Runmyramble
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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What is The Baptism that saves us now?
- Thread starter Runmyramble
- Start date
Mungo
Member
My comment was to jaybo. I don't know why you answered.
Mungo
Member
No, there was only one true baptism. That was with water.
So called Baptism in the Holy Spirit only uses baptism as a metaphor.
Mungo
Member
In the Catholic Church baptism certificates serve a practical purpose.
Firstly it certifies that a person has been validly baptised into the Catholic Church.
It's rather like the state issuing a marriage certificate to show they have been validly married (as far as the state is concerned).
A record is also kept in the parish where the person is baptised.
That record is used to record other sacramental events in a Catholics life, for example when they get validly married according to Catholic rites.
Taking the simplest case of a Catholic marrying a Catholic in a Catholic church, each Catholic must obtain a new baptismal certificate from the parish where they were baptised. If there have been married before this will show on the certificate.
When they are married the parish of baptism is notified and entered on their baptismal record.
My opinion is that the majority of people today being baptized are wasting their time. Why? Because they are being baptized for some reason other reason then the one God commanded. They are sprinkled, poured on, baptized as a small child, baptized “because they are saved”, baptized into some strange church or denomination. It’s harder to get into the Baptist church then into heaven. So, my opinion is that these people can hand out whatever certificates they want because it’s all just made up anyway. But no, those that have heard the gospel, believed it, repented and been baptized in water in order to put on Christ and have their sins removed will not receive a “certificate”. I didn’t. Nobody I know within the lords church has. The only certificate we receive that matters is the recording of our name in the lambs book of life. And you won’t see that certificate until judgment day.
Here’s why...
In acts 1 Jesus, speaking directly to the apostles made this promise....
Acts 1:4,5 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
This promise, right here, at this time, was ONLY GIVEN to the apostles. They waited 10 days and then this happened to ONLY the apostles.
Acts 2:2-4 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
This describes what a “baptism of the HS” looks like. It is a miraculous event for effect. This was not for their salvation.
There is only one other example of HS baptism in all the NT and guess what? It follows this same pattern. (Acts 10) It was a miraculous event other people could witness. Everyone knew something amazing had just taken place. NOWHERE do we ever see a non miraculous “HS baptism” (If so, show me) and all these people today want to claim they were “baptized with HS” even though there was no miraculous event and they can’t prove any of it. It goes like this.....yeaaa, I was baptized with HS! Someone then says...oh yea? What happened?
Oh..nothing, I just know I was baptized with Spirit.
Those in acts 8, after they were baptized in water, DID NOT receive the Spirit. The HS, through Luke, made it a point to tell us this fact. The Bible will define what it means if you just read, study and let it do the work. Dont add to or take away from the text. There is much more I could say as to why I dont believe this is for us today but I don’t see how people get past these above facts.
No. Nowhere did Peter EVER promise the “baptism of the HS”. Peter said...after a person was baptized, they would “receive the gift of the HS”. He DID NOT use the phrase....”baptism with the HS”. Jesus in acts 1 specifically used that baptism phrase when he made the promise to the apostles. You are adding words to the text that aren’t there. Don’t get caught into that trap.
Now the discussion would be....
What is “the gift of the HS”? I have a Bible based opinion on that and that would take many lines and probably an entire thread to discuss.
I know Peter mentions that phrase in acts 10 but does that mean that the “gift of the HS” was the direct baptism of the HS or was he just referring to the miraculous ability Cornelius was now displaying?
I think the “gift of the HS” was the miraculous ability they displayed.
There were two ways to receive this kind of miraculous ability.
1. Directly through Jesus in the “baptism of the HS” displayed here and in acts 2.
2. Then there was through the laying on of an apostles hands. Either way, the new miraculous ability these people had was a gift of the HS.
In acts 8, after they were baptized in water, apostles (Peter and John) were sent to lay hands on these new converts so that they could receive the Spirit. Well if the promise in acts 2, by Peter, was for everyone directly from Jesus then why didn’t it happen here? This miraculous ability, given by the apostles, in acts 8 is literally called....the “gift of God”.
Acts 8:19,20 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
The “gift of God” is the same as “the gift of the HS”. If not why not? The HS is “God” as proven in acts 5:3,4.
So, no....I do not believe that “the gift of the HS” is the SAME as “the baptism of the HS”. The “gift of the HS” can be found in both the baptism of the HS and through the laying on of hands of an apostle. We dont receive either today. Why? There is no need for it. If a person won’t believe the biblical record then they won’t believe even if one was raised from the dead. Lk 16:31
was what happened to Cornelius the same as what happened to those in Ephesus? Yes or no? If yes then explain how.
show me one person in the NT that received “HS baptism” and wasn’t aware of it?
