What is The Baptism that saves us now?

[Mungo]

Yes. But how does he do this? How does one know they are a “child of God through the Spirit”?
Has the Spirit, through his word, told us how to become a child of God? Absolutely. Gal 3:26-29.
So, when we do what the Spirit tells us to do in order to become a child of God we can then know, in our spirit, that we have been obedient to God and are now a part of his family.
This is what 1 pet 3:21 means when it says...that baptism is the answer to a good conscience. We can know, through the Spirit, that we have done what God asked us to do and for the reason he asked us to do it.

I agree with that. I haven't claimed anything different.

For example.....
All these people out there will tell folks to.....pray a prayer for salvation and then they are told that they then are a child of God. The problem is....GOD NEVER told anybody under the new covenant to do that. So there is no way your personal spirit and the HS are bearing witness together. You see how that works. You don’t get to just make stuff up and then say....I did this through the HS! No you didn’t!


How have we received the Spirit today? Within the context he is talking about knowing what God has revealed. What God wants us to know. Vs 11
We have received that Spirit today through his written word. It does not come through the miraculous. Again, you may say it does and we can argue the point all you want but in the end neither you nor the Pope or anybody else can demonstrate anything for proof. I know...I guess I’m one of the unlucky ones to never be in the right place at the right time. Poor me I guess. Lk 16:31

I will end just like I began. I NEVER said that the Spirt does not dwell within the Christian. I believe he does. Where I differ with most is on the “how”.

You are just ranting.

 

[Mungo]

Hi, aren't you both Catholic?

I am. Why would you think Cnkw3 is a Catholic?

 

[Runmyramble]

I was walked into a creek's water as a man dead in trespasses and sins, and I came out a new creature.

Hi, well How did you experience being a new creature?

 

[JLB]

I think I'm still trying to understand something...

We know we were not saved by anything we had done but by the washing of regeneration (WOR)and...renewal of the Holy Ghost...(RHG)

Now...And if I may asked, How would you explain that passage.

In my immediate thought...If the above is not what we have done, then it's what Jesus or God has done.

Because if Jesus was not obedient onto death... there would be no reconciliation and if He did not raise....How would we be able to live by His life...

So is this Speaking of His Baptism into death and His renewal by the Holy Ghost?

So then as to say we are saved by God's faithfulness...

Or is this Speaking of the New birth experience....being put into what Christ has already done...as Positional Justification...or imputed righteousnes...when we trust who He is with intent to follow.

I like where this conversation is going. Thank you.


Could you please post the scripture you are specifically referring to, and ask the question you want me to answer, based on the scripture you are referring to.


I don’t want to give an answer, that comes from me misunderstanding your question or intent.


Thanks. JLB

 

[Runmyramble]

I am. Why would you think Cnkw3 is a Catholic?

Because sadly this thread seemed to be the Chatholics against the Christians.

 

[Runmyramble]

I like where this conversation is going. Thank you.


Could you please post the scripture you are specifically referring to, and ask the question you want me to answer, based on the scripture you are referring to.


I don’t want to give an answer, that comes from me misunderstanding your question or intent.


Thanks. JLB

Yes this is one of those post...I write but fall asleep...and then answer another post...lol..I was trying to read Matthew Henry's commentary...I'm not sure I understood Him well...

But sense it's out there and it would not let me delete it...Here's the passage I am referring to.

Titus 3:5
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This is the Spirit He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life. This saying is trustworthy. And I want you to emphasize these things, so that those who have believed God will take care to devote themselves to good deeds. These things are excellent and profitable for the people.

Actually I should have read the whole thing from the beginning...I see something I did not see before..

But what is your understanding of the 3v5..tks

 

[Cnkw3]

The promise of the Father is made to all.

For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:39




JLB

Don’t change it up. Your comment was based on acts 1:8.
Within that context, it was Jesus that spoke DIRECTLY to the apostles. The text explicitly says so. So, how long did you wait in Jerusalem for you HS baptism? I’m still waiting on that answer. You seem to like his promise but conveniently leave out the other parts of the command.
Now you tie acts 2:39 to acts 1:8?
Was the promise of the baptism of the HS in acts 1 to everyone? No!
Even if the “gift of the HS” in acts 2:38 is the “promise” of vs39 the “gift of the HS” doesn’t mean it is the “baptism of the HS”. If you’ll read some of my above post you’ll see I can prove that it’s not the same thing.

 

[Mungo]

Because sadly this thread seemed to be the Chatholics against the Christians.

Catholics against Christians?
Are you suggesting that Catholics are not Christians?

 

[Runmyramble]

..

 

[Runmyramble]

Catholics against Christians?
Are you suggesting that Catholics are not Christians?

Years ago I was handing out scriptures in the park and I came to a lady who didn't want one because she said she was Catholic and she wasn't a Christian.

 

[Runmyramble]

Catholics against Christians?
Are you suggesting that Catholics are not Christians?

I googled...and this was the first site I seen...hmmmm
Catholicism vs Christianity - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

Catholicism vs Christianity - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

What's the difference between Catholicism and Christianity? Catholicism is the largest denomination of Christianity. All Catholics are Christians, but not all Christians are Catholics. A Christian refers to a follower of Jesus Christ who may be a Catholic, Protestant, Gnostic, Mormon...

www.diffen.com

 

[Cnkw3]

Water baptism is for Jews and Gentiles.

