you see how your next statement appears to be an immediate contradiction? :



If so, please explain.

I said I believed John 3:5 was referring to natural birth.
YOU said I was assuming this.
I said I wasn't assuming anything since there is not clear teaching on this. One could believe it's natural birth or one could believe it's baptism. I even gave you both choices.

I even showed you how one comes to being born again by believing in Jesus NOT by being baptized. This I will uphold.

If you want to believe and understand this to be baptism, (John 3) you'll get no criticism from me....but I also expect no criticism since natural birth can also be shown to be what Jesus was speaking of.

I'd like to understand better why you think Adam's sin did or did not spread to humanity --- thus causing both physical and spiritual death.

I agree that children are not held responsible for sin until the age that they understand what they are doing---maybe 12 or so, depending on the child.

Will continue to read now....

So, I see no contradiction in what I've stated.

OTOH,,,,I've been reading along with much interest but find it impossible to know your position on this matter.

I understand that you believe John 3:5 to be baptism.
I understand that the term should be "born from above".
I think we could all agree on this and also on the fact that born again - as it is used - and born from above has the same meaning.

 

[GodsGrace]

James 1:14-15 explains it.

Yes...but WHY is everyone enticed by their own lust?

This is due to the sin nature with which we are born...
some call it the flesh.

This sin nature causes us to TEND toward not obeying God....it tends toward sin. Due to Adam's sin we are born with this flesh or sin nature.

Only after being born of above are we regenerated, made new to life in Christ and at this time we will tend toward God's wishes and will tend to obey Him.

While we were dead, God made us alive.
Ephesians 2:5

 

[JLB]

Just because all became sinners as a result of Adam's disobedience, doesn't mean that they necessarily were sinners before they committed their first sin. There is another way to rationalise that statement, and exactly as I have said, sin "spreads" from one man to all through the patterns of behaviour and the indoctrination of the sin nature that is in the world.

Each person is born with a body that contains sin, being passed on from Adam, which some refer to as a sin nature.


Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:14


Maybe you should go back and read Romans 5:12-19 again.

Here are some very key statements:

• over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,

• The by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one

For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

• by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.



To me these passages speak of Adam‘s sin and the death sin wrought, being spread to all his offspring, so that each person was born with sin in their flesh.


This sin in each person’s flesh will cause them to sin at some point.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

That's a very strange thing to say, perhaps you would reword it. James is not talking about Adam, but how each person is tempted and thus how sin is conceived in them. It shows how sin spreads and brings forth death in everybody, because all come to do sin.



Not exactly, because the facts don't exist in the records (afaik). We only know that Eve shared the fruit with her man who was with her, and he ate of it. Genesis doesn't show us what it was about that offer that was tempting him. Perhaps it was the same idea that the serpent had put into Eve, that Eve was then encouraging in him. We can only speculate.



Yes, otherwise sin would not have had a place in the world, right?



Fallacy.



By what Adam did in the beginning.



By word and deed. Sin is already in the world when we are born into it, and the world fashions us into its image before we come to be of strength in independence, and thus when we become strong in independence, the sinful ways are already formed in us. We aren't born with any sinful tendencies though, just purity and needs.

Two interesting ideas here.

1. Why did Adam eat of the forbidden fruit?
2. Is a child sinful?

1. We can only speculate as to why Adam ate of the fruit.
Perhaps he just wanted to make Eve happy....
Perhaps he was tempted by the look of the fruit, as she was.
Maybe he knew the severity of what she did and felt he could not leave her alone in her sin....even though it is Adam that caused the fall, and not Eve.

2. Children are sinful. Children are good when their parents teach them to be good. Left to their own devices, they are not good. Some are, of course, but most are not. They pick at each other, make fun of each other, steal from each other, call each other names, hit each other, and some violently.

Pretty negative? I taught kids our faith....up to the age of 11/12. I speak from experience. Children are disruptive and think only of themselves.

They must BECOME good.
When I used to teach kids about sin...they'd many times tell me that they never sinned. When, in reality, they were sinning all along but did not know it and so were not morally responsible for it.

This is why I mentioned the age of accountability --- to which you did not reply.

 

[GodsGrace]

I reject that teaching. It is sin that separates us from God, not that anybody is born separated from God (Isaiah 59:2 && Matthew 18:2).


I do not believe it in the way that you do here. There is important detail that this outline doesn't convey.