Lamasibmysamalalabymea
Did it sound something like that? Because I watch Jimmy Swaggert doing it on TV and that’s about how it goes.
Please show me anyone in the NT that jabbered as “speaking in tongues”?
Mungo
Member
I think there is some confusion here.
According to Zeb Bradford Long and Douglas McMurray, two Presbyterian Charismatics, in their book Receiving The Power, there are two distinctive ways in which the Holy Spirit acts and these are often confused, not the least because the same phrases are used in scripture regarding them. These two ways are referred to by Long & McMurray as ‘the Spirit upon’ and ‘the Spirit within’. I quote:
"There are two major motifs in scripture…that reflect two different operations of the Holy Spirit. One motif has the Spirit coming “upon” people for power in ministry. A second has the Spirit coming “within” people for salvation and to develop in them skill, wisdom, godly character and maturity in faith and love. Both motifs are equally important and equally biblical." (from Receiving The Power)
Thus there is an internal and external work of the Spirit.
The internal work corresponds to the sanctifying gifts of the Spirit, as well as practical gifts.
The external work corresponds to the charismatic gifts of the Spirit which are given for work of ministry
In baptism (with water) we receive the Holy Spirit for the internal work of renewing and sanctifying us.
In the "Baptism with the Holy Spirit" we receive the Holy Spirit for the external gifts for ministry and the upbuilding of the Church.
When scripture uses the phrase “receive the Holy Spirit” (or similar) it may be using it to refer to either “the Spirit upon” or the “Spirit within”. Some discernment is needed and sometimes the text is not clear. One test is whether there is some manifestation of “the Spirit upon”.
The Spirit Upon
In Acts, Luke seems to use the term exclusively for “the Spirit upon”. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit, in the form of tongues of fire, comes to rest on those in the Upper Room and they all begin to speak in tongues (manifestation) (Acts 2:1-4)
In Acts 10 the Holy Spirit falls on Cornelius and his household and they began to speak in tongues (manifestation). Peter says "Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" (vs 47) – referring to Pentecost. This is “the Spirit upon”.
In Acts 8 Phillip has been baptizing in Samaria. Peter and John are sent to lay hands on those baptized and prayed for them “that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:15-17). Though no particular manifestation is reported there clearly was one because Simon the magician wanted to have the same power saying "Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." (Vs 19)
In Acts 19 Paul is in Ephesus and meets 12 men who claim to be disciples but they seem to be lacking something. Paul asks:
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They replied
"No, we have never even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
They had only been baptized in John’s baptism. Paul has them baptized in the name of Jesus “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.” (vs 6)
It seems they had not received the Holy Spirit in the sense of “the Spirit upon” because Paul could see no manifestations, which then happened when Paul laid hands on them. If they had not been baptized in the name of Jesus then they had not received “the Spirit within” either, but I will come to that later.
The Spirit Within
Paul himself, in his writings, seems to use receiving the Holy Spirit in the sense of “the Spirit within” (for character and salvation)
“For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Rom 8:15-16)
“Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.” (1Cor 2:12)
“Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God?” (1Cor 6:19)
There are also two ways of being filled with the Holy Spirit which correspond to that internal and external work.
But I'll leave that for now.
From heaven.
Will you answer my question?
Was Johns baptism for gentiles as well as Jews?
Johns baptism is not the only one that is with water. Jesus, in the great commission, commanded water baptism under the new covenant.
It was proven in acts 19 that Johns baptism was no longer in effect because Paul told these people they had done wrong through Johns baptism and then he baptized them again, in water, with great commission baptism. The difference is not with the water. The difference is what the person is supposed to believe.
Let’s stop right here for a moment.
I never said....the Spirt DOES NOT DWELL WITHIN the Christian. I believe he does. Now the question is......How does he do it?
I do not believe that Christians “today” have any miraculous (which is what you mean by “charismatic”) gifts of the HS today. If they did I would have seen it by now. I travel for a living and I’m around many different people and NEVER have I ever seen a demonstration of ANYTHING. The only thing people can say to me is....your just not in the right places. Really? Is that it? I thought Peter promised “the gift of the HS” to everybody? Why am I the one who never gets to witness it? Pope Frank don’t do nothing.
