what does a baptist have to do with anything/// it makes God no difference on denom only one thing matters that your name is written in the lambs book of life
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What is The Baptism that saves us now?
- Thread starter Runmyramble
- Start date
Walpole
Member
Well let me ask you a couple of questions that thus far no one has answered...
Jesus' last instructions are to teach and baptize. He then gives the proper form: "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
Question #1 ---> Can you demonstrate where someone is baptized dry, that is, using the form given by Jesus where someone is baptized without a single drop of water?
a. Yes
b. No
Question #2 ---> If I went to your church and asked for a dry baptism with just the Spirit and no water - as you and others are arguing - would your pastor simply say over me, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" and would I therefore be considered baptized?
a. Yes
b. No
I wonder what the Ethiopian eunuch's answer might be?
Not really...as his answer was demonstrated in Acts 8:38..."And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."
Walpole
Member
Exactly.
Notice not one person has answered my simple questions. These "baptism does not involve water" folks not only cannot answer how to receive this baptism sans water, but have no way of knowing whether or not they have even been baptized via their own "dry" baptism.
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How is Mk 16 “out of context.” You can say it all you want but you need to show me how I took it out of context.
Was Paul writing to people that had already believed, repented, and been baptized in water? Yes or no?
So one doesn’t have to repent?
Where does the Bible say this? Whenever people say this they never post a scripture. Paul draws you a picture in Rom 6 and specifically states that one has a “New life” when they are raised up out of the water and not before. You say your new life (born again) happens before even entering the water and being buried with Christ. I’ll believe Paul instead of you.
Without the savior there would have never been “johns baptism”. Johns baptism was for people who were to believe on the Christ to come. Acts 19
When it comes to baptism....it matters what you believe before you go into the water. If you believe that you are already saved before entering the water then your baptism is null and void. Useless!
I’m not surprised you would think that.
There are two baptisms in the Bible: baptism in water and baptism in the Holy Spirit. It means submersion or immersion, nothing more.
Brother, the reason I repeated part of my post is, you have completely ignored the scriptures that I posted, and the points I made from those scriptures.
I know it may be hard for you to grasp, but Romans 6 is not the only passage that teaches us about baptisms.
Please acknowledge that you read the different Scriptures I quoted, and that you understand that there are three different baptisms, that involve three different baptizers.
JLB
I see Hopeful hates the scriptures I posted because they expose the error of his doctrine.
Paul says it this way --
having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
2 Timothy 3:5
Any doctrine that denies the power that we receive when we are baptized with the Holy Spirit is from the devil and is a Doctrine of demons.
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Acts 1:8
JLB
Who is the baptizer in the baptism in water?
Who is the baptizer in the baptism with the Holy Spirit?
Walpole
Member
I wonder if the "baptism does not involve water" folks' translation reads...
Acts 8:36-38 Gnostic edition ---> "As they traveled along the road, they came to some breezy air and the eunuch said, 'Look, here is some breezy air. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?' And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the breezy air and Philip baptized him."
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A better way to state that would be...There are two baptisms for the new believer.
Baptism with water into Christ, and into His death and burial, for the remission for past sins, and, baptism by the Holy Ghost.
The first is done by man, and the second, by God.
In the first we are immersed into water, and the second, the Holy Ghost is immersed into our new creature..
Runmyramble
Member
So much has been said....And no one says that water Baptism is not an outward sign..and what was practiced after being saved. As over 200 post confirm...
It's the conscience that has to be clear before God.....
And scripture states it.....in 1 Peter 3:21
And here are 2 clear passages that have been typed over and over.....but never responded to ....
Many can act like they are not there but they are....
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an
evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Eph 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word
Ezekiel 36:25
I will sprinkle you with pure water and you will be clean from all your impurities. I will purify you from all your idols.
Now let's look at........something even greater
John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
5Who then overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.
These are passages that can't be ignored
And I want to look at these...and the books prior to the new Cov..
1 Why was everything sprinkled with BLOOD?...WAS IT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE USED FOR THE SERVICES OF GOD?
Let's find out...(interesting thought)to Enter a new way of life is to enter a new way of being guided...by the Spirit...
There is one more passage I want to note..but first...it brings me to why Jesus did not want to be touched after His ressurrection. WHAT DID HE NEED TO DO?