Please convey the outline that you believe.

Please remember that I do NOT agree with Augustine and his idea of Original Sin. I never said that a child that dies would not go to be with God.

But what do I believe that you find wrong?

 

[Serving Zion]

Do you have any scriptures that say mankind is born with a body that is sinless?

JLB

Ecclesiastes 7:29 says it. Can you show me yours?

Then you are shown that James is referring to how each of us is drawn into sin,

Yes, that is what I quoted.

which has nothing to do with the ”one man’s disobedience” by which sin and death were passed to all men.

I do not agree. I also passed you 1 Corinthians 15:33.

Then eventually a child will begin to obey the sinful desires of the flesh that they were born with to disobey God.

Do you know what I said in response?

Each person is born with a body that contains sin, being passed on from Adam, which some refer to as a sin nature.


Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:14


Maybe you should go back and read Romans 5:12-19 again.

Here are some very key statements:

• over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,

• The by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one

For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

• by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.



To me these passages speak of Adam‘s sin and the death sin wrought, being spread to all his offspring, so that each person was born with sin in their flesh.


This sin in each person’s flesh will cause them to sin at some point.


JLB

No, I don't agree. It is the world that teaches them to develop sinful desires.

By the way, did you really mean to emphasise the highlighting as you did, to say that death reigned over those who had not sinned?

The proper reading is to see that they had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam. Their sin was of a different likeness.

 

[Serving Zion]

I'd like to understand better why you think Adam's sin did or did not spread to humanity --- thus causing both physical and spiritual death.

The physical and spiritual deaths are different things.

If Jesus was walking around, as Adam would have been if he had not have fallen, he would have resurrected anybody that He loved, right? God's vision was exactly that "in Him was life, and the life was the light of mankind" .. but what happened? God said "the man has become as one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take and eat from the tree of life and live forever..." so Adonai drove the man out of the garden, saying "dust you are, and to dust you will return".

The spiritual death comes as a result of the choosing to abandon obedience (Romans 6:16, Romans 7:9), that in that moment, the thief takes us captive and we begin walking in the darkness.

Remember that children are not born being liars. They become liars because they learn that grown-ups can't be trusted with the truth. It is the devil that is the father of lies, and thus, when we come to an age when we begin concealing our true actions, there is the spiritual death. "Adam, where are you?" .. and they are hiding from the truth, a spirit that is not of the light gets into them. That is why they need to be spiritually reborn - born again - born from above - born of the spirit - born of God.

Here I have said this too:

sin "spreads" from one man to all through the patterns of behaviour and the indoctrination of the sin nature that is in the world.

I see with my eyes, that all sinful behaviour comes into them from the teachings of the world.

I agree that children are not held responsible for sin until the age that they understand what they are doing---maybe 12 or so, depending on the child.

I don't put that age on it, because it depends upon the particular sin and their individual maturity. Romans 7:9 just says it so beautifully, as does Romans 7:7 and Romans 7:11.

I understand that you believe John 3:5 to be baptism.

No, it isn't baptism.

I understand that the term should be "born from above".
I think we could all agree on this and also on the fact that born again - as it is used - and born from above has the same meaning.

Yes, that is ok to say, but technically not right, and it doesn't convey the real value of the meaning - which is why it has become "Christianese" and most people don't really understand it. That's why I have said it is a bad translation and it is better to say "born from above". It conveys a much more descriptive meaning.

Yes...but WHY is everyone enticed by their own lust?

Exactly! Babies aren't born with sinful desires. Where does it come from? (Please offer some examples if you disagree).

This is due to the sin nature with which we are born...
some call it the flesh.

Flesh nature is with us since birth, sure. But flesh nature is not the same as sin nature. Jesus ate because His flesh was hungry, but He didn't sin by doing so. The flesh nature doesn't automatically become sinful. Sin comes through the corruption of the human nature that is introduced through the experience of distress and the fear of it.

This sin nature causes us to TEND toward not obeying God....it tends toward sin. Due to Adam's sin we are born with this flesh or sin nature.

I am not a partaker of that doctrine.

Only after being born of above are we regenerated, made new to life in Christ and at this time we will tend toward God's wishes and will tend to obey Him.

That's ok, and I do find that children receive the breath of life immediately when I meet them. Especially babies. That's why Jesus says "see to it that you do not despise these little ones".