Maybe. If it happens it’s without my knowledge. I know Paul said...that those in Ephesus were “sealed with the Spirit” but it won’t come as a surprise that I take a different view on that statement. But, if a person wants to believe that the Spirit is doing what you say above I’m not going to argue against them. It’s only when they take it to the next step and say they are miraculously indwelled is when I’m going to have a problem.
The apostles laid hands on people in the first century to impart spiritual gifts for exactly this reason. They didn’t have the fully recorded record of the church. We do now so there is no need for these gifts. Lk 16:31 is still a true statement and is still valid today.
Water baptism is for Jews and Gentiles.
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. Acts 10:44-48
JLB
Why did this happen? Did it have anything to do with their salvation? No. It was for effect to get people’s attention and to to be amazed so they would listen to the message being spoken miraculously.
Why did this Happen? Did it have anything to do with their salvation? No. They were still in their sins. It was just like Pentecost. For effect! For the benefit of the audience and not the person who the Spirit was “upon”. The Jews did not want to have anything to do with the gentiles. Have you read Jonah lately? Did he want that gentile nation to receive mercy from God? That’s why we see the comment.....
“Who can forbid water”. Once they were convinced by the Spirit, they followed through with their conversion.
Yes and the HS did not fall on them or they did not “receive the Spirit” until they came in contact with an apostle. The point here is....It didn’t just happen. So why would anybody think that, today, it just happens?
Again. It didn’t “just happen”. They did not receive the Spirit until coming in contact with an apostle.
Yes. But how does he do this? How does one know they are a “child of God through the Spirit”?
Has the Spirit, through his word, told us how to become a child of God? Absolutely. Gal 3:26-29.
So, when we do what the Spirit tells us to do in order to become a child of God we can then know, in our spirit, that we have been obedient to God and are now a part of his family.
This is what 1 pet 3:21 means when it says...that baptism is the answer to a good conscience. We can know, through the Spirit, that we have done what God asked us to do and for the reason he asked us to do it.
For example.....
All these people out there will tell folks to.....pray a prayer for salvation and then they are told that they then are a child of God. The problem is....GOD NEVER told anybody under the new covenant to do that. So there is no way your personal spirit and the HS are bearing witness together. You see how that works. You don’t get to just make stuff up and then say....I did this through the HS! No you didn’t!
How have we received the Spirit today? Within the context he is talking about knowing what God has revealed. What God wants us to know. Vs 11
We have received that Spirit today through his written word. It does not come through the miraculous. Again, you may say it does and we can argue the point all you want but in the end neither you nor the Pope or anybody else can demonstrate anything for proof. I know...I guess I’m one of the unlucky ones to never be in the right place at the right time. Poor me I guess. Lk 16:31
I will end just like I began. I NEVER said that the Spirt does not dwell within the Christian. I believe he does. Where I differ with most is on the “how”.
Runmyramble
Member
It's already been explained....
I even posted Matthew Henry commentary for you...
You got to be born from above.
I will do my best to explain...in the simplest way....but if you already have a box you view from you may not see....All I can asked is that you open your mind...
The key to upholding the Law is through the faithfulness of Jesus.
Why is upholding the law important?
God as in their day wants to be known and around us...God is Holy and righteous..and that's how we relate to Him
And there is a new and living way called the New Cov....Which is toward obeying the Spirit and not the Letter.
Eternal life is that they may know the only true God and Jesus Christ...
the term "know" implies an intimate relationship
There are natural laws in how things go on to live and what they grow towards.
Adam chose to obey Satan words therefore in Adam we all die...
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Whart's one reason we need to be made alive? Because there is no real life worth living without God and His purpose for us...
So God sends His son to accomplish this...He came that we may have life and have it more abundantly. A person can be alive physically but dead spiritually.
God is not the God of the dead but the living.....
So how do we become able to relate to God .....?
Through His son.
Who dies to reconcile us to God, and resurrects so that we can live by His Spirit/life.
But first one must believe who He is. As Father God revealed who Jesus was to Peter. This belief is with the intent to follow.
Well here one would say we received His Spirit....
With this Spirit comes new direction...and what happens is a new way of living and growing.
So down to the Niddy Griddy-
Recall the old Cov...Man were given the Covenant but Could not keep it...The law is Holy and keeping it is the way in which man relate to God......... The law I believe was called the Law after the Flesh.
So keeping the Law no longer by man's natural ability, their flesh would be the way to righteousness to be in the presence of God(salvation)
There is a new way in which the law that was after the flesh would be upheld. And this was going to be through the faithfulness of Jesus.