Hebrews 9:11
But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from......
Please take a look at these passages...to understand the Baptism that saves us now.
It was in His baptism..into death (destroying the works of the devil- seperation from God), by the sacrifice of His own body that we are reconciled to God..............
That we may live by His Life...
God is God...
Because Christ lives forever He can INTERCEED on the behalf of those who come to Him.
Water does not clear my conscience
The conscience is a Spiritual matter..
It takes the Spirit to deal with what is Spiritual...
The new Covenant is about by the Spirit and not the letter(rituals to save)
The letter killeth..."the Spirit gives life"
Water Baptism is an outward sign..of what is done on the inside....
How would one know in that day...what happened in the inside...by what you professed on the outside.
What saved you...The outside water baptism...or what God did on the inside when He gave you a new heart?
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Runmyramble
Member
That is definitely not how we are arguing it...if you have been reading...
I'm not trying to say this by any means to agitate but there are many times when people are seeing or understanding out from their religious doctrine.
For question (2)I believe you have to understand the full Gospel...and because one may lack understanding of the Gospel they may asked a question like this.....we can take "what s the Gospel?" to another thread...
Because you dont go to the church to ask for the Baptism we are speaking of...
You first need to be preached or taught Christ....and have The Spirit reveal to you that He is the Son of God; the ruler, maker, creator, king, teacher...etc..with intent to follow Him...
The way I see it when one believes the word of God's testimony concerning His Son with intent to follow....they receive His Spirit.
Do you see that as ONE WHO IS baptism...?
YOU ARE IN ANOTHER WORLD LIVING IN THIS WORLD. BECAUSE YOUR KING IS Jesus. YOU ARE NOW BEING DIRECTED AND GUIDED BY THE SPIRIT......
YOU CAN CHOOSE TO FOLLOW...RESULT LIFE AND PEACE
OR LIVE BY THE FLESH....RESULT SEPERATION
CHRIST IN YOU
NOW, WHAT ONE DOES WITH THE SPIRIT ALSO SAVES THEM
IF ONE CHOOSES TO WALK BY THE SPIRIT THE BLOOD CONTINUES TO CLEANSE THEM...
NOW WATCH HOW THIS WORKS....
I have a saying: you do not know what you have until you walk in it.
Example: Say I give a teenager 200 dollars, on Monday to cut my lawn before He does the Job, because I am going on vacation.
Well should He in good conscience spend the money before He has done the Job? Is it really His to Spend....If He spent it before He did the work...it's alway going to be on His mind He did not do the work required of it...
But if He lives up to the money given by doing the work required of it then He knows what He has been given is truly His....therefore a clear conscience to Spend and use as He pleases.
In the same like figure above,
WE are given the Spirit...and God has called us to be set apart (holy) for His service. The Spirit is truth, and God is in the light. If we live in terms of the Spirit we shall live. Meaning if we walk according to truth......we shall live up to righteousness.....
And this is how we have a clear conscience before God. BY the Spirit....
One you have life and you are at peace .
Therefore we know what we have when we walk in it.
It's how we relate to God...If God is Love then walk in Love.
If God is Peace then walk in Peace..etc
For this is life eternal: John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
And so what does He say:
23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me.
So...one can get water Baptized and do communion....etc....and if their heart has not been made right with God......they will not have peace......(so is water Baptism the Baptism that saves us....or being cleansed by the preached or teached living , enduring word of God through his Eternal Spirit
Well..read 1 Peter 3....again
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Notes:
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
Matthew 15:11
Interesting by the Spirit He preached to the Spirits...in prison
Runmyramble
Member
JLB
I did not know if this was a verse about being put into Christ....or the continual sanctification afterwards.....until I saw
the word "us" in verse 21.
Who is the "us"?....He is including Himself and He is already part of the body.. So wouldn't He already be Baptized Into Christ at this point....which would also exclude the ritual water baptism... which is usually done once.....(that leads me to another thought though ha)
So then this Baptism- cleansing/washing must be of the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that bring us into promises of God.
So this is after one has received the Spirit...in order to live by it.
Please tell me what you think..tks
I did not know if this was a verse about being put into Christ....or the continual sanctification afterwards.....until I saw
the word "us" in verse 21.