2. Children are sinful. Children are good when their parents teach them to be good. Left to their own devices, they are not good. Some are, of course, but most are not. They pick at each other, make fun of each other, steal from each other, call each other names, hit each other, and some violently.

Pretty negative? I taught kids our faith....up to the age of 11/12. I speak from experience. Children are disruptive and think only of themselves.

They aren't born that way though and we can discuss that a bit more if you'd like to give examples.

They must BECOME good.
When I used to teach kids about sin...they'd many times tell me that they never sinned. When, in reality, they were sinning all along but did not know it and so were not morally responsible for it.

That's Romans 7:7 for you, isn't it? .. and Romans 5:13 for all intents and purposes (ie: the law effectively doesn't exist if it isn't made known, right? Otherwise the law would have applied all that time while it existed in God's view but was not yet made known through Moses).

This is why I mentioned the age of accountability --- to which you did not reply.

Well hopefully what I have said here is enough.

Please convey the outline that you believe.

This is what you said:

A child is born suffering from Adam's sin but is not imputed with it. The child will not be responsible for sin until he is old enough to understand what sin is....this is called the age of accountability.

Knowing what those words mean to you, and the things about that view that I am opposed to, I would have said the same thing more like this:

A child is born, destined to suffer because of Adam's sin that is in the world. Although he is not held accountable for Adam's sin, during the process of learning to live according to the world's ways, he will do things that are wrong from time to time. Although his behaviour might be sinful, God's judgment of sin is according to His individual expectations of us. As the child's understanding of right and wrong develops, he reaches a maturity of understanding that makes him accountable for his sin.

But what do I believe that you find wrong?

You don't realise that the sin nature develops as a result of the insecurity caused by the fallen world. You believe babies bring sin into the world rather than the fact that the world puts sin into the babies.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Jesus did love the little children. Jesus also loved women, poor people, lepers, outcasts. Basically...

Jesus showed a softer, gentler love towards the masses of His society...who did.not.matter to most people. Children often died by infanticide in ancient cultures. Under Roman law, a father could sell his offspring into slavery to pay off -his- debts. Female children, in particular, were often sold off, mistreated, or ended up dead by infanticide.

I am thankful for Christ and His love for -all- people, especially since He has shown mighty love towards love of low status people that simply isn't available to them/us in the world. now...

Until the Victorian era or so, children weren't really...held in high regard. Some time in the 19th century, a mix of economic changes (read: the rise of a middle and upper middle class) and social changes = a whole new sort of childhood, for those who could afford it. Children's books and toys and literature for and about children...

do keep in mind, though, that at the same time, the poor and working class children were often facing hard, relatively short lives...working long hours at young ages, poor living conditions, many even ended up in prostitution at young (read: not legal in today's society) ages...

and that was just the way the world worked. Actually...with growing media coverage of trafficking, child abuse, and taking a more international view of things...

-sigh- it would appear that, for a whole lot of this planet, that's -still- the way the world works. :-(

I just mention that to say that the view of children as innocent, in need of nurturing and protection...is relatively recent. I'm -thankful- that the view has since permeated all levels of culture (to a point...), because it beats the alternatives, clearly. thing is...

(progressive, much appreciated) social changes aside, Scripture is fairly clear that all are born in sin. I'm reminded here of what Jesus saves His children from: sin, satan, self, death, and The World.

 

[JLB]

It's already there though, at the very core of this discussion: "I was alive before the commandment came" (Romans 7:9).

If you would look the context, or at least the whole verse, it reveals something important that you aren’t understanding.

You’re taking this verse or half of verse and trying to build a whole theology around this part of the verse.

You are trying to say babies are born without the sin in their physical body that was passed on from Adam’s disobedience, because part of this verse says....I was alive once without the law, while ignoring the rest of the verse


I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
Romans 7:9


How can sin revive in his flesh if it was never there to begin with?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Babies aren't born with sinful desires. Where does it come from? (Please offer some examples if you disagree).

It comes from the sin in their flesh being passed on from Adam’s disobedience.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:19

• one man’s disobedience many were made sinners,

What your saying is... by many peoples disobedience they were made sinners.


How can a sinful father, pass on a sinless bloodline to his offspring?


Makes no sense whatsoever! None.


Why did Jesus have to be born of a virgin, if he would have been born with a sinless body from Joseph?



JLB