Wait a minute? Being tricky again...
I asked....was JOHNS BAPTISM in water for both Jew and gentile? That was your argument.
I know that great commission baptism in water commanded by Jesus is for everyone, he tells us so.
“Go preach the gospel to EVERY creature.
You are Mr. Tricky.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. Acts 10:44-48



JLB

Ok. Now you are into great commission baptism in water commanded by Jesus. Can you not see this IS NOT “Johns baptism”? This is the water baptism of Mk 16. This is not the baptism of Mk 1.
Those in Mk 1 had to believe that the messiah was coming.
Those in Mk 16 had to believe that he had come and was risen from the dead.
Two totally different belief systems. Baptism is not just about being dunked in water. It matters what you believe when you go into the water.
That’s the main difference between Johns baptism and great commission baptism.

 

[Cnkw3]

I didn't suggest that

You said you thought there was confusion so I wanted to make it clear.

At baptism (with water)

That didn’t happen in acts 8. The text tells us so.

I do believe the charismatic gifts of the Spirit are for today as much as at the beginning. They were not just for the apostles. Read 1Cor 12:4-11

Yes. I’ve heard that one before.

Don't you believe the Spirit indwells in people?

Yes. I said I do.

Yes, the apostles laid hands on people to impart gifts.
I think you have a misunderstanding of the purpose of the charismatic gifts. They were/are not just to impress people. They are for for ministry, for edifying the Church (1Cor 14:1-19).

I don’t misunderstand. I believe what the Bible tells me. I didn’t say...they were “just” to impress people. I said the baptism of the HS in acts 2 and 10 were used for those reasons. The “gifts” were for the work of the church.
They were for revelation and confirmation and yes through this the early church would be able to grow and be edified. Did the early church have the oracles of God for the NT church? Not at the beginning. So how were new converts able to learn, to worship, what were they to pray for? What was accepted and not accepted? We know now. They didn’t.

They are given by the Spirit "who apportions to each one individually as he wills" (1Cor 12:11). But we can ask for them and pray fpor them..

Show me anybody in the NT that prayed to receive a spiritual gift and then baaaam! There it was. In acts 8 the apostles prayed that these converts would receive the Spirit (note that it was the apostles praying and not the new converts) and when did they actually receive the gift? After hands were laid on them.

 

[Cnkw3]

Hi, aren't you both Catholic?

I’m not.

 

[Mungo]

That didn’t happen in acts 8. The text tells us so.

No it doesn't

 

[Mungo]

Show me anybody in the NT that prayed to receive a spiritual gift and then baaaam! There it was. In acts 8 the apostles prayed that these converts would receive the Spirit (note that it was the apostles praying and not the new converts) and when did they actually receive the gift? After hands were laid on them.

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
1 Cor 12 is very clear that the Corinthians were receiving the Charismatic gifts of the Spirit.
Paul wrote because he wanted to make clear to them that they must use them properly.

 

[Cnkw3]

I agree with that. I haven't claimed anything different.


You are just ranting.

No. There was no anger in my explanation. It wasn’t really all that long. Actually I thought it was rather concise.
I was answering your book or whatever it was. How does our spirit and the HS agree? Through the word the Spirit left us. Then I gave an example of the sinners prayer for salvation and I pointed out that the HS NEVER even mentioned that in his word so therefore it could never be done by faith. Rom 10:17.

 

[Cnkw3]

No it doesn't

You said that the HS indwells a Christian at water baptism. The text in acts 8 says this...
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
The text clearly says that the HS had NOT fallen on any of them. I know, I know. Everybody wants to claim that they had received some “non miraculous” indwelling at baptism that nobody can see. Ok, fine..,whatever.
I do not believe the HS is divided. He enters a person for some salvation reason but then he needed a man to come and lay hands on them so they can receive the rest of the Spirit? Really? I just don’t believe that position.

 

[Cnkw3]

That doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Not a very good argument in my opinion. Want to know why? Because you just left the door open to anybody that wants to make up some doctrine and when you say....the Bible doesn't say that. They can just say....well, that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Like the sinners prayer for salvation.

1 Cor 12 is very clear that the Corinthians were receiving the Charismatic gifts of the Spirit.

How did they receive these gifts! By them praying for them?
Please show me any of the churches doing that.
We know through acts 8 that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit did NOT fall on people at baptism. So, when you study you will find they received these gifts through the laying on of hands of an apostle.

Paul wrote because he wanted to make clear to them that they must use them properly.

Don’t disagree.

 

[Mungo]

You said that the HS indwells a Christian at water baptism. The text in acts 8 says this...
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
The text clearly says that the HS had NOT fallen on any of them. I know, I know. Everybody wants to claim that they had received some “non miraculous” indwelling at baptism that nobody can see. Ok, fine..,whatever.
I do not believe the HS is divided. He enters a person for some salvation reason but then he needed a man to come and lay hands on them so they can receive the rest of the Spirit? Really? I just don’t believe that position.

It says the apostles came that they "might receive the Holy Spirit". But in what way had they not received the Holy Spirit?
Remember that in post #610 I pointed out that there are two ways that we "receive the Holy Spirit"; the Spirit within and the Spirit upon.
Which is this? Well it tells us "it had not yet fallen on any of them". That is the Spirit upon.

The Holy Spirit indwells at baptism is shown by Peters address in Acts 2 -And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Paul writes:
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27).
And he links that to receiving the indwelling of Holy Spirit
But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; 22 he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (2Cor 1:21-22)

It was prophesied by Ezekial (Ez 36)
25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you [Baptism], and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.
26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.