Who is the "us"?....He is including Himself and He is already part of the body.. So wouldn't He already be Baptized Into Christ at this point....which would also exclude the ritual water baptism... which is usually done once.....(that leads me to another thought though ha)
So then this Baptism- cleansing/washing must be of the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit that bring us into promises of God.
So this is after one has received the Spirit...in order to live by it.
Please tell me what you think..tks
Runmyramble
Member
How are sins continually forgiven....and its through communion(deep) walking in the light...living in the light of truth..God thank you...thank you thank you...
Walpole
Member
There is only one baptism. (Eph 4:5)
Baptism, by definition, necessitates water. Yet water by itself is not a baptism and it exercises no power on its own; for it is but a material sign of what is communicated spiritually. It is only with the Holy Spirit does it become baptism. Christian baptism requires water and the Holy Spirit. (cf. John 3:5)
Water in salvation history brings both death and life. It represents the destruction of the old (former ways) and recreates something new. The waters of the deluge washed the sinners away, and through it something new was created. Thus St. Peter tells us Noah and the other seven were saved through water. St. Paul tells us Moses and the Israelites were baptized "...in the cloud and in the sea" (cf. 1 Cor 10:2). As with the deluge, water brought forth death and life. What the Jews call the miracle of the parting of the Sea, St. Paul calls a baptism. This is a type of Christian baptism, with the cloud representing the spirit and the sea representing the living waters of baptism.
We also have the example of our Blessed Lord in his own baptism. St. Matthew tells us He went into the water and the Spirit depended upon him. (cf. Matthew 3:16) This is what it means to be baptized.
Lastly, going back to 1 Peter 3:20-21, where the Apostle explicitly states baptism is salvific, he dispels any notion that baptism can be done sans water. Here again are his words...
"...to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." (1 Peter 3:20-21)
The Apostle links the deluge to baptism. The water saved Noah and his family and the waters of baptism now saves you. We know he means actual water because he says baptism is not for the removal of dirt from one's body, but is instead salvific. If the baptism he was speaking about was symbolic, that is one sans water, it would not even be capable of removing dirt from the body. So clearly WATER is involved in this baptism that is salvific. Baptism is the anti-type of the waters of the deluge. The waters of baptism now cleanse not our flesh, but our sin. (cf. Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Titus 3:5) Hence its effect is not on our flesh (i.e. removal of dirt), but rather on our interior.
This is why you, nor anyone else, can answer my simple questions. For if there were such a thing as a salvific dry baptism, you would be able to easily answer my questions, which you and others have all dodged.
In Christianity, matter...matters.
Walpole
Member
Enlighten me. Where do you receive this baptism Jesus instructed? Again, Jesus' last instructions are to teach and baptize. He then gives the proper form: "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
Question #1 ---> Can you demonstrate where someone is baptized dry, that is, using the form given by Jesus where someone is baptized without a single drop of water?
a. Yes
b. No
Question #2 ---> If I went to your church and asked for a dry baptism with just the Spirit and no water - as you and others are arguing - would your pastor simply say over me, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" and would I therefore be considered baptized?
a. Yes
b. No
Scripture says there is only ONE baptism. If Jesus said you must be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and if this is the ONE dry baptism you are advocating, you should be able to demonstrate this form being used for the dry baptism. If not, then you would have no way of knowing if you are even baptized. So, have you ever seen someone baptized using the form given by Jesus without any water?
We are witnessing in near real time the folly of trying to start a new belief based on another religion's (Christianity) beliefs. In Christianity, matter...matters.
Baptism doesn't remove past sins. The blood of Christ is the full penalty for all sins. It is only belief in Him as one's Savior that causes sins to be "removed". Baptism in water is simply a ritual stating that one repents of past sins (but it doesn't remove them) and one is symbolically emerging as a new creation.
If water baptism achieved remission for past sins then all those who came to John to be symbolically cleansed in the Jordan River had no need for Christ.
Mungo
Member
You may believe that but there is no scriptural support for those beliefs.
That does not follow. Just because both baptism's use water it does not mean they are identical in their results.
In Acts 19 Paul come across 12 men in Ephesus who had only been baptised with John's baptism. They were then baptised in Jesus name. One big difference was they did not receive the Holy Spirit in John's baptism but they did in baptism in Jesus name.
Buy a new Bible and/or read it more carefully. As usual, you are wrong.