Coming under the rule of Christ through belief in who He is with intent to follow is how we enter the kingdom on earth.
Jesus who resurrected in bodily form Lives...and because He does He is a faithful source of salvation- (deliverence, protection, life, hiding place etc)
There is a reason one cannot say they know Him and not keep His words or commands.
Because God is in the light and there is no darkness in Him at all....We can't be in the dark and have Life.
Recall to relate to a Holy God one should be Holy.
Now in my opinion when one is put into Christ they are Justified positional meaning they are called to live set apart from the world for God's purposes.
But here is the issue..We are told to grow in grace...so even though we are Called out to live Holy we still have sin in our lives....
Eternal life which is our salvation is in Christ. In my opinion it's because God is in Christ....And you can have access to God in christ when by the Spirit you put away the deeds of the flesh...This is what it means to come alive.
What is happening is what you begin to practice by heeding to the Spirit that guides you, you become..So when we don't want to turn the other cheek and the Spirit brings the teaching of Christ to our remembrance and we obey from the heart...we are becoming the type of people that from the heart will naturally do what is in the heart (who we are becoming or have become)
If your read the whole chapter of 3 and 4...you find one is to maintain good works that keeps a good conscience, for if one suffers for doing wrong they bring others to God....God is able to use you as a vessel of righteousness.
Now recall one is put in Christ, the answer for a clear conscience is found in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
So what can this mean?
One, to be resurrected you have to be quicken by the Holy Spirit....in His, God made Jesus's body alive-and He had a bodily resurrection. You see His Spirit never died......Why or How did this all happen?
He was obedient unto death by obeying His Father who is Spirit. So He obeyed the Spirit.
Therefore the Holy Spirit is our baptism
that gives us a clear conscience before God, because if that same Spirit that was in Christ is in us it will also quicken our mortal body. So being alive is key, because as I said earlier God is not the God of the dead but the living.
Life breeds Life
So this is the passage that shows how we have a clear conscience before God: 1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
So Jesus is the Light And God is in the light....God is truth and righteousness and Jesus is the way, He is the living word made flesh.
Another words the way to the Father is the son...Jesus's is the way and we are given His Spirit, His life.
So recall if this passage: Roman 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Another words Jesus Died for the Penalty of our sin so that He might bring us to God...
How by giving us His life to feed off of...[life breeds life] by obeying the Spirit (word, teachings).
You see How they ate from Satans words and He brought death, Well eat off God's word and it brings life.
How ? The living Spirit, God is not dead He is alive.
So how we have a good conscience before God is to live by His Spirit;word.
For if we are walking in the light.....we are not walking in the dark. Which is how we put away the deeds of the flesh....
So if you are living by the Spirit you are not living by what you can do in your natural ability; the flesh.
So as you continue to obey you are becoming in the heart the type of person that naturally does who you have become on the outside.
And this is how you uphold the law through the faith(teachings of Jesus)where both your heart and deeds are in alignment where you can have fellowship with God and others.
So this is where He tells the pharasees to first make the inside of the cup clean then it will be cleansed on the outside.
Or first make the tree good and it's fruit will be.
It's our conscience that is the issues...and the conscience is made clear before God as we walk in the Spirit...because as we walk in the Spirit the blood is cleansing us from all sin.
So the Baptism that saves is through the resurrection of Jesus's, His quickening Spirit, that gives life to our soul/spirit that has been seperated from God by sin.
So we are given the Spirit to live by it.
Or walk by it, or one can say heed to it, or be obedient to.
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Again, the Temple in the Old Testament is made of three distinct sections, and typify us the human being in the New Testament.
What part of the Temple did the presence of God, which is typified by the Ark, dwell in?
The outer court?
The holy place?
The holy of holies?
JLB
Great. So you agree we have not been resurrected from the dead, and thus we have not yet received our new, eternal vessel?
JLB
Mungo
Member
I didn't suggest that
At baptism (with water)
I do believe the charismatic gifts of the Spirit are for today as much as at the beginning. They were not just for the apostles. Read 1Cor 12:4-11
Don't you believe the Spirit indwells in people?
Yes, the apostles laid hands on people to impart gifts.
I think you have a misunderstanding of the purpose of the charismatic gifts. They were/are not just to impress people. They are for for ministry, for edifying the Church (1Cor 14:1-19). They are given by the Spirit "who apportions to each one individually as he wills" (1Cor 12:11). But we can ask for them and pray fpor them..
Runmyramble
Member
Hi, aren't you both Catholic?